If not, then I'll ask this question:
Does anyone have or had Darkspace as part of his or her Campaign? And if so, how was it used in your campaign world?
1) Keep "overpowered" Darksun PCs out of other settings, such as FR or GH.
2) Preserve Darksun's themes; steel being rare becomes a bit of a problem when a whaleship shows up with a cargohold of 10,000 longswords fresh from Greyhawk.
A few weeks ago I did a bit of a survey on the Darksun board to see what people liked about mixing SJ & DS; it was partially a desire to have a means of "healing" athas ala Dune. I took some notes but that's about as far as I got with it.
Heres how I envision Athas and Darkspace fitting into Spelljammer.
Darkspace is FAR beyond the boundrys of normal Space(Where Birthspace,Greyspace,Krynnspace and Realmspace are located, as well as other lesser known Prime Worlds)
Its even further out than Inhuman Space, and the Illithid Remnant(The vast area of space still controled by the Illithids, see Unless Infinity, the Outer Plane's Spelljammer section for details on the most prominant sphere in Illithid Space).
Darkspace consists of a Red-Giant star, Athas and its moons, and a black hole. All other planets ether never existed, or were consumed by Athas' sun when it became a giant.
Originally, only Thri-Kreen and Humans lived on this harsh, but green world, until wandering Spelljamming explorers of the Elven, Dwarven, Orcish and Halfling races landed on the world and colonized it, eventually changing to match the enviriment(Elves became tall, chaotic, and short-lived, Halflings became savage and cannibalistic etc).
The influce of gravitational energies from the Red Giant and Black Hole mutated all natives of the world, causing them to change physical and mentally, and causing all natives to develop Psionic Talent.
The reason there are no Gods on Athas(Besides isolated pockets of Elemental God cults), is because no Gods know of Athas' existence(Or care), and even ones that would like to have a foothold on the Planet are prevented from doing so by some unknown force.
This unknown force is really an influx of energy from a scientific, rather than Magical universe(Or perhaps Multiverse)(Alternity or some other Sci-Fi game Crossover perhaps?). This other universe is linked to this one threw the Black Hole, although nothing from the other side has entered Darkspace.....Yet.
As a matter of fact, the Black Hole was the very tool I used in my Spelljammer campaign to interduce both the Fraal(Orginally from Alternity, but also featured in AD&D Monstrious Compendium Annual #4) as well as other aliens from Alternity(Owning the first Alien Compendium, I decided to import some of the critters into Spelljammer).
Eventually not-so-friendly aliens arrived threw the Black Hole, and decided this strange new universe they had found themselves in would be the perfect conquest, and a short war pitting Alternity Starships against Spelljamming fleets occured threwout Darkspace. Eventually, an incredibly powerful Sorcerior-King from a region of Athas far removed from the Tyr region used his powers to destroy most of combatants, except for the PCs and their Spelljamming ship, which crashed on Athas(The PCs survived, but after a couple of weeks stranded on Athas, they'd probably wish they had not).
So Nightdruid, thats my take on a encorperate Darkspace into Spelljammer, whats yours?
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
So Nightdruid, thats my take on a encorperate Darkspace into Spelljammer, whats yours?
Interesting ideas, although it conflicts somewhat with canon Darksun
I have two takes on it, my original idea & my newer ideas.
Original Idea: Athas is surrounded by a shell of dead magic, so that any attempt to escape pretty much fails. Thusly, people use it as a penal colony, dumping off prisoners they don't want to ever escape.
Newer Idea: Building on information I've gleaned from the DS board, here's a brief rundown:
Athas is the major planet; all other planets are small &/or dark. At least 1 asteroid belt or cluster.
At least 1 sorcerer-king city-state.
Illithids are a major threat; potentially own a big empire.
Distances are huge; maybe 50-60 days to the spherewall from last planet, making trips difficult to impossible. This "Black Gulf" is haunted by creatues from the Black, making it especially dangerous.
Resources are scarce everywhere; instead of ships we reconnize, most are made from insect caracasses. Most ships are pretty small (scorpionship would be a big ship).
No arcane, helms rare, most use some sort of psi helm or lifejammers.
That's my ideas in a nutshell.
Where would you locate Darkspace?
Would it be "Off the charts"(As in, a rediculiously vast distance from Darkspace to Known Space) like my idea was?
Come to think of it, would Spelljammers really stand a chance against High-Tech, Sci-Fi starships? I had pretty much a stalemate going on in my campaign(The Spelljamming ship's magic evened out the High-Technology of the Alternity Ships)
Perhaps the wizard feared the power of Athas' native spellcasters, and desired to eliminate them before they became a threat be sealing the world off?
All I know is that the only portals that exist to and from Athas exist on the Astral Plane(The Githyanki once tried to invade Athas, and failed, the result being the degenerate Gith living on the world), and Sigil(Of the Planescape setting).
Doesn't mean a Spelljammer couldn't go there, does it?
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Really, it was mentioned that 11th level magic(Since 10th level is powerful enough, a 11th level spell must be amazingly powerful) was in fact, to blame for Athas' relative isolation? I wonder if thats why no gods exist there?
Perhaps the wizard feared the power of Athas' native spellcasters, and desired to eliminate them before they became a threat be sealing the world off?
All I know is that the only portals that exist to and from Athas exist on the Astral Plane(The Githyanki once tried to invade Athas, and failed, the result being the degenerate Gith living on the world), and Sigil(Of the Planescape setting).
Doesn't mean a Spelljammer couldn't go there, does it?
Note that 12th level magic is, apparently, the highest level there is (Karsus Avatar, that allows you to steal the power of a god, is a 12th level spell) the Seal Crystal Sphere (and it's reverse, Breach Crystal Sphere ) are very, very powerful spells, (the only way to remove a Seal Crystal Sphere is via a Breach Crystal Sphere, and since 11th level spells are unavailible that sort of sucks...) the Seal Crystal Sphere spell does indeed stop spelljamming, planar travel, and in general all sorts of transportation.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Where would you locate Darkspace?
I'd locate it someplace remote, but not impossible to get to. It'd the be "black gulf" between planets & the spherewall that'd be the real cutoff point (afterall, that's 2 months just to cover that distance, nevermind the distance to a real planet or time in the flow; a trip from Oerth to Athas would take almost a year. Most ships just aren't designed for trips that long (nevermind random encounters taking out most of the crew before you landed).
Come to think of it, would Spelljammers really stand a chance against High-Tech, Sci-Fi starships? I had pretty much a stalemate going on in my campaign(The Spelljamming ship's magic evened out the High-Technology of the Alternity Ships)
Honestly? Tech ship would tear SJ ship apart; the SJ ship would never even get in sight of a tech ship before being blown to smitherines (those 100k ranges can be a killer...;) ) But that's IMO; it certainly possible to set it up where the two would be stalemated, depending on the tech given.
Originally posted by Arilou_skiff
If I remember correctly (Might be wrong about this) Athasspace was sealed by the use of an 11th level spell by a wizard from the FR during the time of Netheril (see the Netheril: Empire of Magic set) This means that it's impossible to enter or exit Athasspace without the use of incredibly powerful magic.
IIRC, Seal Sphere was never used on any named sphere; it was a fan-created FR timeline that notes it was used to seal Athas. As far as I know, Netheril makes no mention to the sphere of the Dark Sun.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
IIRC, Seal Sphere was never used on any named sphere; it was a fan-created FR timeline that notes it was used to seal Athas. As far as I know, Netheril makes no mention to the sphere of the Dark Sun.
Really? I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in the Seal Sphere entry... Well, I'm not really an expert on either FR or Dark Sun, so I'll take your word for it.
Deities generally no longer take kindly on mortals using magic above 10th level(With good reason)
Originally posted by Arilou_skiff
Really? I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in the Seal Sphere entry... Well, I'm not really an expert on either FR or Dark Sun, so I'll take your word for it.
Just checked the entry; Seal Sphere makes no mention of Darksun.
I believe it came about in a fan-created timeline (which largely are canon dates, but include some non-canon entries).Originally posted by Nightdruid
Just checked the entry; Seal Sphere makes no mention of Darksun.
Guess I was wrong then, my apologies.
Originally posted by Arilou_skiff
Guess I was wrong then, my apologies.
Not a big deal; I know I've seen that reference before on one (or more) of those so-called "Unified Timelines" on the net; they tend to extraoplate some things (and thus can be confusing ).It makes for all sorts of interesting ideas.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Isn't it fun having all the Campaign settings in the same universe?
It makes for all sorts of interesting ideas.
Yes, IMHO that was the WORST thing they did in 3rd. ed.: Split the cosmologies...
For instance, a book that says things like Krynn has only two afterlife planes, the Abyss and the Heavenly Paradise, is written by a Krynnish native who doesn't know about any other planes that may exist.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Originally, only Thri-Kreen and Humans lived on this harsh, but green world, until wandering Spelljamming explorers of the Elven, Dwarven, Orcish and Halfling races landed on the world and colonized it, eventually changing to match the enviriment(Elves became tall, chaotic, and short-lived, Halflings became savage and cannibalistic etc).
The influce of gravitational energies from the Red Giant and Black Hole mutated all natives of the world, causing them to change physical and mentally, and causing all natives to develop Psionic Talent.
The reason there are no Gods on Athas(Besides isolated pockets of Elemental God cults), is because no Gods know of Athas' existence(Or care), and even ones that would like to have a foothold on the Planet are prevented from doing so by some unknown force.
This unknown force is really an influx of energy from a scientific, rather than Magical universe(Or perhaps Multiverse)(Alternity or some other Sci-Fi game Crossover perhaps?). This other universe is linked to this one threw the Black Hole, although nothing from the other side has entered Darkspace.....Yet.
You are ver very very wrong....
Let me break down the Athasian history for you real quick
Blue Age: only halfling Nature Masters inhabit Athas using neither magic nor Psionics
Green Age: Age of Psionics, Nature Benders mess things up.
The Rebirth: Halflings are mutated at the pristine tower giving birth to all the Demi-human races.
The Time of Magic: Rajaat discovers Magic on Athas and teaches it to all that will learn from him. he secretly teaches Defiling magic to his most trusted and talented student.
The Cleansing wars: Rajaat imbues his Defilers with awesome power, making them his champions. he then orders them to annihilate all the demihuman races. After many races perish the Champions discover Rajaats true plan to give Athas back to the halflings. They rebel against Rajaat and imprison him in a dimension known as the Hollow. They then use the power at the Pristing tower to transform themselves into the Sorcererkings they are today and to create the Dragon of Tyr
As far as the lack of gods goes.. well, thats pretty easy to explain..
Athas is surrounded by a plane known as the Gray, this plane is extremely difficult to pierce and traval to and from the outerplanes is near impossible. Since all Divine power comes from the outer planes and all the Gods have their homeplanes there they cannot grant power to Athasians, nor does the Athasian prayers reach the ears of the Gods.
Yes, I know its wrong(in Darksun canon that is) but thats my explaination for Elves, Dwarfs, and pretty much every race that lives on multiple Prime worlds. It was made with the assumption that all world-specific history is made by historians living on those worlds(hense Krynn's explanation for the origins of Dwarfs and Gnomes, as well as Elves, for example)
The only races, to me, that actually orginated on their homeworlds, are races not found on other worlds(Thri-Kreen for Athas, Kender for Krynn, Rakasta and Lupins for Mystaria etc.)
Face it, Spelljammer is not meant to touch Athas and with good reason.
that said, I never really understood why TSR decided to make Spelljammer... i mean.. who needs to use a spaceship when you have Sigil and it's portals... you have spells like planeshift, teleport and so on.. Spelljammer is just a poor attempt to bring Sci-Fi into AD&D. if you wanna play Sci-Fi, then buy Starwars, warhammer 40k, star trek, aliens or mechwarrior.
sorry about the ranting Sword_of_Geddon, but I just dont see how you can apply spelljammer to Athas without ruining the Darksun spirit =/
Where to begin? Guess I'll start with Athas. There's no reason that a DM couldn't link SJ & DS if such a DM wanted to; it's his/her game. I'd give the advice (which I have) that the journey is very long and very dangerous, thus meaning only the toughest would survive; thus cut off the "hordes of ships" showing up with that dratted steel and thus preserve DS's flavor. I noted this in my first and second replies. Afterall, it is generally accepted that you can reach the planes via the Black; if you make a trip through wildspace equally difficult (but not impossible), you get the same effect, just different means of getting there.
Secondly, why SJ to begin with. Well, for starters, SJ predates Sigil and Planescape by many years; SJ was either already cancelled or was on its last products when PS hit the shelves. The line has much more in common with Space: 1889 rather than any of the sci fi you mentioned (except maybe through the SJ MCs, which had tons of critters drawn from Sci fi). Secondly, SJ offers a unique environment to explore, and is quite creative in its own way. Besides, planeshift and like spells are not usually readily available, while spelljammers are more available to low-level adventurers.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Originally, only Thri-Kreen and Humans lived on this harsh, but green world, until wandering Spelljamming explorers of the Elven, Dwarven, Orcish and Halfling races landed on the world and colonized it, eventually changing to match the enviriment(Elves became tall, chaotic, and short-lived, Halflings became savage and cannibalistic etc).
Actually, the Dark Sun storyline has Halflings (Rhulisti) being the first race, during the Blue Age. They could have been a spelljamming race. The Thri-Kreen existed at that time, but weren't sentient, being much more anamalistic. When the Green Age came upon Athas, the Pristine Tower changed the Halflings into all the other races (Elves, Dwarves, Humans, etc.) Plus, during the Blue Age, Athas' sun was (IIRC) a Blue Star. The Green Age made it shift to yellow and later to red, due to use of the Pristine Tower.
Other than that, it's an interesting idea.
Edit: I see someone else had already covered this.
Originally posted by zerpentor
Face it, Spelljammer is not meant to touch Athas and with good reason.
that said, I never really understood why TSR decided to make Spelljammer... i mean.. who needs to use a spaceship when you have Sigil and it's portals... you have spells like planeshift, teleport and so on.. Spelljammer is just a poor attempt to bring Sci-Fi into AD&D. if you wanna play Sci-Fi, then buy Starwars, warhammer 40k, star trek, aliens or mechwarrior.
sorry about the ranting Sword_of_Geddon, but I just dont see how you can apply spelljammer to Athas without ruining the Darksun spirit =/
Basically you can't...lol. But that's not the point, running a DS campaign where you introduce 'jammer would, as you said, ruin the whole flavour of the campaign. However, this is the 'jammer board so what is actually happening is you are introducing DS to SJ, a very different concept. See, in a SJ campaign, you are perfectly at liberty to muck up Athas as much as you want, without worrying about destroying the tone of DS, as you (should) be using the tone/style/whatever of Spelljammer. Likewise it can be fun, if your players like that sort of thing, to be a huge impact on a world; introducing worlds like Athas is also very fun if you are running a trading game: pick up iron cheap on Oerth, then trade for slaves, new magic, psionic teaching and life-shaped items (if you can get those genocidal halflings to teach you). What would be intensely wrong in a DS campaign makes for a very fun 'jammer campaign.
More importantly, if you don't like Spelljammer, then why are you here; if we decide to turn Athas into a giant pink donut covered in psionic space hamsters, well we'll hardly force YOU to play it, so I don't see your problem. As to Spelljammer being s.f. derivative- I think you need to read around a little. The influences on spelljammer are CLEARLY the various myth's and legends as well as more contempory fantasy (e.g.: Lovecraft) that involve ships flying off into space, the belief it was possible to fly to other planets, etc. Now I'm not much learned in myths and legends, so you'll have to ask someone else about that, in fact I'm afraid I don't know half as much as I should; but I do, or so it seems, now a damn sight more on this topic than you- who come in here and complaign about s.f. derivative. Just looking at Lovecraft and reading the stories of the dreamlands, with great galley's sailing out to the dark side of the moon, and it's clear as day that that's you're influence for Spelljammer, not science fiction. Especially, 40k - much as I love it, probably my favourite settig in fact- is much more worthy of the claim to be trying to make fantasy into science fiction, with it's Tolkien races and Morecock-style chaos gods, magic masquerading as psychic powers, and good v. evil biblical-themed background.
I apologise for the above rant, I sometimes get carried away but I felt it needed to be said, in terms of the other side though all I can say is: humans as the first race on Athas makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, please do not try to change what is an interesting and different history so as to deny the entire point of Athas.
Originally posted by zerpentor
that said, I never really understood why TSR decided to make Spelljammer... i mean.. who needs to use a spaceship when you have Sigil and it's portals... you have spells like planeshift, teleport and so on..
Neither of those spells allows you to transport more than you and a few friends can personally carry... and I suspect much the same is true of the portals in Sigil. For bulk cargo transport, spelljamming is the only feasible option.
Wyvern
As for steel and water being transported in mass to Athas via Spelljammer from other worlds, that happened to a limited degree(I had the Spelljammers aiding the rebels fighting against the Sorcerior Kings). But the trading route was sabataged when a Defiler(who had just recently begun a transformation into a Dragon), stole one of the Spelljammers, and pretty much decided to conquer all of Wildspace. He was one of my more memorable villains.