So what does happen to the KingPriest? A lifetime of eternal torment in the Abyss? Does he go to Paladine's realm anyway? There is no denying the faith of the Kingpriest had in Paladine overall. Does he get 'punished' by getting turned into a Death Knight? Or Rewarded by getting turned into a Kirin, for example?
Originally posted by talinthas
well, DL14 seems to indicate that the kingpriest became a giant monster under the blood sea. Other theories say that he's a lich, or that he just died.
You know, the Bloodsea monster doesn't really make sense. It is this massive creature/demon that creates a living storm at the bottom of the waters but we have no real idea how it got there. Why would Paladine or Takhisis summon it? I would say that Paladine summons it to keep the ruins of Istar from being disturbed by plunderers.. but the Sea Elves live there. I would say that Takhisis summoned it to hide her theft of the temple, but I don't think a monster and a storm would fool Paladine. The Character of Beldyn doesn't seem to match a mindless bloodthirsty monster. If Kurnos had been the Kingpreist when Istar fell beneath the waves perhaps, but not the contrite and truly good Beldyn. He would turn into a monster that relfected his overwhelming guilt.
So where did this thing come from... and where did it go?
Originally posted by ferratus
So where did this thing come from... and where did it go?
The King of the Deep is a nod to Lovecraft, obviously. It's a Cthulhu-like abomination abiding in Istar's R'lyeh-like ruins, specifically the Pit of Istar (where the Temple once resided.)
In actuality, it's a collective mind, created from the hellish wills of 10 former priests of Istar, who were sent back from the Abyss by Takhisis as calcified statues whose eyes are windows into their mistress' realm. The King of the Deep is a conglomerate of all the priests, bent towards evil and hatred, guiding the attack on the undersea realm for the Dark Queen. Each priest's body can be animated by this group mind for defense, but the many-tentacled squidlike form of the King of the Deep is formidable enough.
Thus, the Kingpriest himself has nothing at all to do with the creature, and it is in fact part of Takhisis overall plot to dominate Ansalon and Krynn. I think it's one of the more dangerous and clever scenarios in the series, making DL12 an excellent soucebook and resource as well as adventure module.
Cheers,
Cam
I wonder if anyone was foolish enough to retreive them to the surface sometime during the 5th Age. The idea that the elf preist Quarath is in some sorcerer's labaratory is enough to make me shiver.
Cheers,
Cam
In DLA the Maelstrom influenced the continent a lot. Basically I want to know if the Glacier in Icereach is melting, and if the Plains of Dust are receiving more rainfall these days. I wouldn't mind either. There is too much desert on Krynn these days with the Blue Wastes and the Desolation. Plus, if Icereach melts it would open up all the ruins of the Winterheim empire that Doug Niles recently described in his books.
Originally posted by ferratus
Ah, yes I remember them. Of course the question now is, what happened to the advisors of the Kingpreist? Slain in the Chaos War? Simply decide that creating that beastie of the deeps wasn't worth their time?
I wonder if anyone was foolish enough to retreive them to the surface sometime during the 5th Age. The idea that the elf preist Quarath is in some sorcerer's labaratory is enough to make me shiver.
I don't think Quarath was a True Cleric though, he all but admitted it,a s he did not have the abillity to heal. He was really just an administrator and noble.
In the Kingpriest Trilogy, he had griffons waiting to take him to Silvanesti, but was crushed by pillars as he was reaching their area.
Of course, in Time of the Twins, he got crushed anyway when he tried to restrain Cyrsannia and Tasslehoff and the Cataclysm happened.
Do you all think that in the KingPriest Trilogy, it was good to have used hte 'original' storyline of Fistandantilus and Pheragar and Denubus? Or should it have openly been Raistlin/Caramon/Crysannia?
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
I don't think Quarath was a True Cleric though, he all but admitted it,a s he did not have the abillity to heal. He was really just an administrator and noble.
Oh, he doesn't have to be a true cleric to be cursed to become a monster. Lord Soth after all, wasn't a true Solamnic Knight either.
Do you all think that in the KingPriest Trilogy, it was good to have used hte 'original' storyline of Fistandantilus and Pheragar and Denubus? Or should it have openly been Raistlin/Caramon/Crysannia?
I think it was a stroke of genius. I already knew the Raistlin/Caramon/Crysania story. By changing the characters, Chris Pierson kept me interested in the machinations of the archmage Fistandantilus and how everything would turn out, where otherwise I probably would have just skipped past those pages dealing with the subplot.
Originally posted by ferratus
I think it was a stroke of genius. I already knew the Raistlin/Caramon/Crysania story. By changing the characters, Chris Pierson kept me interested in the machinations of the archmage Fistandantilus and how everything would turn out, where otherwise I probably would have just skipped past those pages dealing with the subplot.
I agree, although Caramon was seen in the Kingpriest Trilogy, was he not? I had the strong impression that the "Barbarian" in the Arena was none other than a time-traveling Caramon (it's been quite some time since I read Legends).
Also, when Beldinas had the impression that someone was hiding behind the curtain as the Cataclysm fell, wasn't the one hiding Crysania or Tasslehoff?
I simply can't recall who it was.
the best part of this original arc was that we saw how the disks of mishakal got to xak tsaroth =)
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
I really liked the KingPriest trilogy. It's such a shame that Krynn's rich heritage has been flushed down the toliet by allt he 5th age crap that came out.
There are about a hundred better ways to get across your feelings and thoughts about recent materials than this. Right?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Loralon
I agree, although Caramon was seen in the Kingpriest Trilogy, was he not? I had the strong impression that the "Barbarian" in the Arena was none other than a time-traveling Caramon (it's been quite some time since I read Legends).
Also, when Beldinas had the impression that someone was hiding behind the curtain as the Cataclysm fell, wasn't the one hiding Crysania or Tasslehoff?
I simply can't recall who it was.
It was Tasslehoff.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that Tas would never have been born if it had not been for his time-travelling saving of some far-distant ancestor, leading to the inevitable paradox of his never having existed to go back in time and so on, and being able to solve it once and for all by saying 'Yeah, but there are loads of other inconsistencies in DL', hah, beat that 'science'.
Originally posted by pddisc
It is entirely possible that there was a different kender that had somehow managed to sneak into the Kingpriest's inner sanctum, and Tas, by travelling through time, inadvertantly saved.
Not really. As we have learned in Legends and War of Souls the way time travel works is...it is impossible to change the past. And for humans, elves, and ogres (and I would assume Bakali as well) it is impossible to change the future if it is known (you know, the whole addage, "To know the future is to be trapped by it). However, if you are a memeber of a chaos-touched race, it is possible to change the future.
It's kind of complicated...but if you get the Annotated Legends and read the appendix on time travel, it makes much more sense.
Tas was not able to change the flow of the River of Time from the past. Even if Caramon and Tas had not traveled into the past, only a few years after Legends the world would have been destroyed...because the history books were wrong. Everyone thought Fistandantilus (or Raistlin...whatever) died in that blast at Zhaman...the truth was, he succeeded, but no one was to realize it until it was too late.
However, Tas, being a chaos-touched being, was able to effect the flow of the River of Time and avoid a future he had seen. He was able to change the path and keep Raistlin from destroying the world (because he saved Tanis, who saved Caramon, who convinced Raistlin not to go through with it).
Clear as mud, eh?
Originally posted by talinthas:
the barbarian was also in the original legends trilogy. He just happened to die because caramon was there to replace him. same with denubis and crysania.
The gladiator Caramon replaced in the timestream was Pheragas. Not the Barbarian.
The Barbarian was Quarath's gladiator who Caramon killed due to the plans of Lord Onygion. However, in the Kingpriest Trilogy (and about 9 months earlier), the Barbarian kills one of Lord Onygion's gladiators, Valeric. Apparently the two of them had been knocking each other's gladiators off repeatively for a while even at that point.
It was only when Caramon stepped in did Onygion get the idea to use Fistandantilus' gladiator to do the killing (for misdirection purposes). I don't know if Onygion used somebody else in the original timeline or not for the same trick.
Originally posted by carteeg
The gladiator Caramon replaced in the timestream was Pheragas. Not the Barbarian.
The Barbarian was Quarath's gladiator who Caramon killed due to the plans of Lord Onygion. However, in the Kingpriest Trilogy (and about 9 months earlier), the Barbarian kills one of Lord Onygion's gladiators, Valeric. Apparently the two of them had been knocking each other's gladiators off repeatively for a while even at that point.
It was only when Caramon stepped in did Onygion get the idea to use Fistandantilus' gladiator to do the killing (for misdirection purposes). I don't know if Onygion used somebody else in the original timeline or not for the same trick.
As I recall, the whole 'Caramon killing the Barbarian' thing was a plot on Raistlin's part, along with the Dwarf master of the games, to see how Caramon was progressing. The Dwarf later was much amused with Raistlin's plotting, loved how he thought.
Originally posted by carteeg
Not the initial murder of the Barbarian. That was the Lord who wanted to frame Fistandantilus for Quarath's guy's murder, although Arack assisted in it because he wanted to 'educate' Caramon the way the gladiatorial games were sometimes used by the nobles. The 'Test' that was set up by Raistlin was the final fight that begun about the same time as the Kingpriest's prayer. In that Test, Pheragas and Kiiri were given real weapons and were made to believe (but not all that successfully) that Caramon betrayed them by attempting to escape (or something of the sort). Pheragas and Kiiri were convinced by Caramon that they were being tricked and instead assisted Caramon in getting by the Red Minotaur, Raag, and Arack in order to escape. Unfortunately, although successful, both died in the attempt.
Well, when Arrack catches Caramon trying to sneak out of the Arena, he lay's it all down on the line.
He said how Raistlin wanted his first test to see how he was progressing, and thus the death of the Barbarian. Arrack laughed because he loved how Raistilin 'was'. He said that Raistlin approached him earlier how the first test was relatively easy, and he only wanted a gladiator who was the best. So they came up with the Caramon fighting Pheragas and Kiiri with Caramon having a fake weapons. Arrack loved it.
When Caramon refused, Arrack laughed even more, saying how he and the wizard must be kin. "He said you would say that, no doubt, so if he does, tell him that if he does not, Pheragas and Kiiri will fight the minotaurs with fake weapons and the Minotaurs will have real weapons."
Even the Ogre who n ever spoke laughed as Arrack was revealing Raistlin's plans.
When the KingPriest makes his demand of Paladine, there is actually a manifestation of Paladine. The Kingpriest realizes the error of his sin, but when he pleads Paladine for forgiveness, Paladine speaks.
The answer is NO.
THe KingPriest is of full acknowledgement of what he brought upon this world, which was notably different then Lord Soth at the end of his life. But the Kingpriest begged forgiveness even as he saw the end coming, whereas Soth had that final chance to do some good by saving his son for the trials ahead.
Still the way the gods of Krynn seem to 'reward' and punish are very difficult to understand. If the Kingpriest goes to the Abyss, I can imagine his sould will truely be something the queen of darkness will take great pride in tormenting thruout the ages.
But the way the Gods of Krynn rewards wrongdoers, it seems more likely that the KingPriest would be turned into a ArchLich or Vampire Lord perhaps. BUt if the Kingpriest at his core remained dedicated to good (and even at the moment he demanded power from Paladine), he was still dedicated to good, that I don't know.
So i believed that the Kingpriest got his redemption after being killed and seeing how wrong he was.
"No"
This seems out of character but the Kingpriest didn't even KNOW why he made his mistakes. All he knew was that Paladine was unhappy with him.
That is worthy of damnation with the sheer volume of evil he'd done.
His actions in his final moments strike me more as those of fear than true repentance.
Originally posted by carteeg
The gladiator Caramon replaced in the timestream was Pheragas. Not the Barbarian.
The Barbarian was Quarath's gladiator who Caramon killed due to the plans of Lord Onygion. However, in the Kingpriest Trilogy (and about 9 months earlier), the Barbarian kills one of Lord Onygion's gladiators, Valeric. Apparently the two of them had been knocking each other's gladiators off repeatively for a while even at that point.
It was only when Caramon stepped in did Onygion get the idea to use Fistandantilus' gladiator to do the killing (for misdirection purposes). I don't know if Onygion used somebody else in the original timeline or not for the same trick.
Actually, Caramon didn't replace anyone during the Istar part of the timeline, he just became an extra gladiator. He befriends Pheragas, and does kill the Barbarian (who tells Caramon not to worry about him because he'd done his share of killing; a nod to our first look at Quarath's payoff in book 3), but that was by Raist/Fisti's doing (not Onygion's). Raist wanted to make sure Caramon was up to the task. Caramon then takes Pheragas' place in the timeline after that because Raist thinks he can control his brother and his destiny by changing who he takes forward in time with him.
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Paladine was specific
"No"
This seems out of character but the Kingpriest didn't even KNOW why he made his mistakes. All he knew was that Paladine was unhappy with him.
That is worthy of damnation with the sheer volume of evil he'd done.
I disagree. The Kingpriest definitely realized what he had done, and Paladine, the bumbling bafoon that he was in the DRAGONS and TWINS trilogy all of a sudden is a total hard case.
Remember Paladine didn't come back for 300 years because people's anger was so great because of the Kingpriest's warping of his faith
"I'm sorry" doesn't fix it without some smacking around
Originally posted by Rath the Ranger
Actually, Caramon didn't replace anyone during the Istar part of the timeline, he just became an extra gladiator. He befriends Pheragas, and does kill the Barbarian (who tells Caramon not to worry about him because he'd done his share of killing; a nod to our first look at Quarath's payoff in book 3), but that was by Raist/Fisti's doing (not Onygion's). Raist wanted to make sure Caramon was up to the task. Caramon then takes Pheragas' place in the timeline after that because Raist thinks he can control his brother and his destiny by changing who he takes forward in time with him.
Sorry this post seemed to rehash stuff you guys already discussed, but when I read this thread yesterday your posts about Caramon and the games weren't here, I guess the whole thread didn't get loaded when I opened it.
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The Kingpriest commited genocide, murdered wizardry (including white robes), and in general made a mockery out of his church with his powers.
Remember Paladine didn't come back for 300 years because people's anger was so great because of the Kingpriest's warping of his faith
"I'm sorry" doesn't fix it without some smacking around
Paladine was quite forgiving of Raistlin even at the end of Raistlin's life; he also even told Tanis and Caramon that the Kingpriest "Was a Good Man" or something like that.
I have always had a problem in the original trilogy, that I believe the Gods of Light should always be pushing the pendulum to their side and that the gods of darkness doing the opposite, making it the role of the Gods of Neutrality to hold things in the middle. I think it would have been more fitting if Fizban had been Gilean all along, trying to restore balance.
Perhaps the actions of the KingPriest drove Gillean to side with Takhisis in the balance of the universe, and that combined with Paladine's realization of what the KingPriest did was enough to force Paladine to put his power into the Cataclysm, knowing full well the results will allow Takhisis to get around the banishment Huma imposed upon her.
I have to think, in some manner, that Paladine did owe it to his cleric to at a minimum protect his soul from the Queen of Darkness. And if there was some sort of true repentence on the KingPriest part, perhaps transforming him into a Kirin or Phoenix would be appropriate.
Or, if the twisted Gods of Light irony continues, he gets transformed into a Lich of somekind, I guess? He would have to be more powerfull then Lord Soth.