The first boxed set, Dragon Kings, and the vast majority of Dark Sun products don't mention them at all. They aren't even necessary as background material.
In game, the vast majority of the population - everyone but the Sorcerer Kings and a few sages - doesn't even know they existed.
But seemingly every topic and thread eventually focuses on them. Yeah, they're interesting, but why not focus on Athas NOW?
I am working on a Cleansing Wars "mod" for Dark Sun, so my interest in Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars is obvious. Why is anyone else interested? Couldn't tell you for sure, but it's just an interesting topic: how the hell did someone like Rajaat rise to power, gather people to him, and forever screw the world up?
Those are the questions that have interested me since Rajaat was introduced. Besides, there's always the chance that Rajaat, or a follower, will come billowing out of the mists and throw a wrench in the whole system.
The final reason is that I felt Dark Sun was a bit more interesting with Borys running around; a sort of uberpower among superpowers.
Admit it Cessna.. The Champions are the ultimate villians, they are ruthless, cunning and extremely powerful. Not only did they master the defiling arcane magic Rajaat had taught them, but they helped him lay down the grammar for it, making it into what the spellcasters use today. They all had extremely high intelligence and were masters of the Way as well, as if this wasnt enough they were also The generals of evil in the darkest times of Athas, leading armies of destruction all over the tablelands.
The Champions, Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars are shrouded in mystery and little is known about this dark age, which for me personally adds to the curiousity and interest. I am currently reading Rise and Fall of a Dragon King and it is without a doubt the most interesting book I've ever read. I've played Dark Sun for almost 8 years now and have always tried to figure out what kind of personallity a Sorcererking would have.
(I just recieved my mint condition copy of RaFoaSK yesterday WOOT! ) :D :D :D
However, it is now part of the canon so I don't think we should overlook the Cleansing Wars. However, I think that Dark Sun really does need other conflicts and villains than the old Champions. To some extent the Kreen of G'lathuk fulfil this role.
The problem, to my mind, though is not just that 2nd edition Dark Sun was fixated on the Cleansing Wars but that it was fixated on monolithic enemies like Dregoth and G'lathuk. These are great for big sweeping, black-and-white campaigns but that's not really what I liked about Dark Sun. I liked the ambiguity and pettiness of the world.
The world was screwed up (if history is to be believed), by the Cleansing Wars, and then pushed over the brink when Borys became the Dragon. It has been kept there by the stupidity of magicians that continue to practice defiling magic, psuedo-elemental priests who tip the tedious balance of the world, and so on - the SKs cast few spells, when you think about it.
My interest in the Cleansing Wars is more about the politics. How did someone like Rajaat rise to power? How did he motivate all those people to follow him? Why did no one rise to stop him? Was he really all-powerful, or just really cunning? Did the rest of the world stand by while the champions annihilated the kobolds, orcs, and goblins, only to find out that they too were on the list? Interesting questions (to me, at least), and ones that I wanted to make a campaign for players to traipse around in.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
But in a sense, that's exactly what it is. If you're running your campaign right, the SKs should be well nigh untouchable. PCs should never rise to a point where they can challenge a being that's literally thousands of years old and had the world in a strangle hold during that entire time. They go well beyond Big Brother and likely there is little that is going on in their cities that they do not know about. They work slowly and catiously, always keeping an eye on what their enemies (the other SKs) are doing.
The Sorcerer-Kings are untouchable but I'm not sure that they go "well beyond Big Brother". Rajaat or no, I'm not sure they have ever been the wisest or canniest of rulers. They have always struck me as rather arrogant and almost foolish at times. Hamanu's extended title (in the Wanderer's Journal), Nibenay's cloistered existence and Lalali-Puy's pose of godhood all smack of ego rather than real intelligence. To some extent they are exactly the sort of cats-paw that Rajaat would use.
My interest in the Cleansing Wars is more about the politics. How did someone like Rajaat rise to power? How did he motivate all those people to follow him? Why did no one rise to stop him? Was he really all-powerful, or just really cunning? Did the rest of the world stand by while the champions annihilated the kobolds, orcs, and goblins, only to find out that they too were on the list? Interesting questions (to me, at least), and ones that I wanted to make a campaign for players to traipse around in.
Oh don't get me wrong. They are interesting questions. Certainly with my Silt Archipelago material I have tried to portray a fair more balanced impression of the Cleansing Wars rather than showing them as a one-way streak. Given the power of the psions that the Champions would have come against it really could have gone either way.
People certainly knew who the champions were, but they might not have realized, even in the end, that Rajaat was the one behind them, driving them on.
I also think the champions might have acted in a way that's similar to Hitler's march on Europe - by the time people figured out that his goal was THE WORLD and not just "Germany's historic lands," it was far too late. Thankfully, we stopped Hitler; Athas wasn't so lucky.
I agree that the SKs might have become complacent, but I don't think I would ever call them stupid. From Lynn Abbey's "Rise and Fall...," I see the SKs as bored; it's been so long since they have been challenged, that they challenge themselves, leaving (consciously or no) blindspots that can be taken advantage of. Kalak's disastrous plan shook things up and woke up those who survived.
He who does not know the past is doomed to repeat it...
Just kidding.
Apart from the possibility of running games set during the Cleansing War, I just think its interesting to know what's been going on.
Considering there are a few people still living from when the Cleansing Wars occured, and considering people tend to remember things a bit differently from each other, I think it would be fun to fill a PCs head with all of these conflicting stories about what happened back then. After they're significantly confused, I'd run them through a few games set in the time period and let them make up their own history (to a certain extent).
Here's an idea. Anyone ever think of running a few loosely connected high powered games where the players run the Champions? Gather a bunch of players who don't really know the past of Athas, give them a Champion to play and let them go at it. Then, have them role up characters normally and let them figure out that those uber characters they played are now uber uber uber characters who nearly destroyed the world...
Athas is an amazing world, with so much potential. But I've never seen a published street map of Urik, or a good detailed treatment of the halflings in the forest just above Tyr, or even a map of the fields and estates outside Tyr's walls. These are just examples, but it seems like there's a LOT of info missing from the world.
And no, I am NOT saying that a "Cleansing Wars" suppliment or expansion wouldn't be great - hell, I'd love to see it - but should that be the only direction we take Athas in...?
Take me for example, I will be working on some back burner projects for Athas.org (hopefully) as well as attacking my Villichi project head on once ToA is done.
Afghan is doing a Silt Archaepegio (I can't spell today) project.
I think Grummore is working on something.
The list goes on...
So we're not just dealing with the Cleansing Wars, though I will agree that it appears to be the most popular topic on the boards currently.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I don't think you realize the other projects that are being worked on out there to be honest.
So we're not just dealing with the Cleansing Wars, though I will agree that it appears to be the most popular topic on the boards currently.
Ah. Very well, then - that's good to hear...!
That completely changes when you're talking about campaigning in the past. A lot of the ideas I'm putting out now for the Green Age (and the Cleansing Wars) came from months of intense debate on these boards. For that reason, very little of what I have now resembles my original idea. Athas' past, thanks in large part to conflicting sourcebooks, is up in the air. Hell, we don't even know where Ebe is located. Everything about Athas' past is up for debate and conjecture. There's a huge, huge difference between drawing a map for a well-documented city and creating an entire past that's steeped in shadows.
Since you could make a map or supplement (like Afghan's brilliant depiction of the Archepelgo) and few would argue it if you stay close to true. With a Cleansing War supplement, it's from scratch, so more info and input is needed. I'm not Wizards of the Coast - I don't want to create something that people would discount and no one would use. I want people to check out the Cleansing Wars website (coming soon to a web near you) and say: "Damn! That looks like a lot of fun! And it fits with Dark Sun, too!" As opposed to: "This guy's cracked! Where the hell did he get THAT from? What a jerk."
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Since you could make a map or supplement (like Afghan's brilliant depiction of the Archepelgo) and few would argue it if you stay close to true. With a Cleansing War supplement, it's from scratch, so more info and input is needed. I'm not Wizards of the Coast - I don't want to create something that people would discount and no one would use. I want people to check out the Cleansing Wars website (coming soon to a web near you) and say: "Damn! That looks like a lot of fun! And it fits with Dark Sun, too!" As opposed to: "This guy's cracked! Where the hell did he get THAT from? What a jerk."
I dont know about you(all of you) but to me the team on Athas.org has done a great job to date in making Athas a world stille.... alive.
What I mean by this is in my opinion, the material on the web site of the same name is Official and I'll stick to that. Why?
Well because I know they are considering not only 2nd edition canon material, but also what we, as DS fans, would like to see or how we perceive the world base on what we know about the setting.... or not.
Although the Team are trying to respect what is considered canon, I'm sure they are sometimes bending the rules especially when the said rule/event/site/town/etc is evasive in desdription. This is where we come in.
Yes!! Those Forums have a purpose. And this is it: to give/comment/opinion/elaborate/etc on those evasive subject. Why? So we, as a majority, can provide what we, as DS players/DMs would like to *see* in future products.
Of course, bare with me here when I say that as Athas.org being all mighty as they are(no no dont thank me, it'll cost ya!! :D ) they cant honnestly satisfy 100% of the fans. (I have read enough posts to realise that you(and me I guess) can sometimes write severe criticism. Take for exemple the lost city of Ebe. I'm sure that the emplacement of where it should lay is creating quite a debate. And this is normal. We, as individual, are unique thus the different idea/reason to think this and that can sometimes(should say always) created differences in opinion.
What I'm realy trying to say here is we should continue what we are doing on this forums for it greatly help the team on Athas.org(and other project makers) It is 100% clear in my mind that they are considering all of what we post wich once the said products finished, should satisfy a great majority of us: Fans.
Once we have the finished product in hands(on screen) there is no stoping us in keeping what we like and bend the rules(or whatever we disagree on) for our own liking or because it fits better what we have started in our campaing.
Of course what ever end up in those pruduct. You'll have some "Damn! That looks like a lot of fun! And it fits with Dark Sun, too!" and some "This guy's cracked! Where the hell did he get THAT from? What a jerk."
The best exemple conserning the darksun setting accessories would be The Last Sea and Wind Riders o t Jagged Cliffs. You hate it or you love it.(or you keep what you like and change the rest in consideration of your own campaig.)
To all of you!! Keep up the posts and threads. We as a community nead it.
Seriously, if I didn't think Athas.org was doing a good job, I wouldn't be tossing art at them.
Originally posted by Zeitgeistgeist
"Why the preoccupation with Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars?"
He who does not know the past is doomed to repeat it...
Just kidding.
He who knows the past will repeat it anyway in an other way.
Not kidding.
Seriously though, I think the preoccupation is that many people have already played out what adventures they could with the Tablelands. While there's always more to see, discover, and do in a particular place, sometimes, you simply need a change of scenery. Also, some people simply want some background on the past in order to better flesh out the modern. Either way, its fun to brainstorm and kick around some ideas about what it was like, especially since almost anything about the Green Age is open to speculation. The only peeks we ever get come from the Last Sea book and Rise and Fall, neither of which seem to be widely accepted as canon. Hence, its a fairly clean slate to work on.
I would like to say that as a compulsively detailed DM (if only I treated things in my life with the same intensity as fantasy hehe) I really appreciate having the history of my gaming world fleshed out. The cleansing wars were a big part of how athas came to be as it and as such worth taking some time to describe in detail. I do however fully agree that there are many present day issues worth attention. Yet I see the whole Dark Sun experience as being initially based of pure survival but once those needs are met there are mysteries upon mysteries from the past to be uncovered in buried ruins across the desert. Without a cohesive history to bind this widespread destruction together you end up making up things as you go along which so easily falls apart as soon as you get a half bright player making some clever analysis of your shabby storyline :p
One thing I would like to see more of is even further back in history to the ancient halfling civilization. I always liked the idea of a utopian society that puts a foot wrong somehow and gimps the entire ecological balance. And I could use some input on a question that has been plaguing me....why did the halflings create weapons during the blue age? Who did they have to fight?
Anyways nothing to profound here I just wanted to toss a post up to continue a thread for the most part.
Keep up the good work
Originally posted by Darknell
One thing I would like to see more of is even further back in history to the ancient halfling civilization. I always liked the idea of a utopian society that puts a foot wrong somehow and gimps the entire ecological balance. And I could use some input on a question that has been plaguing me....why did the halflings create weapons during the blue age? Who did they have to fight?
They fought the kreen (At the time they had low-intelligence) and the Nature Benders(evil Rhulisti) and their creations. I also suspect monstrous aquatic creatures: naturally born and life-shaped horrors.(accidentally created)
Maybe an aquatic semi-intelligent race. Aquatic Yuan-ti anyone??
I can see a sort of metaphysical Greek City-States in the Tyr region prior to the cleansing wars or, as I have stated in another thread, running a city-state during the green age not with a SK, but rather, an EK (Element-King). The game would be just as brutal as a normal Dark Sun game for that is life on Athas.
A game in the green age should be an immortal game historical game. A game were the PCs play out Dark Sun like a history lesson. Sound boring, but if you are really into Dark Sun, than that might be fun.
I really liked Dark Sun before all the SKs started to die off like Star Trek extras.
Amen. There's a great setting, with SKs, The Dragon...wow!
Then, the author writes some books where just these cool things get whacked...
A DM is god, so none of this happened in my campaign.
With Dregoth, the kreen, the undead of the South, and the fact that, in my campaign, Albalach-Re, Tec, Sacha, Wyan, and Kalak are all slowly making comebacks (contingency spells that took place upon their deaths), have made for some very interesting storylines in the world as it currently is.