My question is this: How did faith in gods die off during the Cleansing Wars? Did the sorcerer-kings work overtime to purge the worship of fake gods from Athas? Or would the faiths of the Green Age have simply died due to the horrors of the Wars?
--this is one element of Athas I could never quite understand NB
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
We know for a fact that during the Green Age, Athasian grossly misinterpreted where clerics got their spells from and prayed to false deities. We also know they'd been doing this for most of the Green Age and the Time of Magic.
Well there went my idea I thought was unique. I was going to create a new region were instead of worshipping elements, the clerics worshipped a god associated with that element. Instead of being a fire cleric, they would be a cleric of the God of fire, Lohn or something like that. This came about due to man's need to create the divine out of something they do not understand. I could easily see Dark Sun clerics being priests to a false god. However, I am wonder if, indeed, in all D&D worlds, there really is no Gods, but rather only elemental forces, and it is the beings who say they worship a God.
As for your question, the SKs probably did that to consolidate their rule. Any sort of religion always competes with a King, unless he is the head of the religion. A competing priest class would be a threat to a SK's rule. In the early days, there were probably many different religions, but as the immortal SK's rule continued, all religion was snuffed out. In a centuries and forgoten. There are remains of religion in Draj and Gulg. The SKs just assumed they were the head of the religion, then, over time, become the actual God, since they are indeed God-like.
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
My question is this: How did faith in gods die off during the Cleansing Wars?
The Sks had aspirtations to godhood themselves... stands to reason they'd stomp on other religions.
That and the elimination of an entire species tends to curtail that species' religious practices.
Let's say some intrepid explorer discovers a catch of scrolls and begins worshiping this false god again. If the new worshiper proceeds correctly, shouldn't they be able to tap into the same source of power that they original worshipers did? Won't that convince some people of the veracity of the false god? Couldn't a cult spring up? Even if they are worshiping a false god, as long as it meets basic prerequisites of a religion, does it matter that the god doesn't really exist? It still presents moral stories, emotional support and a sense of hope in its worshippers (all depending on the teachings of the religion, of course).
I do think that the SKs stomped out most of the religious worship in Athas. Also, as various communities were killed, they're worshipping practices where probably destroyed as well. I think they probably did it to avoid the competition for when they became all powerful overlords.
I'm by no means an expert on this subject. I would go out on a limb here and say that it seems that the SKs have two approached to teh whole godhood issue. Some see religion as soma for the masses, perform a few tricks and get their worship as a god and the people will do what you want. Others seem to say, don't bother me, I have no desire to do parlor tricks for the peons. They'll do what I say or I'll crush them. There are varying degrees to these approaches, but I think it about covers the SKs.
I must say, if an SK came along and told me that they were a god, I'd be hard pressed not to believe them. They can do some pretty extraordinary things. This bothers me as, from what I recall, whenever the question of whether a given city population believes that their SK is a god or not, many of them say no, they don't. Perhaps a way of explaining this is the movement of the merchants from city-state to city-state. Perhaps they're spreading stories of the SKs mortality.
Here's my little heretical thought.
I think religion plays a much more important role in the tyr region than the books let on. For example, some religions did survive the Cleansing War, or where mutated into something new. I'll have to go through my material to find the references but I seem to recall the worship by some elf tribes of 'the first runner.' It also seemed to me that they had a culture of ancestor worship.
There are more of these things scattered through the suppliments. One of these days I'm going to compile and expand on them, working them into the fabric of the various cultures of the Tablelands.
Are you saying that by cheer belief, the said worshiper can cast spells from a source that theorically doesn't exist??? I can understant druid's source of magic ( Spirits of the lands) but cleric of the green age?? nha!! They had to be like our religious on earth: they beleive on miracles (and some sware they have witness at least one) but none of them are spell casters or if you prefer, miracle makers.
Take for example The feathered serpent. He was worshiped for what he could achive for its people. (maybe even cast spell. But his clergy couldn't do the same. Unless The Feathered serpent had a way to bestow arcane energies through his most trusted worshiper/clerics. Or maybe The Feathered Serpent possessed a powerfull magical artifact(taken from one of Rajaat's champions Or maybe just found) that could do just that: bestow arcane or psionic energies which the worshipers of the great serpent could use in the service of their God.
"We know for a fact that during the Green Age, Athasian grossly misinterpreted where clerics got their spells from and prayed to false deities. We also know they'd been doing this for most of the Green Age and the Time of Magic."
Jihun-Nish:
"how can a worshiper of a FALSE god be able to cast spell supposedly bestowed from the said FALSE god??"
Because, through the process of worshiping a FALSE god, the worshiper is unknowingly taping into some other power. Since the worshiper doesn't know any better, they assume that it is the power of the FALSE god bestowing power. A religion then grows around that gift of power and gains more worshipers.
My question revolves around the social impact of diety worship. Often, the fact that Athas has no contact with the god plane (or however all that cosmic mumbo jumbo goes) is refered to and then the statement is made that most people on Athas with half a brain wouldn't BELIEVE in gods because of this.
Personally, I think that there would probably be quite a bit of misguided worshiping going on on Athas. There are hints of it smattered through the flavor suppliments published.
Where does the power come from? Maybe its misguided elemental worship. Maybe the belief system somehow subconsciously trains the devotee to tap into preserving/defiling power as a Sorcerer. Perhaps the religion develops the initiates latent psionic abilities.
It might be important to stress here that I'm not really proposing any mechanical changes in the game. I'm just talking about flavor here and exploring a possible direction that can be expanded on to enrich the idea of Athas.
and guys, settle down, BOLD implies that you are yelling (and nobody listens then) ;) italics imply accent
In Ravenloft, nobody's really sure where the divine spell energy comes from, but there are plenty of religions... So the whole "false deity" thing isn't Athas-specific- All that seems necessary is that something grants the spells of priests... One Ravenloft deity, Zhakata, is no more real than the Badna, but his priests can still sling their spells.
It's even easier if you view DS as a distinct cosmology- then the answer for "why can clerics cast spells when there are nog gods?" becomes, "Because."
Originally posted by kefka
darn those atheists that wrote the cannon material for not telling us why gods never existed
and guys, settle down, BOLD implies that you are yelling (and nobody listens then) ;) italics imply accent
Hum Hum, For your information this is bold and THIS IS IN CAPITAL LETTERS and no, I'm not screaming here. I just think that italic words have a tendancy to be read unnoticed.;)
I was...
Now I'm really embarrassed....
It's just that I GET SOOOOO ANGRY!!!!!!!!
(where's my prozac.....!?)
Originally posted by leopardmessiah
You guys need to play more Planescape, that would clear up your questions.
Well then leopardm, how about explaining what you can of this? If you dont mind.
You guys need to play more Planescape, that would clear up your questions.
I think your missing the point of the thread, as well as the train of thought going on, no offense. I'm a huge fan of planescape myself as well, but I don't think there's anything in the PS setting that could help out much with the idea of actual 'false god worship' since in PS, there are no false gods.
I really like Dawnstealer's idea that the elemental lords posed as divine beings back in the Green Age, perhaps as a way to get a foot in the door of Athas, so to speak. I'm presuming there are quite a few elemental lords of each variety, so hence, many of the religions themselves can appear very different from one another. We're given almost zilch in the way of concrete examples of these religions. Merely some obscure references involving Lions and the Wind Dukes (although its never even said if these were religious, cultural, or some other kind of group). If it were the elemental lords posing, perhaps they've established themselves well enough that they have dropped the masquerade.
That idea of elemental lords posing as gods is interesting. Anyway, much apologies.
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
how can a worshiper of a FALSE god be able to cast spell supposedly bestowed from the said FALSE god??If he can, where does the power come from??
From the Universal Source, that was really the only relvance of PS to this discussion, and I see it's already been answered, I'll make sure to properly check a thread before replying in future.
Specifically, the Athar can still get spells, so why shouldn't priests of false gods?
The Athar don't worship a specific divine being, but an all encompasing aspect of divinity, that which is above even the gods themselves. While never given credible proof in the PS line, it seemed to me that if it was given such a concrete accounting, then it may very well be true (or at the worst, at least something that cannot be disproved). Even still, they are worshiping something that exists on the outer planes, and Athas is fortunately cut off from the planes. Even the old 2e rule of lower level spells being powered by belief alone wouldn't neccesarily apply, since the wellspring for those spells is still the essence of the planes. Its a good idea though, one I'll probably sit and mull around with in the old brain box.
Now, myself though, I run a closed Athas where the outer planes and other worlds/settings simply don't exist. Makes it much easier to answer questions from pestering players about bringing their dual scimitar weilding drow through some kind of portal into Athas.
So, hopefully you can see a little of the dilema on the discussion about false gods and the possibility of the 'worshipers' having spellcasting.
Back on topic though, something just occured to me. Does it really matter if the worshipers of these false gods had any kind of granted powers? In real life you don't normally pick your religion or church based on what kind of mojor your pastor or rahbi is slinging? Why would the Green Age be any different. Religion is about faith and belief first and foremost, not about spellcasting and granting powers. Perhaps thats half the reason for them dying off is that they, in the end, could do absolutely nothing to help the congregations against the Warbringer, so most people looking for devout worship turned instead to worshiping the elemental planes and the power that such a decision brought with it. In time, the masses simply remembered the religions who impacted them most, which would likely be the elemental clerics (err, priests, dang 3e) and forgot about these false faiths.
Would the priest's god begin to take an active interest in this strange world, and provoke cataclysmic changes to Athas as the God demonstrates his or her power in the world?
An interesting thought.
I know there wasn't any information on Athas' crystal sphere in Spelljammer, and only small cross-overs into the Ravenloft setting(The Defiler Lich comes to mind). But Athas, and the Dark Sun setting has the least impact out of any of the current, or retired settings to the rest of the Prime Material Plane(At least, according to the 2nd edition Dragon Kings book).
Although the Gith of the Tablelands were orginally Githyanki from the Astral Plane.
I've done something in my DS conversion that has a link with this topic, I believe...
The worship of false elemental gods is actually described in Earth Air Fire and Water when talking about more primitive cultures and shamans, their elemental clerics. The material specifically states that shaman more often worship "The god of the volcano" than the paraelement of magma itself.
Now, the way I've translated this into DS3.5 is by using adepts.
Adepts, divine spellcasters, had no real role in a setting where elements pact with clerics and the spirit of the land pacts with druids. However, adepts could represent those who form limited pacts with the elements, results of misunderstood communication and partial worship, since they do not revere the element directly, resulting in less actual casting power of the NPC class.
This allowed to show this aspect of religious devotion flavor-wise and mechanical-wise while incorporating one of the core NPC classes into a existence of its own, seting it aparty from the clerics more than by simply being "less powerful".
Note that their spell list is slightly modified though, to fit with their elemental patrons, just as the cleric.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
What if a priest from another world for Example: A priest of Tyr of the Forgotten Realms setting, were to journey to Athas from his or her homeworld via portal, spelljammer or Astral Travel, and start spreading his or her religion on Athas?
Would the priest's god begin to take an active interest in this strange world, and provoke cataclysmic changes to Athas as the God demonstrates his or her power in the world?
This has been covered in past DS products.
Essentially, the conduits necessary for a god to transfer power to Athas don't exist. Cut off by the Grey. Which means that your priest of Tyr would show up on Athas, and basically drop completely off of Tyr's radar.
It's not a matter of there just "not" being any gods, it's that god's (as core D&D defines them) can't exist on Athas.
I'd imagine some Gods would be immune to this effect, but those in question are so powerful and incomprehendable that the Grey cannot prevent them from invoking their will on the World. An example of this is Dark Powers of Ravenloft who, used the mists to snatch people and places from Athas, like an entire city on the Silt Sea(Mentioned in Ravenloft Monstrious Compendium Two).
It is doubtless better for the Prime (the Planes can probably cope) that Athas is locked off, if life-shaped items ever got out then they might have a huge impact- how would the Athas halflings react to normal halflings, if they were willing to trade secrets then....
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
I'd imagine some Gods would be immune to this effect, but those in question are so powerful and incomprehendable that the Grey cannot prevent them from invoking their will on the World. An example of this is Dark Powers of Ravenloft who, used the mists to snatch people and places from Athas, like an entire city on the Silt Sea(Mentioned in Ravenloft Monstrious Compendium Two).
Kalidnay.
I also wouldn't consider the Dark Powers of Ravenloft a "god" and would instead consider it as a undefinable power that can't be affected by any means abeit highly powerful epic rituals like those presented in the novels, and even then they should backfire at some point and not work as intended.
I'd still argue though that the basic forces of belief are still at work: Clerical magic is essentially belief made matter, (of course, the belief of one person, no matter how devout, isn't enough for this, you need a large pool of worshippers)
IIRC what happened what that a Netherese wizard (remember, these where the guys (although not THE guy) who made Karsus Avatar ) cast an incredibly high-level spell that basically sealed of Athas from the rest of the multiverse: No spells can breach it, no spelljammers penetrate it's sphere, no divine power reach through the shell.
I know my memory can be a bit fuzzy at times . . . err . . what was I saying? Anyhow, I don't really recall any FR influence in the developement of Athas. Nor can I really see any justification for such. Assuming both worlds used the same timeline of years, the Blue Age of Athas corresponds with the time of Netheril on FR (and a very ancient Blue Age at that). I don't see why some wizard would have blocked off some waterworld from the outer planes and the rest of the prime and damning all its dead souls to purgatory till the end of time. If he did, it certainly would have been during the Blue Age since the rhulisti don't have any religious hold overs to speak of. What's the source for this? Not trying to flame you or anything, just curious.
I'd still argue though that the basic forces of belief are still at work: Clerical magic is essentially belief made matter, (of course, the belief of one person, no matter how devout, isn't enough for this, you need a large pool of worshippers)
If this were true, then Athas would have had real gods during the Green Age, and not false ones since by the power of mutual belief, gods would have been born to the world through their followers. Elemental priests probably go their entire lives without using the words faith, worship, or belief. More than likely these religious virtues are replaced by concepts like servitude and pact. The elemental lords don't simply grant divine magic to someone who prays hard every day. They grant it to the most usefull tools that will work hard for the element's goal of dominance. Belief and faith have little to do with it.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I know my memory can be a bit fuzzy at times . . . err . . what was I saying? Anyhow, I don't really recall any FR influence in the developement of Athas. Nor can I really see any justification for such. Assuming both worlds used the same timeline of years, the Blue Age of Athas corresponds with the time of Netheril on FR (and a very ancient Blue Age at that). I don't see why some wizard would have blocked off some waterworld from the outer planes and the rest of the prime and damning all its dead souls to purgatory till the end of time. If he did, it certainly would have been during the Blue Age since the rhulisti don't have any religious hold overs to speak of. What's the source for this? Not trying to flame you or anything, just curious.
If this were true, then Athas would have had real gods during the Green Age, and not false ones since by the power of mutual belief, gods would have been born to the world through their followers. Elemental priests probably go their entire lives without using the words faith, worship, or belief. More than likely these religious virtues are replaced by concepts like servitude and pact. The elemental lords don't simply grant divine magic to someone who prays hard every day. They grant it to the most usefull tools that will work hard for the element's goal of dominance. Belief and faith have little to do with it.
As to the first: As I said this is only as I recall, I remember seeing a tidbit about it somewhere though, I am (quite probably) wrong since I know little about either DS or FR. (I know the name of the spell though, Seal Crystal Sphere)
And that is not a function of what they perceive the elements to demand of them? :D
I could imagine a future age on Athas taking place where the Grey's power begins to wane, and Gods begin noticing the tiny world of Athas, it would be interesting how a people who have never known belief in a higher power suddenly deal with it as Gods arrive on their world, and how the Sorcerior Kings react to their arrival.
B) Don't bring gods that can function to my world either, heh.
:D
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Maybe Arilou, but that would be imposing the Planescape setting's underlying force upon Dark Sun, which is, although part of the same multiverse, its own setting, therefore, the Rule of Threes and Belief and all other such stuff that makes Planescape great, may or may not apply(This is according to the DM)
I could imagine a future age on Athas taking place where the Grey's power begins to wane, and Gods begin noticing the tiny world of Athas, it would be interesting how a people who have never known belief in a higher power suddenly deal with it as Gods arrive on their world, and how the Sorcerior Kings react to their arrival.
Oh, I wouldn't think there would be any gods on Athas anytime soon, simply put there aren't enough people to believe in them and too many people to object should people start. The elements though, are easy to believe in.
Now, clearly, the Black SPine implies (maybe even states) that the Gith and Githyanki are related. There were hints dropped in some writting of the Wanderer that the Gith were actually elves once.
Anyone remember seeing this?
I was just wondering, from a hypothetical point of view, what would happen, so don't worry, I'm not part of the "Free Athas" camp. There is nothing to prevent Athasians from serving Elemental Gods(Who dwell in the Elemental Planes) in my mind however, its even possible that Athasian Elemental clerics already do(who knows, maybe the Inner Planes are alive, which would explain alot).
I could also imagine the Alienist(detailed in the old 2nd edition book, Player's Option:Spells and Magic), existing on Athas in isolated areas as mad hermits. (For the ignorant, Alienists are wizards or priests who get their magical power, not from Gods as mortals tradionally know them, but from beings of such incomprehendable power(and evil) that they make the Gods look like insects by comparison.)
Gith were orginally Githyanki colonists from the Astral Plane, who accessed the world threw one of the extremely rare Astral gateways into the world. That portal was permanently closed by a Athasian native of incredible power(presumably the Dragon, or perhaps another Dragon, even more powerful entity living on Athas, such as a Super-Dragon living far away from the Tyr region). The Githyanki colonists probably breeded with Elves sometime in the past(yuck), to reduce elimination by inbreeding, hench, the Athasian Giths were born.
It was also mentioned in one book(I think it was the Guide to the Astral Plane), that the Githyanki are still trying to reacess the world, by reopening the portal(all attempts have failed).
Theres also another Astral Race, the Psiolons(A race of evil Psionic Worms) which seek to enter Athas and conquer it, but like the Githyanki, all attempts have failed(The Psiolons sent a scout to Athas, which was devoured by an Athasian Rok, only his eye remained, which is now a powerful Athasian Psionic Artifact(featured in the old 2nd edition Darksun accessory, Artifacts of Athas, or the old 1994 Dragon magazine article of the same name).
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
It was also mentioned in one book(I think it was the Guide to the Astral Plane), that the Githyanki are still trying to reacess the world, by reopening the portal(all attempts have failed).
That is what Return to Blackspine is all about, mwuahahaha.
(The Psiolons sent a scout to Athas, which was devoured by an Athasian Rok, only his eye remained, which is now a powerful Athasian Psionic Artifact(featured in the old 2nd edition Darksun accessory, Artifacts of Athas, or the old 1994 Dragon magazine article of the same name).
Damn, did I miss one?
What artifact was that bcause I thought I converted all the Athas artifacts from BoA.
Oh wait, nevermind, you mean it was featured in PAoA, gotcha.
Dragon #234 had an article by Kevin Mekla called "Artifacts of Athas". None of the five had been in PAoA and some of the items had featured in the PP series:
Chatkcha of the Great One
Crown of the Dwarven Kings
Dragonskin
Eye of Psurlon
Rvk'choel.
Kinda cool, especially the chatkcha, if you're obsessed with the kreen great one, like I am...
Originally posted by Kamelion
They're called psurlons, I think
Dragon #234 had an article by Kevin Mekla called "Artifacts of Athas". None of the five had been in PAoA and some of the items had featured in the PP series:
Chatkcha of the Great One
Crown of the Dwarven Kings
Dragonskin
Eye of Psurlon
Rvk'choel.
Kinda cool, especially the chatkcha, if you're obsessed with the kreen great one, like I am...
Damn, going to have to snag that Dragon issue then, hehe.
1. They have the insectoid feel of Darksun
2. They are innately Psionic, and so powerful Psionically that they even destroyed their own homeworld, and such, are currently looking for a new homeworld off of the Astral Plane(Although that two they seek to dominate).
3. Some of the Psiolons are so powerful that they could compete with the Sorcerior kings, and even run their own new city states like a Sorcerior King would. I could even imagine them mimicing the Sorcerior King's ability to impart Templar abilities on followers, only in their case, only Psionic abilities would be granted(A Psionic Templar?)
Interesting possibilties all..
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
The Psurlons would diffenitely make a great villain(or maybe even PC) race for Dark Sun, as they forefill all the requirements for Dark Sun races
1. They have the insectoid feel of Darksun
2. They are innately Psionic, and so powerful Psionically that they even destroyed their own homeworld, and such, are currently looking for a new homeworld off of the Astral Plane(Although that two they seek to dominate).
3. Some of the Psiolons are so powerful that they could compete with the Sorcerior kings, and even run their own new city states like a Sorcerior King would. I could even imagine them mimicing the Sorcerior King's ability to impart Templar abilities on followers, only in their case, only Psionic abilities would be granted(A Psionic Templar?)
Interesting possibilties all..
Actually, the most important thing about them, I'd say, is that the Psurlons *come* from the 2nd Ed. Dark Sun campaign setting. They aren't from Athas, but that's the setting they were developed for.
The Psurlons were(To my knowledge) only given a full monster entry in the Planescape Monstrious Compendium 3. Maybe I shall go take a look at that book, and reprint the data on the monster here
They've been converted to 3e and are in Monster Manual 2
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
The Psurlons were(To my knowledge) only given a full monster entry in the Planescape Monstrious Compendium 3. Maybe I shall go take a look at that book, and reprint the data on the monster here
They're in the DS MCII too.
The first appearance of the Psurlons in 2e was Terrors of the Wastes, DS Monster COmpendium 2.
i'm going out on a limb here so be gentile...
are they the creatures that come from the crimson needle (the red pristine tower in the south?
i had an adventure where the needle was a beacon for them to find their way to athas
/comence flaming
There's never been any kind of official connection between the psurlons and the crimson monolith (I too turned it into another kind of pristine tower, great minds think alike so they say). In fact, the only other thing the psurlons ever appeared in besides the 2nd MC was the computer game Wake of the Ravager (I think it was that one). Its been far too long since I played either game so I'm certainly the last to ask for a rundown of its treatment of them, but they were the main adversary in it.