From Brimstone…
Well...we'll have to wait and see how much of an option they really are for a book about the knighthoods or something similar.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
That’s the thing – The Legion of Steel is often “billed” as a knighthood, yet I don’t see how they are one. They aren’t chivalrous, they often act covertly…
I disagree with that statment. They are definately chivalrous....however they do act covertly (occasionally...but not always), but so does the Knights of Solamnia, now. I don't know...they follow a code just like the other knighthoods. They hold themselves to as strict, if not stricter ideals.
I don't know...perhaps the better question is...what makes a group like-minded, chivalrous people who follow a set of rules and there are strict penalties for breaking those rules and actual "knighthood."
I don't know...for me, what makes a knight (in fantasy) is his beliefs, the willingness to fight for those beliefs, following a code of honor (either for good or for ill), pledging thier service on pain of death for "disobeying" to a brotherhood, chivalry, and of course partaking in a ceremony in which someone "dubs thee Knight."
For me...the Legion of Steel has all of this.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The Legion of Steel is more like the Harpers than they are the Knights of Solamnia or Knights of Neraka.
Perhaps in purpose...but not necessarily in form or function, I think.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
On the one hand, a good portion of their purpose was to fight the dragon overlords. With the death of three of them, they don’t have as much to do.
That's what they did, yes...but that wasn't their reason for being. That's not why Sara founded the order. They were created to protect Ansalon and it's people, because the other two knighthoods were not doing a very good job of it. They were more concerned with defeating each other than protecting the land and people.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Remember that mystics will still be at the Citadel of Light, so they aren’t exactly the way of the dodo.
Yeah, but their one place of sanctity has been taken over by the Mishakites (or whatever they're called) and the Mystics are more being "allowed" to stay, than anything else, I think. The peace between them can't last forever.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
We no longer have the Dragonarmies, for example.
True enough...but I'm not quite sure that's a fair comparison...
Great topic, Trampas!
Originally posted by Brimstone
I disagree with that statment. They are definately chivalrous....however they do act covertly (occasionally...but not always), but so does the Knights of Solamnia, now. I don't know...they follow a code just like the other knighthoods. They hold themselves to as strict, if not stricter ideals.
I’m not sure that I would equate following a code to chivalry. There are all sorts of groups in Krynn that hold themselves to strict codes and ideals.
I looked up chivalry at Dictionary.com, and here’s what it said.
1. The medieval system, principles, and customs of knighthood.
2.
a. The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women.
b. A manifestation of any of these qualities.
3. A group of knights or gallant gentlemen.
I think that’s where my problem lies with this. I can see a lot of what Brim is saying, but at the same time, I don’t see things like courtesy, gallantry, and just being a gentleman.
Honor is a tricky one. A Legionnaire can be honorable, but I don’t think they have to be. The Knights of Solamnia are the epitome of honor. The Knights of Neraka were honorable when they began, but later weren’t. The DLCS doesn’t list honor-bound as a prerequisite for them. I’d require it, personally, at least for the Chaos War.
Great topic, Trampas!
Thanks!
And please don’t take my disagreement on whether or not the Legion of Steel should be classified as a knighthood as me criticizing the Legion. Quite the contrary, I think they add a lot of flavor to the setting.
My problem is that I keep comparing them with the Harpers. Eep!
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
And please don’t take my disagreement on whether or not the Legion of Steel should be classified as a knighthood as me criticizing the Legion. Quite the contrary, I think they add a lot of flavor to the setting.
Not at all, dude! We've talked enough times on this for me to know your feelings and such on it. It almost seems to be a difference of semantics...but perhaps not.
One of the major problems is that the Legion has rarely been depicted in novels...and the two major ones we have (Clandestine Circle and Dhamon Saga) really don't agree with each other. Which makes me feel that the LoS really have two sides to them...the open knighthood, and the clandestine group.
As for your definition of a knighthood...I'll have to get back to you on that. I want to read up in Heroes of Steel and the DLCS to refresh my memory on what exactly the Legacy says...but there's an awfull lot in there (from what I remember) about things that I would classify as honorable, chivalrous, gallant, etc. But I maybe confusing them with the Measure (which is outlined somewhat in Heroes of Steel). But like I said...I'll get back to ya on that one.
Cheers,
Cam
I see the Legion of Steel as similar role as current day UN Pecekeepers. They are there to maintain the peace without showing a distinct side of favourtism to anyone.
As Brimstone says "They were created to protect Ansalon and it's people, because the other two knighthoods were not doing a very good job of it. "
If you start to play them as a distinctly order of Knights than I feel that they would need to really have a more defined code/measure. By thinking of them as Neutral peacekeepers I feel that you have the ability to stay with the original concept that Sara was trying to idealise.
Then again, this just what I think.
Legion Scout Rogue 6/Steel Legionnaire 1/Legion Scout 1
Legion Mystic Mystic 6/Steel Legionnaire 1/Legion Mystic 1
Legion Sorcerer Bard 6/Steel Legionnaire 1/Legion Sorcerer 1
The last one's probably a shocker, but it's the most direct route, and you pick up a lot of useful Legion-friendly skills along the way. If you don't want to go the bard route, replace the bard levels with Sorcerer 4/Fighter 2 or Sorcerer 4/Ranger 2.
Cheers,
Cam
Legion Mystic Mystic 6/Steel Legionnaire 1/Legion Mystic 1
Of course... you can't qualify for Legion Mystic like that unless you are a human with an 18 Int perhaps. You'd still probably have to do without skills like... oh... Concentration. I could be wrong, but I spent a few days trying to figure out how to qualify for Legion Mystic without having to take a bunch of Rogue or Bard levels. I could come close but there are too many cross class skills and not enough skill points for this ussualy. I'd love to see how you're doing it, to see if I'm missing somthing.
Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel
Of course... you can't qualify for Legion Mystic like that unless you are a human with an 18 Int perhaps. You'd still probably have to do without skills like... oh... Concentration. I could be wrong, but I spent a few days trying to figure out how to qualify for Legion Mystic without having to take a bunch of Rogue or Bard levels. I could come close but there are too many cross class skills and not enough skill points for this ussualy. I'd love to see how you're doing it, to see if I'm missing somthing.
You can do it with an Int 12 human mystic, or an Int 14 non-human mystic. Dump skill points into Bluff (6 skill points -> 3 ranks), Heal (9 ranks), Knowledge (religion) (9 ranks), and Gather Information (8 skill points ->4 ranks). This should get you to Steel Legionnaire, and leaves you with 4 ranks in Concentration if you wanted it. Steel Legionnaire has Sense Motive as a class skill and 4 skill points/level, which lets you get into Legion Mystic.
Cheers,
Cam
As far as I see them with what I know, they seem more like a semi-organised adventurer's organisation that seeks out the problems of Ansalon and tries to learn of them and ultimately destroy them to protect the common man.
I don't see them as a knighthood at all.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The Knights of Neraka were honorable when they began, but later weren’t. The DLCS doesn’t list honor-bound as a prerequisite for them. I’d require it, personally, at least for the Chaos War.
A little off-topic, but ...
Honor-bound is a prerequisite for Knights of the Lily, but not Skull or Thorn Knights. DLCS p. 64
So you're Ok with that build? It just seems very... metagamey and a bit extreme that it requires twice the skill points of the class to qualify. Maybe it's just me then, the requirments just seem too harsh and "inorganic". Come to think of it, there are quite a few prestige classes in Dragonlance that seem too harsh in my opinion, like they force a specific "prefix" in order to qualify, so that almost everyone with just 1 or 2 levels in the prestige class looks near identical. Guess it's a matter of design taste or somthing.
Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel
So you're Ok with that build? It just seems very... metagamey and a bit extreme that it requires twice the skill points of the class to qualify. Maybe it's just me then, the requirments just seem too harsh and "inorganic". Come to think of it, there are quite a few prestige classes in Dragonlance that seem too harsh in my opinion, like they force a specific "prefix" in order to qualify, so that almost everyone with just 1 or 2 levels in the prestige class looks near identical. Guess it's a matter of design taste or somthing.
Sure. There's a certain amount of metagame thinking going on here - I have a few players in my group who enjoy that and like to plot their characters out in advance. I also have some who just decide what to do each time they level up, and don't think in these kinds of terms. The Dragonlance prestige classes support both styles of play. Remember, that build I suggested is the most direct route, but it doesn't have to be the only way you end up playing a legion mystic. In fact, I would say about 90% of legion mystics don't have the PrC, and are just mystics with some ranks in Gather Information. If you want to pick the class up as soon as possible, though, you'll risk looking like all the other early-qualifying legionnaires, but I'm sure most people can work around that if they so desire.
Cheers,
Cam
As to the Legion of Steel, well I get the impression that now at least they are becoming more and more of a strict military organisation than the covert resistance they were before.
The blatantly differ from the previous two legions in their style, being more guerrilla type freedom fighters rather than traditional "knights in shining/dark armour", although the Knights of Takhisis broke from that tradition with their Magi style Order of Thorn, and also used undercover agents (although the Solammics are starting to get the hint with that now as well). However their goal seems to be just as noble as the Solammics, and seem less confined by tradition and codes (although the measure has by now be substantially revised and many of the more impractical restrictions removed).
Now to the Legion of Steel. I must admit that my knowledge of them is rather limited, being confined to the DLCS and what others have posted on the boards. So let me see if I have this knowledge correct then, please tell me if I am wrong: Chaos is killed, the Knights of Solamnia and the Knights of Neraka are battling each other for dominance, essentially. In doing so they forget to protect the people when the Dragon Overlords come, and so the Legion of Steel is founded by Sara Dunstan to protect the people regardless of whether they support the KoS or the KoN. They use covert, or what I would dub, dishonorable tactics (this being up for debate based on how you define honor), to achieve the greater good. So far however, they have pretty much stayed out of the major conflicts gripping Ansalon currently, as witnessed in the War of Souls.
From a DM's perspective, it would seem to me that the Legion was formed from this idea... Balance. Dragonlance had one group of warriors dedicated to good and one group dedicated to evil. But there were three major ideologies on Krynn: good, NEUTRALITY, evil. There was no group of warriors dedicated to neutrality. So for the sake of ideological balance, a third group was added. This is just theorhetical, however, and probably wrong.
Personally, I've always felt that the Legion was a bit redundant. I admit to being a bit biased, but I have always felt that the KoS were still trying to do good, but had their hands a tad full trying to keep the KoN from conquering and oppressing the people. Hence, having two orders dedicated to exactly the same thing just seemed a bit unnecessary to me. Also I feel need to point out that the KoN joined forces with the Dragon Overlords, so technically, the KoS were still fighting the Dragon Overlords.
Does this mean that I feel that the LoS should "go the way of the dodo"? Absolutely not. Just because I don't agree with their origins doesn't mean that I wouldn't still be intrigued. In fact, when I get a group together, I plan to use the minotaur invasion to force them to take a stance in a major conflict.
I've rambled a bit. Would I classify the LoS as a knighthood? No, because I do not feel that their actions (or much of the actions taken by certain KoS during the WoS trilogy, a fact which has angered me greatly) are truly honorable. However, I feel I must state that a legion and a knighthood are quite similar in structure. Both have a heirarchial system, a code of ethics, and punishment for breaking said code. Both also have a ritual of admittance, and are essentially groups of like-minded warriors.
While I have admitted that I have a limited knowledge of the LoS, I feel this makes me qualified to give my opinion as an observer.
Originally posted by Illithidbix
As to the Legion of Steel, well I get the impression that now at least they are becoming more and more of a strict military organisation than the covert resistance they were before.
Actually, this reminds me of my campaign idea for the Legion of Steel. I call it "The Last Stand of the Legion of Steel".
In the aftermath of the War of Souls, three of the dragon overlords, including the mighty Malystryx, have met their demise. This have given new hope to the masses, and the Legion of Steel feels strengthened.
It is with this newfound fervor that they gather their forces to face Sable, the great black.
The campaign would then revolve around a series of adventures that would involve gathering forces, forging alliances, the search for ancient artifacts - including the mighty dragonlances.
The end game would, of course, revolve around the battle against Sable. It would be epic, involving the entire Legion, assembled to destroy the black. Sable would die, and the Legion would sacrifice themselves in the process. There wouldn't be many survivors. If you wanted to add some flair to it, have Gilthanas and Silvara show up to help take on Sable, sacrificing themselves in the process.
I know, this one really messes with continuity, and could possibly signal the end of the Legion (although you wouldn't have to). It would be a great way for them to go out in a blaze of glory, fighting for what they believe in.
That's why I say we should define the military groups differently. As Cam says, have the Legion of Steel as a military fraternity, operating across Ansalon for the good of all. The few, the unlikely, heroes doing great things either openly or behind the scenes. Since they are few, the behind the scenes is more common, but if you like to do things more overtly, just take more levels in Fighter. The fighter base class is the perfect knight, since he can take umpteen feats in mounted combat. Frankly, I think Dragonlance has a glut of prestige classes already. What do we need more for? You'll never play them all anyway.
For the Knighthood, let's take them back to what made them so cool in Chronicles and Legend of Huma. We have the Legion of Steel for covert missions. We have the legion of Steel as the defender of all humanity in a vague liberal kind of way. Give the Solamnics rituals, traditions, training from birth, impeccable manners, and fierce pride. Have them be the defenders of Solamnia, just as the Knights of Nereka are the vanguard of that expansionistic Nerekan Empire.
Then you don't have to worry about either being "phased out" because they will both have a separate and important role to play in the setting. If you make both military orders the same, people are going to ignore the Legion of Steel for the Solamnic Knighthood, simply because the Solamnic Knighthood is more famous.
I think that the Legion is still relevant. The return of the gods hasn't changed their mission, except to add new allies and new enemies. And there are still Onysablet and Gellidus, not to mention Cryonisis and Frisinidia, Mohrlex, Pyrothraxus (and maybe even Lorrinar depending on how he responds to events). Just as mystics and sorcerers aren't going away, neither is the Legion. If only because roleplaying just how they deal with the aftermath of the WoS has great promise.
I do not feel that their actions (or much of the actions taken by certain KoS during the WoS trilogy, a fact which has angered me greatly) are truly honorable.
I'm unsure about this.
It may be true that the Legion itself has done questionable things in its time, and through these and the whole covert action thing, can appear not-honourable, but does this really make them so? Individually, all the Legionnaires are very honourable people - a part of joining the Legion is because of a desire to protect, but due to not having a long-established history and loads of resources, has had to make do with mostly guerilla tactics against the near unstoppable foe of the Knights of Neraka in alliance with the Dragon Overlords. Anything they can do has to be a good thing, and since they are plain about their motives and methods, it has to be honourable.
Using my own dictionary here - Honour 1. personal integrity; allegiance to moral principles. Honourable 1. possessing or characterized by high principles. I think the question must be 'is using the practices of the Legion of Steel dishonourable'? I don't think so - they retain their moral code, and if attacking key people or whatever when they are not aware of it is dishonourable, then the armies of the real world have not been honourable since the British army gave up the red coats (depending on whether they were massacring various tribes before or after they doffed the red coats, but you probably get my point). Because everyone does this now, no one thinks so much of it being dishonourable, but having snipers is basically stabbing someone unexpectedly in the back of the head, only with a very tiny knife but at incredible speeds.
Sable would die, and the Legion would sacrifice themselves in the process. There wouldn't be many survivors.
This is a fairly cool idea, but I'm not sure about it as really viable. Pulling the Legion out of everywhere on Ansalon would probably violate some of the things it stands for. It's there to protect the common man, which is probably why the number of recruits is so great. Many people will have a desire to help protect their neighbours and friends and families, and join the Legion to occasionally drop a bit of information their way or do what they can in their positions. Since it seems there is such a variable amount of how much you've joined, it would be difficult to pull people from one side of the continent, leaving those people undefended or unprotected, to kill the one dragon overlord who is the least threatening. Sable, other than occasionally nab a passing stranger to turn into an abomination, does nothing, and the region she's claimed for herself is sparesly populated at best. One of the realms she is causing problems for is the ogre one, and I'm not sure how many people would want to 'save' them.
If they did want to fight a dragon overlord, it would probably have to be Gellidus. Of all the common people on Krynn, the elves are needing the most protection, and giving them that realm might be a step in the right direction. As soon as the elves get back on their feet, they can start to do good again, and Gellidus is certainly not helping the Knights of Solamnia in the region. Although the KoS are not always the Legion's best friends, the less things they have to fight for, the more they can do for the common people. But I don't think they'd want to fight Gellidus either.
Finally, I want to ask - is the Legion really a Lawful Neutral soceity? If Lawful is sticking to laws, then it has to be asked whose? They aren't sticking to the rules of conventional warfare by using guerilla tactics, they spy, but they have their own code of honour, and they stick to this. But while I say this, it still says in the DLCS that there are chaotic people within the system, because too much law stifles the cause of good - what? The hierarchy must have some sort of significance, even to these chaotic people, else what use are they in a pressure situation, where orders need to be obeyed? If it were only this reason, to prevent stagnation, I would have to ask why they had to be chaotic, people who are defined by not taking orders from superiors. Aren't neutral (on the law scale) people just as likely to prevent this stagnation, by pointing out the law flaws?
Are they Neutral? I don't see how. They are there to protect the common man, and people say this is why they are neutral, but that doesn't make sense to me. Looking out for anyone other than yourself is more good than neutral. People say that it is because the KoS and the KoN are good and evil, a neutral knighthood was needed. But that means that the LoS is only neutral because it's placed between these two orders, not because of any ideals on the part of the Legion.
This is vastly different from the Knights of Solamnia, because the Knights of Solamnia have laws, codes, protocols, and traditions which they follow to administer justice, rather than just dispense it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for the Knighthood goodness is a matter of tradition, piety and duty, while for the Legion of Steel goodness is a matter of idealism and raw passion.
Neither the Legion of Steel nor the Knights of Solamnia will be redundant long as we look at their differences and assign them different roles in the campaign setting. DLCS and AoM went a long way to establishing their different personalities and approaches through their prestige classes. Now all we need is the storylines through novels and adventures to back it up.
To draw a superhero analogy, a Solamnic Knight is Superman... while a Legionnaire of Steel is Batman. Both honourable, both good, both heroic knights... but very different.
The difference between an army of Knights and an army of Legionaires is that the Legionaires prefer not to fight solo, but are trained to rely on backup. The Knights on the other hand deck themselves in plate metal and they want to do their part, solo or with others.
So I'd say the Legion probably doesn't rely on true Knights.
This also comes to the fore when you look at the roles of the Legionaires; they have mystics, scouts and they make use of pretty much every talent they can assimilate.
They tend to avoid direct combat as their main or first solution.
And/or they simply don't place all that much trust in straightforward meleecombat..
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
It would be a great way for them to go out in a blaze of glory, fighting for what they believe in.
Sure, let's give the fans of the 5th Age something else to be angry about, eh?
The LoS are still, imo, a great concept, and alot of that is because the 5th Age team is just portraying the KoT as they would inevitably be (truly evil; evil turns upon itself), and the KoS as they always have been (corrupted with the occassional person that actually is what the Knighthood is meant to be).
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Sure, let's give the fans of the 5th Age something else to be angry about, eh?
I meant no disrespect for the feelings of 5th age fans. I was merely trying to provide an epic storyline to be used for home campaigns, if people were interested. If not, they can ignore the idea.
The LoS are still, imo, a great concept, and alot of that is because the 5th Age team is just portraying the KoT as they would inevitably be (truly evil; evil turns upon itself), and the KoS as they always have been (corrupted with the occassional person that actually is what the Knighthood is meant to be).
The KoT are a true tragedy. They were so cool with their honor-bound attitudes in the Chaos War. They've simply degenerated into thugs, akin to the Dragonarmies in many ways.
Anyway, this topic has gone on a tangent a bit, so I'd like to bring it back to the original topic idea, if we could.
Do you guys consider the Legion of Steel to be a knighthood, or are they something else?
I don't really consider them to be a knighthood. The big thing for me is that the organization as a whole doesn't show the characteristics of chivalry or knightly honor. This isn't to say that individual members can't show these traits, merely that the organization as a whole doesn't show these traits.
Alignment is another issue. The two main knighthoods of Krynn are lawful in alignment. The Legion, on the other hand, comes across as NG or possibly CG. Working for the greater good signifies that they place justice above law. Remember, justice and law are not the same thing (although law is based on justice).
Another thing I think of with knights is the idea of mounted cavalry. We see this with the KoS and KoT. With the LoS, this again brings us around to the idea that some individuals portray this role, but we don't see it in place with the overall organization.
To me, the LoS doesn't fit the mold of how I define knighthoods. This isn't to say that they aren't cool in their own right. There's lots of cool things to the Legion, and tons of new directions you can take with them that you may not necessarily be able to take with the knights.
Maybe its just me, but i see the LoS as Democrats(promoting individualism through communal benefit), and the knightly orders as Republicans(supporting communalism by stratifying the social classes and focusing on enforcement of the laws of their own moral judgement). The LoS would be just as happy if everyone were poor, but safe from harm, whereas the knights want to reinstate the aristocracy, and force the masses to follow their code.
Of course, i am a kender, and the Knights aren't too friendly to me. The LoS doesn't concern itself with my kenderness, they are more concerned with my kenderness working for the good of all.
AM
To me, the Legion of Steel is an improvement of the Solamnics and the Nerakans. I'm all for them sticking around - I have no small interest in their continued existence as an organization.
Cheers,
Cam
Yes they have sorcerers and mystics and rogues...but their main force...their largest contributing group of people are warriors. And this is completely lost in the PrCs. There is no good PrC representing this under-realized group.
I also have a problem with it being called a clandestine group. Yes it started out that way. But even Heroes of Steel the FIRST place they were ever explored in great detail said, "although they have some clandestine cells, the Legion has been operating in the open for almost 20 years." Which means it's close to 25 or 30 years now that they've been an open force of knights/warriors.
(oh yeah...and I think that's a poor comparison calling the Knights of Solamnia the "Republicans" and the Legion of Steel "Democrats." The KoS could be "Right-wing conservatives" maybe...but not Republicans. And I don't know what you're inhaling calling the Legion "Democrats." LOL! I'm not even sure where the logic comes on that one. But...we probably shouldn't get into that discussion here. I guess it's just enough to say I disagree with your comparison)
Okay...moving on. Let's talk about the Legacy. This, of course, is the code of conduct that Legion follows. Yes, it's not as specific or clear cut as the Measure or the Code, but that doesn't make it a lesser set of guidelines than the other two.
Have the Courage to Do Right
-Personal Preferences carry no weight and no task is beneath a Legionaire's dignity if it brings about a good end.
-When faced with multiple alternatives, always choose the path most likely to succeed.
-Sometimes it is necessary to harm others to bring about a greater good.
Know Yourself
-Self deception is the weapon that can do the greatest harm to yourself.
-One should never choose a path due to greed, ignorance, fear, or laziness.
-The difference between heroism and villainy depends on how strongly self-interest guides one's thinking.
Respect Virtue
-Respect virtue and only virtue no matter where it's found.
-Station and power do not command respect, only character and goodness do, no matter where they are found.
-Be wary of misdirected virtue.
Stay Alert
-Be skeptical, but consider the possible truths in every lie.
-Always live every moment as if it may be your last.
Everyone Deserves Justice
-Justice should be your primary concern.
-Justice is a two edged sword. On one hand it meets out punishment to the villain, but it can also bring compassion to the victim.
-Justice must seek to heal wounds as vigorously as it seeks vengence.
-Justice can be as generous as it is ruthless.
Never Give Up
-One may leave a task unfinished for the moment, but it can never be forgotten.
-Patience and wisdom can win the day if passion and inginuity have already failed.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Yes they have sorcerers and mystics and rogues...but their main force...their largest contributing group of people are warriors. And this is completely lost in the PrCs. There is no good PrC representing this under-realized group.
That's what the Steel Legionnaire represents. It's also why there was no Legion Warrior PrC in the Age of Mortals book - legion warriors are fighters with the steel legionnaire PrC.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I don't really consider them to be a knighthood. The big thing for me is that the organization as a whole doesn't show the characteristics of chivalry or knightly honor. This isn't to say that individual members can't show these traits, merely that the organization as a whole doesn't show these traits.
See...I think this is where we disagree. I believe that the Legion of Steel does show all this on the whole.
Now, I know the Legacy doesn't say anything specific about "chivalry" as we know it. But then "chivalry" is very...oh...anti-feminist, I guess. In other words, typically "chivalry" in this sense, tends to mean beeing courteous towards women. Now, in Dragonlance...this doesn't work so well because the knighthoods have women among their ranks.
I think the Legacy addresses this very well by having as one of its key points: "Respect Virtue." That means all virtue. Which is kind of the point of chivalry...only it's a little bit more specific.
Secondly...if a Legionaire follows all six major points of the Legacy I don't see how they can be anything but honorable. If they aren't...they they aren't being truthful to themselves...nor are they having the courage to do right.
I don't know. I'm not sure we're ever gonna agree on this, bud.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The KoT are a true tragedy. They were so cool with their honor-bound attitudes in the Chaos War. They've simply degenerated into thugs, akin to the Dragonarmies in many ways.
The Knights of Takhisis were an example of what happens when something horrible and corrupt is considered glorious or noble. When the Knights of Takhisis lost that, they lost what made them different from the Dragonarmies.
Now, we do want a CE war faction of thugs and butchers, and the 5th Age has provided one readily available. The dragon spawn of the various dragon lords (Lorrinar, Mohrlex, Sable, the white twins of Icewall). The Dragon lord fills the role of Takhisis, the Dragonspawn fill the role of highlords, lieutenants and elite troops.
See, the thing about the 5th Age is, they brought in dragonspawn and Legion of Steel as a reaction to the honourable knighthood of the KoN and the honour-bound Knighthood of the KoS. However, then they go and take away the flavour of the KoS and KoN to resemble their newer ideas. Why? Why not allow these new ideas to contrast with the old ones, and fill a new niche in the campaign world?
Do you guys consider the Legion of Steel to be a knighthood, or are they something else?
I would say I think the Legion of Steel is a brotherhood, but not a military order. They do not have soldiers and garrisons, they have cells and operatives. They have one stronghold in the Missing City, but this seems to be for training and a reserve of strength. It is in the middle of the desert, so it doesn't really defend much of anything.
It all comes down to modus operandi. I do not consider the Legion of Steel and "updated version" of the Knights of Nereka or Solamnia because I think there is fundamental differences in what their role in the campaign setting is. The Solamnic Knights are the vanguard and commanders of the Solamnic armies. The Legion of Steel is the hero of the common people, who are sent where a few can do what needs to be done for many.
So I say there need be no more talk about redundancy, or one order replacing the other. They both have an excellent role to play in the campaign setting.
I just really hope that we can get some shine back to the Solamnic knighthood. I want to respect them again, if only so that the rare Solamnic Knight commiting evil or dishonourable actions is a shock again. I should regard the Solamnic Knight with trust, not apprehension.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Secondly...if a Legionaire follows all six major points of the Legacy I don't see how they can be anything but honorable. If they aren't...they they aren't being truthful to themselves...nor are they having the courage to do right.
The Legion can be honorable and yet not be a knighthood. They certainly owe their existence to knightly orders upon whom their foundations rest, even if only to inspire them on what not to do, but they don't seem to have acquired the trappings of aristocracy, a tradition of mounted warfare, any kind of fealty to a sovereign or deity, etc. Rather, they act under a set of guidelines and accordances of virtue and just action, and operate as a fraternal brotherhood. They are, as I suggested earlier, what our real-world knighthoods evolved into once feudalism was phased out of western culture.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
That's what the Steel Legionnaire represents. It's also why there was no Legion Warrior PrC in the Age of Mortals book - legion warriors are fighters with the steel legionnaire PrC.
Yeah...but the Steel Legionaire PrC is...uh, I believe the word I used earlier was "pathetic." It's fine for the former knights...but it is grossly sparse for a new recruit.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Secondly...if a Legionaire follows all six major points of the Legacy I don't see how they can be anything but honorable. If they aren't...they they aren't being truthful to themselves...nor are they having the courage to do right.
See, I think what here is a difference on the definition of honour, not on the definition of Knighthood. If I may be so bold, I think you are refering Brimstone is that honour is adherence to a code of principles. What I think other people refer to as honourable is a more "fair play", "following the rules of war" and "proud machismo".
See, I agree with both of you and I disagree with both of you. I geniunely beleive that the Legion of Steel is honourable, but I also beleive they are more utilitarian, while the Knights of Solamnia are Kantian. The Legion of Steel does what is "the greatest good for the greatest number" while the Knights of Solamnia do what is right out of duty and tradition.
Both have their strengths and weaknesses. For example, the Knights may end up following the measure (or an interpretation of it) rather than following common sense. However, the Legion of Steel may let its pragmatism get the better of them and engage in fairly murky practices. For example, they might beat information out of somebody, or assassinate a powerful villain to prevent a war.
It isn't that the KoS or LoS are not honourable, it is that their codes of honour are different.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Yeah...but the Steel Legionaire PrC is...uh, I believe the word I used earlier was "pathetic." It's fine for the former knights...but it is grossly sparse for a new recruit.
It provides 2 favored enemy bonuses, an equivalent to bardic knowledge, and a cohort. It also has good BAB, two good saves, and 4 skill points/level. What's pathetic about it? It's a flavor PrC, designed to be picked up to give your legion character some additional skills. It's not something a new recruit would have - new recruits don't have PrCs.
Cheers,
Cam
The Legion base prestige class is good though as an add-on for rangers, fighters and barbarians.
Alternately, drop it altogether. I like the Steel Legionnaire, however, since I think even one level of the class is a significant boost to the character, given what line of work they're in.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's not something a new recruit would have - new recruits don't have PrCs.
Sure they do. Knight of the Lily...Knight of the Crown PrCs. They're both for "new recruits."
The Legion needs a PrC like this...and I felt that this was the most important group for the LoS...and it was ignored.
And by "pathetic"...I didn't mean as a PrC it's pathetic...I meant as an "alternative" for the Knight of the Lily or Knight of the Crown, it's pathetic. A Fighter/Steel Legionaire just isn't like a Knight of the Crown...and what I'm saying is that I think the Legion should be on par with those other two groups...and I don't feel that they are. (and I'm not talking about game mechanics or how strong they are...I'm simply saying the LoS deserve a PrC for their "knights.")
Originally posted by Brimstone
I don't know. I'm not sure we're ever gonna agree on this, bud.
Perhaps not. Yet I've come from this with a greater understanding of the Legion and knighthood in general, which is cool.
Originally posted by pddisc
I'm unsure about this.
It may be true that the Legion itself has done questionable things in its time, and through these and the whole covert action thing, can appear not-honourable, but does this really make them so? Individually, all the Legionnaires are very honourable people - a part of joining the Legion is because of a desire to protect, but due to not having a long-established history and loads of resources, has had to make do with mostly guerilla tactics against the near unstoppable foe of the Knights of Neraka in alliance with the Dragon Overlords. Anything they can do has to be a good thing, and since they are plain about their motives and methods, it has to be honourable.
Using my own dictionary here - Honour 1. personal integrity; allegiance to moral principles. Honourable 1. possessing or characterized by high principles. I think the question must be 'is using the practices of the Legion of Steel dishonourable'? I don't think so - they retain their moral code, and if attacking key people or whatever when they are not aware of it is dishonourable, then the armies of the real world have not been honourable since the British army gave up the red coats (depending on whether they were massacring various tribes before or after they doffed the red coats, but you probably get my point). Because everyone does this now, no one thinks so much of it being dishonourable, but having snipers is basically stabbing someone unexpectedly in the back of the head, only with a very tiny knife but at incredible speeds.
Correction: I consider it dishonorable. I may be in a minority of one, but it's still a minority dammit :D! Like I said in my earlier post though, it really depends upon the person. Perhaps I should reword what I said earlier. I feel that practically every action taken by the KoN, much of the tactics of the LoS, and some of the actions of the KoS (much to my disappointment on all accounts) is dishonorable, based off of my CONCEPT of honor. Conception and definition are two completely different ideas, and also no person's concept of honor is incorrect, honor being a rather vague idea. My personal concept of honor is much like Dragonhelm's, chivalrous, knightly behavior. As far as I can tell, the LoS doesn't protray this much.
It also seems that they haven't really done anything major. Just some behind the scenes mopping up and trying to keep things safe for everyone. I don't think that they should become the sole protectors of Ansalon, but rather work in conjunction with the KoS as dual protectors. Perhaps an uneasy peace treaty could be agreed to between them, where the KoS take on the front lines of fighting the foe (much like the fighter in an adventuring party) and the LoS do what they do to attack the foe (much like the rogue in an adventuring party), the best defense being a good offense. Maybe the two groups could just work together. They have the same goal, don't they?
Also, for the first time in the entire history of my posting... I actually agree with Ferratus
:D . I would love to see the KoS be like they were after Sturm influenced them in the Chronicles, and I would also love to see the KoN become like they once were during the Chaos War. On top of all this, I would like to see the LoS accentuate their differences from the KoS and take a stance on the major problems now facing Ansalon.Originally posted by Brimstone
Sure they do. Knight of the Lily...Knight of the Crown PrCs. They're both for "new recruits."
Actually, new recruits would be squires (i.e. Squire of Crown and Squire of Lily). The two PrC’s are after you’ve been tested and accepted into the knighthood.
The Legion needs a PrC like this...and I felt that this was the most important group for the LoS...and it was ignored.
And by "pathetic"...I didn't mean as a PrC it's pathetic...I meant as an "alternative" for the Knight of the Lily or Knight of the Crown, it's pathetic. A Fighter/Steel Legionaire just isn't like a Knight of the Crown...and what I'm saying is that I think the Legion should be on par with those other two groups...and I don't feel that they are. (and I'm not talking about game mechanics or how strong they are...I'm simply saying the LoS deserve a PrC for their "knights.")
Mechanically, the 3-level Steel Legionnaire doesn’t quite compare with the Crown or Lily Knights. As it stands now, a “Legion Warrior” would be a warrior type who took the Steel Legionnaire PrC then continued on in a warrior class.
What sort of abilities could such a PrC have that wouldn’t be covered by other classes?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Actually, new recruits would be squires (i.e. Squire of Crown and Squire of Lily). The two PrC’s are after you’ve been tested and accepted into the knighthood.
:P
I know...that's why I put "new recruits" in quotes.
For all intents and purposes...the design of the Knight of the Crown is for the "new recruits" and the Knight of the Lily is also design for the "new warrior recruits" for the KoN. The Legion should have it's "squirehood" as well (although I think they called them Mentors and Apprentices in Heroes of Steel which is odd since they use the term "knight" every where else).Originally posted by Brimstone
A Fighter/Steel Legionaire just isn't like a Knight of the Crown...and what I'm saying is that I think the Legion should be on par with those other two groups...and I don't feel that they are.
I see where you're coming from, but I think this is more of a conflict in our perceptions of the group rather than a game design issue. The Legion is much, much more inclusive than the Solamnics or the Nerakans - they're so much more rag-tag and open to folks from all walks of life. They don't have a class that you can take at 5th level because such a thing doesn't exist, really - it isn't until you become committed to the Legion as a way of life that you pick up the Steel Legionnaire class (after 6 levels of whatever class you like, in other words). Until then, the Legion would expect you to go along with their way of thinking, help them out in various Legion cells, and that's more or less it.
I should point out that thus far in my campaign, which has the Knights of Neraka as the major opponent for the first story arc, none of the Nerakans have had a Dark Knight PrC except the local guy in charge. All of the Dark Knight encounters have been warriors and fighters of appropriate levels to challenge the party, yet they wear Nerakan armor, carry Nerakan swords, and so on.
In other words, I don't even think of the PrCs as new recruits. I think of them as appropriate for accounting for NPCs who challenge my players when they're mid-level, and variety becomes a factor. At this point, PrCs just aren't in the picture, but it hasn't stopped me from using the organizations.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Paladin's Wrath
I don't think that they should become the sole protectors of Ansalon, but rather work in conjunction with the KoS as dual protectors.
Why dual though? Why not dozens of legitimate authorities and resistance groups?
Maybe the two groups could just work together. They have the same goal, don't they?
Batman and Superman are best friends. ;)
I think for the most part that the Solamnics will be cautious allies of the Legion of Steel. They won't employ them or ask favours from them, but as long as they aren't causing unrest in Solamnia I don't think they'd go out of their way to hinder the Legion either. Some individual rogue knights who have left the Solamnic Knighthood for the Legion would get the cold shoulder though. However, with every passing year new blood that has never had membership in either the Knights of Nereka or Solamnia are filling out the ranks.
Also, for the first time in the entire history of my posting... I actually agree with Ferratus
Just out of curiousity, what did you disagree with me about before? I never saw you raise any objections. ;) I consider myself pretty mainstream when it comes to dragonlance ideas.
I would love to see the KoS be like they were after Sturm influenced them in the Chronicles, and I would also love to see the KoN become like they once were during the Chaos War. On top of all this, I would like to see the LoS accentuate their differences from the KoS and take a stance on the major problems now facing Ansalon.
Variety is the spice of life. If all the good organizations all look the same (or worse, there is only one good organization) then the setting becomes pretty stale. The Legion of Steel should be there for the murkier, grittier and more pragmatic heroes. The dragon spawn make excellent raiders and butchers in the mold of the old dragonarmies. Why not let us have back what made the Knights of Solamnia and Nereka so enchanting in the first place?
Originally posted by ferratus
Why dual though? Why not dozens of legitimate authorities and resistance groups?
Batman and Superman are best friends. ;)
I think for the most part that the Solamnics will be cautious allies of the Legion of Steel. They won't employ them or ask favours from them, but as long as they aren't causing unrest in Solamnia I don't think they'd go out of their way to hinder the Legion either. Some individual rogue knights who have left the Solamnic Knighthood for the Legion would get the cold shoulder though. However, with every passing year new blood that has never had membership in either the Knights of Nereka or Solamnia are filling out the ranks.
Just out of curiousity, what did you disagree with me about before? I never saw you raise any objections. ;) I consider myself pretty mainstream when it comes to dragonlance ideas.
Variety is the spice of life. If all the good organizations all look the same (or worse, there is only one good organization) then the setting becomes pretty stale. The Legion of Steel should be there for the murkier, grittier and more pragmatic heroes. The dragon spawn make excellent raiders and butchers in the mold of the old dragonarmies. Why not let us have back what made the Knights of Solamnia and Nereka so enchanting in the first place?
First off, I can't remember exactly everything I disagreed with you on, but I do remember that those times were many. I didn't voice my opinion though because I could not come up with a decent argument for my position.
Secondly, I refered to them as dual protectors because as of yet, they are the only two groups actually protecting the people. If other groups wish to join this Justice League... :D I mean, um, alliance, they would be wecome to do so.
Whatever the LoS ends up doing though, I would still like to see them take a more prominent role in Ansalon. Who knows, if they decided to grudingly work with the Solamnics, maybe the Minotaur Invasion would be repelled. I just think that would be an interesting roleplaying experience, almost to good to pass up. Also, I know I mentioned this before, but I would like to see the KoS and the KoN return to what they once were. The vision of two honorable warriors on either side of the spectrum facing each other...
It still brings a tear to my eye. :DOriginally posted by Paladin's Wrath
Secondly, I refered to them as dual protectors because as of yet, they are the only two groups actually protecting the people. If other groups wish to join this Justice League... :D I mean, um, alliance, they would be wecome to do so.
With all of these Superman/Batman comparisons, I'm suddenly reminded of The Dark Knight Returns.
Since Brim and I were talking about the Legion of Steel and whether it was a knighthood on another thread, and since Cam and I debated it quite a bit today, I thought it would be good to ressurect this thread from the ashes.
What say you on this subject?
A Knight is almost necessarily lawful. The Legion is most definately NOT lawful. Perhaps neutral, perhaps chaotic, but certainly not lawful. Individuals MAY be lawful, but the organization is not.
Knights are a military organization. The Legion is less like a military than it is a sort of continental resistance movement. Not all of the members are soldiers, and open war is not their specialty.
Knights are nobility. The legion is not tied to any ruling body.
Knights are cavalry, be it heavy horse or dragon. All members of the Legion's "army" are equal members, regardless of specialty. The Solamnian army comprises the Solamnic Knighthood, plus many other groups... peasant footmen, archers, other nobility.
Chivalry as applied to honorable warfare would preclude assassination and deception, both tools available to the Legion. Chivalry in combat precludes the use of deceptive tactics, sneak attack, and other "unfair" tactics. The legion make liberal use of these tactics.
Chivalry is codified. The legacy is not.
Originally posted by adembroski
A Knight is almost necessarily lawful.
Well, then you have to disqualify the KoN as well.
I should amend this to mention that this applies to the KoN in their current state in the 5th Age.
Originally posted by adembroski
The Legion is not bound to any code of Chivalry.
I've pointed this out above (in my post on the Legacy) but I'll reiterate.
The third point of the Legacy is to "respect virtue." To me this is the ultimate chivalry (see above post as to why). Steel Knights/Legionaries (whatever we're gonna call them) will always be chivalrous to those who deserve it. (ie those that are virtuous).
But, like Craig said above, I believe that if you want to stick strictly to the real world definition of "knight" and "chivalry"...then only the Knights of Solamnia qualify. (even in the early days of the Knights of Takhsis, I think)
On a point about the KoN, they lack honor now, yes, but in the early days, they still acted honorably, although in the purpose of evil. Still, actions, not purpose, define honor.
Originally posted by Paladin's Wrath
As far as I can tell (not being an expert on the LoS) they do not have many of the other qualities, such as fighting openly and without deceit.
If you're talking about as an organization fighting an opressive dictator-ish thing...then I guess the Knights of Solamnia aren't knights either, because they too no longer fight openly and without deceit all the time. If you're talking about one on one combat, I do not believe they would fight dirty or deceitfully. However...I'm not sure if they feel their above political assasination (it's just a thought that has just come to me, I'd have to think about it). But the Knights of Nereka are most certainly not above assasination. All I'm saying is that the Legion of Steel is just as much a knighthood as the KoN, and they certainly do more good that the KoS.
Originally posted by Paladin's Wrath
While their purpose is chivalrous, their actions are not.
I don't know where you are getting the idea that their actions are not honorable. This order was founded by and inbred with honor. It was the honorable knights that left the evil order of the KoT when they saw what their knighthood had become. (not all the honorable knights...but only honorable knights left). It is also made up of honorable men from the other side of the spectrum. Lawful does not equate to honorable, nor does non-Lawful equate to dishonorable. I don't understand why that distinction is so hard to make.
I meant in a war situation, they would use things like surprise attacks and assassinations, which leave an opponent without opportunity to defend himself. Because the enemy has no chance to produce challenge, the fight is not fair, which is the very definition of dishonor. The LoS supports such tactics, thus they are dishonorable in combat. Alignment takes no place in this arguement whatsoever. Now, the KoS have blurred the line between honor and dishonor, a fact which has me very disappointed in them. The KoN have completely demolished any pretense of honor, which also has me disappointed. Also, if one tries to look at the politics of everything, one would see that the KoS and the LoS have done about the same amount of good against enemies that are working together. The LoS fights the Dragon Overlords, correct? And the KoS fight the KoN who technically work for the Dragon Overlords. Hence, both have been fighting the same war for a long time, just on different fronts. And, by the way, if the KoN were not being fought by the KoS, they would conquer Ansalon completely, and all of it would be under the control of the KoN, which is just a puppet for the Dragon Overlords. In essence, both the orders have been doing the same job all along and no person seems to see it. This fact is really starting to annoy me. The sooner everyone on both sides sees this, the sooner they would realize that working together is preferable, and that they have been doing so the entire time.
Thus ends my rant. I apologize if I offended anyone, this is just how I, the eternal observer, sees it.
Also, their are still some major threats for the Legion to face. Big Red, Sky (R.I.P.) and Green & Ugly are dead and the Knights of Neraka perminately crippled, but there are still Gale, Sable, Pyro, Fume and the other (Biggie Size) dragons to deal with. Their is also the rising threats of the Minotaur Empire and remaining Titans to deal with.
The Legion is still a force for the new age.
The Knights of Solamnia to me seem to be becoming more and more obsolete anyway. If they don't get a break or get their act strait, they may have the rest of the Free Realms turn their backs on them. Solamnia itself may suffer the same fate and end up breaking up. Unless Solmnia has a renissance or even gets a king
, queen or other central leadership (i.e. high chancellor or prime minister) Solamnia mayl go the same way as the Austria-Hungarian Empire.Originally posted by DaemonAngel
Unless Solmnia has a renissance or even gets a king
If what we heard at GenCon last year is true, it sounds like Doug Niles' new series on Solamnia will include a new king of Solamnia.
As for the Legion of Steel, I see them more as rogues/rangers who are freedom fighters. They don't fight as mounted heavy horsemen, nor do they have a codified tradition. They are honourable, but it is a working man's honour rather than an aristocratic one.
Originally posted by ferratus
As for the Legion of Steel, I see them more as rogues/rangers who are freedom fighters.
I really just don't see the "rogue" part of it. I mean sure, they have a few...just like they have a few mystics and sorcerers. But I really feel the main force of the LoS, the main populace, is an armored, heroic, honorable, code following warrior. (as they're depicted in the SAGA material and by any author from that design team)
Originally posted by Brimstone
I really just don't see the "rogue" part of it. I mean sure, they have a few...just like they have a few mystics and sorcerers. But I really feel the main force of the LoS, the main populace, is an armored, heroic, honorable, code following warrior. (as they're depicted in the SAGA material and by any author from that design team)
I think the reason you get that is due to the Harpers comparison. This analogy (love your sig, Brim) isn't fully accurate, though. Harpers are generally bards and rangers, hiding in the shadows. The Legion does have its fair share of covert operatives, but they're much more militant. I would agree that they have more warriors than anything.
Now that would be an interesting subject. What is the percentage of warriors, rogues/scouts, sorcerers, and mystics within the Legion? How do each of these classes support the whole?
Well...although it seems we might not agree on the whether or not the Legion of Steel is a knighthood, can we at least agree that a sourcebook on the "Knighthoods of Ansalon" would include informational write ups on the Knights of Solamnia, the Knights of Nereka, the Divine Hammer, the Ergothian Cavaliers, and the Legion of Steel?
Technical knighthoods or not...this would definately be the kind of book for those organizations. Man, a book like that would friggin' rock! :D
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well...although it seems we might not agree on the whether or not the Legion of Steel is a knighthood, can we at least agree that a sourcebook on the "Knighthoods of Ansalon" would include informational write ups on the Knights of Solamnia, the Knights of Nereka, the Divine Hammer, the Ergothian Cavaliers, and the Legion of Steel?
Depends on whether the Legion of Steel is a knightood or not.
*ducks!* :D
Seriously, though, I'd be happy with a sourcebook that included the various knighthoods and other military organizations. Perhaps throw the dragonarmies in there if they're not fully covered in War of the Lance.
Technical knighthoods or not...this would definately be the kind of book for those organizations. Man, a book like that would friggin' rock! :D
:D
It would! The books on organizations are perhaps some of my favorites, because they're a nice utility that has enough historical information that you can use them for any era. This is why I'm so jazzed about Towers of High Sorcery.
Now, if I could just get them to put out the Kodragon Kompanion.... ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
get them to put out the Kodragon Kompanion.... ;)
Don't make me come over there, mister!
Cheers,
Cam
1) I'm also basing this on the fact that the general structure of the Legion of Steel isn't military units, but cells of operation.
2) I'm basing this on the fact that the legion members are not uniform, but motley collections of varying races, cultures and professions united by "the common good". They include barbarians, rogues, sorcerers, mystics, nobles and peasant heroes.
3) What battles have the Legion of Steel fought in? I can't think of a single one aside from the off-screen battle in WoS where they helped Alhana's elves beat back some ogres. They operate through individual adventurers or small groups, not massed military units.
4) Almost every Legion of Steel member I've seen in short stories is in deep cover, or operating as a lone ranger type.
5) The prestige classes do not support it. The Legion Scout builds safehouses. The Legion Sorcerer specializes in divination etc.
So where does the military order come in? They might have a smal military presence, but overwhelmingly they seem to be more into being freedom fighters and rallying points for local resistance than operating as a standing military.
That's the way I like it though. The Solamnic Knights should be the elite military forces for good. That gives each knighthood a distinct role in an adventuring party.
But it seems like quite a few authors (except for those on the original 5th Age design team) can't seem to get past the LoS's early years. Rabe has done well with them (at least on the side). In the Dhamon Saga they are definately a powerful force in the regions where the books take place. One town they travel to even has a whole contingent (or garrison, or whatever it's called...a hundred or so Steel knights) stationed there. It might have even been more.
Dhamon joined up with the LoS (not sure if he actually joined though) to fight many battles between EotM and Downfall.
For the most part, though, they haven't been depicted in the novels, so Heroes of Steel is still the best source on them group.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Depends on whether the Legion of Steel is a knightood or not.
Don't make me have to smack you!
Problem is, Sara passed away while the order was still growing, and they never changed their ways to adapt to their ever increasing membership. They may be more formidable now given their numbers, but they are still hampered by old ideals, much the way the Solamnics were for many years by the Oath and Measure. They need to adapt, or degenerate into the "Men In Black" of Krynn, if it's not too late already. That, and they aren't as selective in accepting membership as the other knighthoods are, which is something they might want to reconsider as well.
(only so their order has more elite members, and they can establish a code of conduct or whatever you want to call it, in order to have a standard so people have something to strive to achieve)
Frostdawn, I feel that I have to disagree with you on that. Your plan essentially makes the LoS a replacement for the KoS, which is not needed. As ferratus said in a post from when this topic was up before, variety is the spice of life. Making the LoS more of the gritty, hero-you-hate-to-love type of organization makes them unique, and allows the KoS to remain on the scene. Perhaps a return to the way all the knighthoods/organizations were before when they were just starting out would be better. In this way, you have the KoS as (to resurrect an old analogy) a more Superman type, the LoS as a more Batman type, and the KoN as a more Lex Luthor type. They would cover various aspects of heroic or villianous behavior. That would be better in my opinion.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Don't make me have to smack you!
:fight!:
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Don't make me come over there, mister!
Cheers,
Cam
:fight!:
Originally posted by Brimstone
But it seems like quite a few authors (except for those on the original 5th Age design team) can't seem to get past the LoS's early years. Rabe has done well with them (at least on the side). In the Dhamon Saga they are definately a powerful force in the regions where the books take place. One town they travel to even has a whole contingent (or garrison, or whatever it's called...a hundred or so Steel knights) stationed there. It might have even been more.
Well, I'm all for preservation of the 5th Age material (where it is good) but let's look at this logically. The fact that authors can't get past the LoS early years is because they fill a much needed niche, or class of adventurer, that hadn't been filled before in the Dragonlance Setting. Namely that of the resourceful and ruthless operative and freedom fighter.
See, if you want to play a fighter that is just a noble heavy horseman, then why not play a Solamnic? Why rob the Legion of Steel of its uniqueness just to make them into a second string Solamnic Knighthood? I for one like the idea of a Knighthood in Krynn where I can play a Tom Clancy-esque hero.
Originally posted by ferratus
See, if you want to play a fighter that is just a noble heavy horseman, then why not play a Solamnic? Why rob the Legion of Steel of its uniqueness just to make them into a second string Solamnic Knighthood? I for one like the idea of a Knighthood in Krynn where I can play a Tom Clancy-esque hero.
I'm not robbing them of their uniqueness. I don't see them as noble heavy horsemen. But I do see them as a group of heavily armed freedom fighters with a strong sense of honor and chivalry.
Why do they have to be horsemen to be considered knights?
The Solamnic knights fight for good, the Nerakan knights fight for evil, Steel knights fight for justice.
It really doesn't matter, I know what the Legion of Steel is to me, and that's all that really matters, I suppose.
Avoiding the use of the term "knighthood" then allows us to focus on the fact that Ansalon has a number of military orders that share common traits - a unified code or set of rules, badges of office, some form of structure or leadership, entry requirements or rites, notable founders, martial training, and more often than not some kind of divine or spiritual bond which connects its membership.
I doubt we'd have any dissent on the above, if the previous discussion is any indication. Note that I'm not denying the Legion is composed of knights and former knights, just that it's not helpful to make reference to their existence as knights instead of their membership in a military order.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Brimstone
I'm not robbing them of their uniqueness. I don't see them as noble heavy horsemen. But I do see them as a group of heavily armed freedom fighters with a strong sense of honor and chivalry.
Honour I agree with, but I don't see chivalry. You know, the proper conduct between noble enemies, the proper treatment of peasants, the proper ettiquette when dealing romantically with a lady. The honour of the Legion of Steel is a blue-collar honour, not an aristocratic one. A "do good and be cool" kind of honour.
Why do they have to be horsemen to be considered knights?
That is the baggage that knighthood has. The Nerekans and Solamnics fight as heavily armed calvary fighters, whether by horse or dragonback. The militias provided by the manorial estates of Solamnia and the cities such as Palanthas fill out the rank and file. They knights serve as the commanders or the shock calvary charge.
The Legion, in contrast, is not an aristocratic club. A military organization certainly, and one that contains a small standing army around the Missing City. However, their primary means of operation is through small adventuring bands and companies.
The Legion of Steel are good guys (I remember ardently arguing a few short years ago that they were not by any stretch of the imagination a neutral order). However, they do not function as a knights tactically, and they are not a knighthood in its culture and trappings. Do they have a strong idealistic streak? Of course.
The Solamnic knights fight for good, the Nerakan knights fight for evil, Steel knights fight for justice.
Well, the Solamnics fight for Justice too, that's what makes them good.
Originally posted by ferratus
Well, the Solamnics fight for Justice too, that's what makes them good.
Yes...but there's stipulation with that. They'll fight for Justice if they like you...but they'll flat out ignore your pleas otherwise (latest case in point, the elves).
The Legion will fight injustice where ever it rears its head.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Yes...but there's stipulation with that. They'll fight for Justice if they like you...but they'll flat out ignore your pleas otherwise (latest case in point, the elves).
Unfortunately, there's what should be done and then there's what actually is done.
By the way, the Nexus just opened a poll on this very topic, so be sure to cast your vote.
Vote Now
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
By the way, the Nexus just opened a poll on this very topic, so be sure to cast your vote.
I didn't see an option for "the Legion, like the Knights of Solamnia and the Knights of Neraka, is a military order that includes knights".
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I didn't see an option for "the Legion, like the Knights of Solamnia and the Knights of Neraka, is a military order that includes knights".
Cheers,
Cam
That's a bit nitpicky there, Cam. I can't count for every itty bitty contingency. Military order is already covered.
By this logic, I should also have, "The Legion, like the Knights of Solamnia and Knights of Neraka, is a military order that includes clerics." Then I'd have to go into every possible class, and that's a bit much.
If you wish, I'll add "other".
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I didn't see an option for "the Legion, like the Knights of Solamnia and the Knights of Neraka, is a military order that includes knights".
Yep...gonna have to go with Cam on this one.
"The vote is rigged!" cry arose from the stands. ;)
I was doing my best to be as fair and impartial as possible, and even put the option of the Legion being a knighthood at the top. Had I wanted to rig the poll, I would have put it at the bottom.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Brim, I think it is common enough knowledge what types of characters make up the Legion of Steel. This includes former Knights of Solamnia and former Knights of Neraka/Takhisis. This is all covered by my "military order" option.
No...I'm not saying the order is made up of former knights.
I'm saying the Legion of Steel is a military order that has knights as part of their ranks. Not former knights...they are Steel Knights. That's what I'm saying (maybe that's not what Cam meant)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I was doing my best to be as fair and impartial as possible, and even put the option of the Legion being a knighthood at the top. Had I wanted to rig the poll, I would have put it at the bottom.
Um...okay. You realize I was joking, right?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
That's a bit nitpicky there, Cam. I can't count for every itty bitty contingency. Military order is already covered.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be nitpicky. I had to go for number 2, since I view the Legion as a military order. But I would answer number 2 for the Solamnics and the Nerakans, too, neither of which I would label a "knighthood" for reasons I've already brought up. But they are knights. If that makes sense.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Brimstone
No...I'm not saying the order is made up of former knights.
I'm saying the Legion of Steel is a military order that has knights as part of their ranks. Not former knights...they are Steel Knights. That's what I'm saying (maybe that's not what Cam meant)Um...okay.
I thought this was covered under both options A and B, depending on how you view the knighthood.
Maybe I should just take the poll down.
You realize I was joking, right?
Yeah, I know. I'm just having a bad day.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Yeah, I know. I'm just having a bad day.
I hear you. This isn't my favorite Monday, either.
Do you think a better poll would be, "are members of the Legion of Steel knights?" Because I could answer that one!
Cheers,
Cam
Oh well, it doesn't matter anymore. We're just chasing our tails on this, and really, it's now lost all interest in discussion for me.
Since it's so conveniently popular quoting a dictionary when talking of definitions (wonder why) here's an interesting passage:
"Borrowed from French, as were so many other important words having to do with medieval English culture, the English word chivalry is first recorded in works composed around the beginning of the 14th century and is found in several senses, including "a body of armored mounted warriors serving a lord" and "knighthood as a ceremonially conferred rank in the social system." Our modern sense, "the medieval system of knighthood," could not exist until the passage of several centuries had allowed the perspective for such a conceptualization, with this sense being recorded first in 1765."
Has our view on past history corrupted the actual image of the knight into the idealized one we now have? Definitely. Does that mean that there never were any knights in the ideal sense? Definitely not. It's just hard trying to make the distinction because we'd need someone who had experienced both the live and the historic view (like that knight at the end of the third Indy flick).
To me the Legion most closely resembles the ideal they set out to be. The Solamnics have always been caught up in trying to follow their code at the expense of the reason for that code (the people), while the Nerakese became less a knighthood and more a self-contracted group of mercenaries after the death of Ariakan and his example. Out of the three the Legion is the most chivalrous in making the protection of the civilian populations their priority.
Originally posted by ferratus
To draw a superhero analogy, a Solamnic Knight is Superman... while a Legionnaire of Steel is Batman. Both honourable, both good, both heroic knights... but very different.
I see the Solamnics more as Cyclops, the 'first' X-Man. He is oft arrogant and self-absorbed, yet cares deeply about the cause of good.
I agree that the Legion is 'mr.vigilante' Batman.
And the Nerakans? Dr.Doom. He has honor, but it's his kind of honor, and he only uses it to further his own purposes.