Demon Lords... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Demon Lords...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 26, 2004 2:30:49 If you jaunt over to the Forum for The Manuel of the Planes you might come across my request for research into the composition of the Abyss and its Abyssal Rulers, something which has always fascinated me about the Dungeons and Dragons world.

I was tickled pink to see old classics like Graz'zt, Orcus and Demogorgon trotted out for the Book of Vile Darkness... But it really got my mind going... I figured I would ask to see if there are any Demon Princes/Lords/Ladies/Etc. that are specific only to Greyhawk. I also am having a hard time sorting through all of the various editions...

A good example is Pazrael, a demon I've only found mention of in my copy of Iuz the Evil, at least so far... I also have questions about names being changed from Gygax's campaign to official D&D material. For instance, is Schubulox just another name for Jubilex?

Any help or thoughts would be, as always, greatly appreciated.
#2
faraer
Jan 28, 2004 11:51:20 The original AD&D planes and the World of Greyhawk go hand in hand. Post-EGG and until 3E, planar creatures described in non-Greyhawk materials unambiguously exist in the same cosmos as Greyhawk. Many entities are seen in Gary's novels but not in TSR works. Yes, Szhublox = Juiblex. Probably Pazrael = Pazuzu = Pazuzeus.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jan 28, 2004 15:01:07 It's been a nightmare trying to get all of the varied sources to agree with each other on certain points. It's obviously very plausable that Demons would have several names, but I want to know why there was a change at least... A good example: Vuron, Graz'zt's Albino Advisor, became Verin for some reason...
#4
grodog
Jan 29, 2004 10:56:52 It's entirely possible that Vuron and Verin are completely different creatures, as well.

http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_abyss_planes.html might be of general interest to abyssal scholars....
#5
extempus
Oct 26, 2006 4:11:57 I'm not certain that Pazrael and Pazuzu/Pazzuzeus are the same Abyssal lord. We're told that, "Pazrael appears as a huge vrock-like tanar'ri with gold and crimson feathered wings" (Iuz the Evil, p. 93), and he also has a +4 two-handed sword. Pazuzu, on the other hand, "will seldom employ a weapon" (1e Monster Manual II, p. 41), nor does he resemble a vrock (although "he can appear as nearly any creature"). He also has a breath weapon which Pazrael does not, and while they have similar spell-like abilities, they're not the same. They also appear to have completely different goals as well.

Looks like they're two separate beings with similar names.
#6
ripvanwormer
Oct 26, 2006 15:30:11
I'm not certain that Pazrael and Pazuzu/Pazzuzeus are the same Abyssal lord.

Officially, they are. Yes, they're described differently, but James Jacobs' article on Pazuzu in Dragon Magazine confirms that Pazrael is one of his names.

It's only that Carl Sargent's take on the demon was different from the 1e one. The 2e and 3e takes on Mephistopheles are different from the 1e ones too, so that's not definitive.

Pazrael was detailed in both Iuz the Evil and Planes of Chaos. The Planes of Chaos version was based on the earlier Iuz the Evil version, but also detailed his Abyssal layer, Torremor. Torremor was confirmed in the Fiendish Codex I and Dragon article as the name of a layer controlled by Pazuzu. The version of Pazuzu in the Book of Vile Darkness web enhancement, which was closely based on the 1e version, used the picture of Pazrael from Planes of Chaos to illustrate it.

Vuron and Verin are also the same - both are presented as albino seneschals of Graz'zt. It would be redundant for him to have two such chief advisors. Verin is his original name, from the MMII. Vuron was what Gygax called him in his novels. It wasn't initially clear that they were the same being, but it is now.
#7
extempus
Oct 27, 2006 2:15:37 Good to know, thanks! That'll make things interesting in my campaign, then... I'm obviously way behind on some things, lol...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 26, 2004 2:30:49	If you jaunt over to the Forum for The Manuel of the Planes you might come across my request for research into the composition of the Abyss and its Abyssal Rulers, something which has always fascinated me about the Dungeons and Dragons world. I was tickled pink to see old classics like Graz'zt, Orcus and Demogorgon trotted out for the Book of Vile Darkness... But it really got my mind going... I figured I would ask to see if there are any Demon Princes/Lords/Ladies/Etc. that are specific only to Greyhawk. I also am having a hard time sorting through all of the various editions... A good example is Pazrael, a demon I've only found mention of in my copy of Iuz the Evil, at least so far... I also have questions about names being changed from Gygax's campaign to official D&D material. For instance, is Schubulox just another name for Jubilex? Any help or thoughts would be, as always, greatly appreciated.
#2 faraer Jan 28, 2004 11:51:20	The original AD&D planes and the World of Greyhawk go hand in hand. Post-EGG and until 3E, planar creatures described in non-Greyhawk materials unambiguously exist in the same cosmos as Greyhawk. Many entities are seen in Gary's novels but not in TSR works. Yes, Szhublox = Juiblex. Probably Pazrael = Pazuzu = Pazuzeus.
#3 zombiegleemax Jan 28, 2004 15:01:07	It's been a nightmare trying to get all of the varied sources to agree with each other on certain points. It's obviously very plausable that Demons would have several names, but I want to know why there was a change at least... A good example: Vuron, Graz'zt's Albino Advisor, became Verin for some reason...
#4 grodog Jan 29, 2004 10:56:52	It's entirely possible that Vuron and Verin are completely different creatures, as well. http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_abyss_planes.html might be of general interest to abyssal scholars....
#5 extempus Oct 26, 2006 4:11:57	I'm not certain that Pazrael and Pazuzu/Pazzuzeus are the same Abyssal lord. We're told that, "Pazrael appears as a huge vrock-like tanar'ri with gold and crimson feathered wings" (Iuz the Evil, p. 93), and he also has a +4 two-handed sword. Pazuzu, on the other hand, "will seldom employ a weapon" (1e Monster Manual II, p. 41), nor does he resemble a vrock (although "he can appear as nearly any creature"). He also has a breath weapon which Pazrael does not, and while they have similar spell-like abilities, they're not the same. They also appear to have completely different goals as well. Looks like they're two separate beings with similar names.
#6 ripvanwormer Oct 26, 2006 15:30:11	I'm not certain that Pazrael and Pazuzu/Pazzuzeus are the same Abyssal lord. Officially, they are. Yes, they're described differently, but James Jacobs' article on Pazuzu in Dragon Magazine confirms that Pazrael is one of his names. It's only that Carl Sargent's take on the demon was different from the 1e one. The 2e and 3e takes on Mephistopheles are different from the 1e ones too, so that's not definitive. Pazrael was detailed in both Iuz the Evil and Planes of Chaos. The Planes of Chaos version was based on the earlier Iuz the Evil version, but also detailed his Abyssal layer, Torremor. Torremor was confirmed in the Fiendish Codex I and Dragon article as the name of a layer controlled by Pazuzu. The version of Pazuzu in the Book of Vile Darkness web enhancement, which was closely based on the 1e version, used the picture of Pazrael from Planes of Chaos to illustrate it. Vuron and Verin are also the same - both are presented as albino seneschals of Graz'zt. It would be redundant for him to have two such chief advisors. Verin is his original name, from the MMII. Vuron was what Gygax called him in his novels. It wasn't initially clear that they were the same being, but it is now.
#7 extempus Oct 27, 2006 2:15:37	Good to know, thanks! That'll make things interesting in my campaign, then... I'm obviously way behind on some things, lol...