After months and months of my saying 'it just has some edits to go through' it's finally uploaded.
"Have fun, enjoy my labor of love to the setting, and blame any grammer errors on..." *points at A'kin* "HIM!"
;)
Any and all comments would be appreciated, as well as any errors in content or things I may have overlooked as well.
One can always ask for more, I guess
, but what is there is very good. Not at all lacking when compared to the good, classic planescape products of the TSR days.You only want errors, not my praise? Well...let me read it more thoroughly then
It's finally out! And I will provide feedback! Once I've read it! This I swear, by The Lady's rusty piercings!
Actually, if it were a torus it would be closed. The Planescape boxed set described it as the inside of a tire, which is what I meant. The illustration supports this.
That section got altered a bit in the edits, and I honestly don't recall what changed between my version and the edited one, though I'll admit to using 'torus' initially. My bad.
But exactly what Sigil is - a torus, the inside of a tire, a "flat" ring, a mobius strip - has been a somewhat difficult question.
No seriously Shemmie - I'ev been watching you write and edit, edit and write (and gone over your grammar myself with a red ink pen)... it's nice to see it out. Finally!
1. I saw the mention of the calendar, by this reference, am I correct in assuming that the one you were referring to was the same that was put on the Mimir site?
2. Also, although maybe I just missed it, but I didn't see where the Sigil Advisory Council's base of operations were. So, where do they meet? (If it's in there and I just missed it, then just tell me that it's there and I'll look again).
A more in depth reading will come a little later tonight, so I may have more questions, but I love what I've read so far, so good job.
2) And it seems that the location of the council's meetings got left out or removed in some of the revisions, probably an oversight of mine when writing. 'Faction War' was no help on this matter as it never addresses a location for the council either as far as I saw.
I'd originally invisioned it as meeting in a different place in a different ward each time it was called to session (though perhaps it might skip the Hive for security reasons). Places such as the Hall of Speakers, the Park of the Infernal and the Divine, various private halls and guildhalls etc. This so as to not show bias towards one ward or another.
I wanted to leave enough room here for DM's to come up with their own places and locations for the council to meet. I've had them meeting in public in the Park of the Infernal and the Divine in my own campaign, and it's been rowdy and contentious every time they've met. "Congress on a two drink minimum." as one of my players said after the first meeting. There were arguments, two assaults in the crowd, and a near riot after Jeremo the Natterer publically declared that he was the factol of a faction, in Sigil, and for The Lady to strike him down if he was in violation of her edicts.
So yes, there's an oversight there, and one that I'll correct, but I'd like to leave this open for people to play with. Hope that answers your question.
And yes, my questions have been answered.
I will, however, have to do a more in depth study of the council members so I can role play them appropriately. In my campaign that I am currently DMing, if my pc's ever get the chance to witness a meeting, I'll want to try my best to recreate the chaos that you have described.
And as for the Council, heck I've already had elections in my own campaign and replaced about 4 members of the council as it appears in the Planewalker guide. *chuckle*
And to boot, I have one member hinting at retirement, and interested groups already polishing their knives to run for the open seat themselves, or buy the votes of the person elected.
There's so much room for the folks on the council, either as written, or to alter and goof with in your own campaigns. Thats half the fun, putting your own spin on the setting and running away with it.
A thorough piece of work, though of course a bit sparse, but I guess that is unavoidable...
My favorite stuff is the character writeups, perhaps especially Rhys.
(gram.error in that part..Vouncil?)
Well, I have one specific grievance, which I am sure you are not really to blame for...why did you guys decide to kill off Ely Cromlich? The guy is a fantastic planar NPC, in my opinion...
Keep up the good work.
Would like to write more, but...later.
The Challenge: To get new players into the setting.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Good job Shem. Its good to see our favorite setting alive and well again.
The Challenge: To get new players into the setting.
That has long been our goal, and lots of thought goes into how best to achieve it. Feel free to post some ideas, but on another thread. This one's for Shemie ;)
I personally would love to see more info on Lothar, unless the team thinks it better to leave him more of a mysterious power in Sigil. Also, what about my noble employer, and his fine establishment?
That said Ely did fall willingly into a sphere on Annihilation. I guess you could say that it didn't actually say he was enveloped by it, or that he did actually die from the normal process of obliteration. *shrugs and smiles* He was a fun character.
Also, with regards to the Parted Veil bookshop, sorry Sir Cleve but it was one of the shops that didn't get mentioned. There were a number of places that I would have loved to include more information on, but simply couldn't because of space issues. Heck the chapter is nearly as long as the entire chapter on the factions, all of them. I got some pressure to keep the length down past a certain point, and indeed some stuff did get cut outright or I never included for the sake of brevity.
And I'm curious what anyone thinks about the various plot hooks that got tossed out, and for the intro flavor text that forms a tad of the introduction to the plot(s) we'll have developed for the modules, etc as we produce more stuff.
Harys Hatchis (NG male human Wiz8 Free League)
and in another as
Harys Hatchis (NG male human Wiz11 Free League)
it's not a blazingly horrid typo, but it did catch my eye.
*goes back to reading...*
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
That said Ely did fall willingly into a sphere on Annihilation. I guess you could say that it didn't actually say he was enveloped by it, or that he did actually die from the normal process of obliteration. *shrugs and smiles* He was a fun character.
Wouldn't that be frustrating for a devotee of Entropy? WHY CAN'T I DIE?
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
And as for the Council, heck I've already had elections in my own campaign and replaced about 4 members of the council as it appears in the Planewalker guide. *chuckle*
An "election" you call it? The way I remember, there was an assassin with a knife involved. You never give up, do you.
Anyway, excellent job. Our lovely City of Doors finally has a 3e home.
And the rest of you, from now on, when someone asks "Who's the Lady of Pain?" or "What's Sigil?" just link them to this.
No more 'Who is The Lady of Pain', 'What is Sigil' and 'Why does Shemmy have a male symbol next to her name in Uncaged:Faces of Sigil' questions...
;)
I know you couldn't possibly help but raise far more questions than you answered, but there are a few places where I think it would have better to give at least a little more information than you did.
First of all, I'm sorry you couldn't fit in more information about some of the factions, specifically about the Fraternity of Order's involvement with the Hands of Time, and about what the Anarchists are doing in Sigil. Are any cells currently trying to overthrow the Advisory Council? It might have been a good idea to have a section in which you gave us 1 or 2 sentences of new information per faction regarding what each of the factions is currently doing in Sigil.
You mentioned Harbinger House in passing. Does it still exist in Sigil, now that the Believers of the Source are gone? If so, who is running it today? You also mentioned something called the Great Library in passing. Again, who runs this, and where is it located?
I also noted that you and A'kin both have some levels in Sorceror. Can I presume those in addition to the ability to cast spells as a 12th level Wizard that other Arcanaloth's have?
And could you please tell us a little more about the mysterious writer who appears in your opening? Is he The Editor?
Of course, the single greatest flaw in your text is that I am not mentioned in it. Fortunately, I am a rogue modron, and therefore I am far too unemotional to be bitter. ;) Seriously though, I really enjoyed reading your guide to 'modern' Sigil. Thank you for writing it.
And I'm curious what anyone thinks about the various plot hooks that got tossed out, and for the intro flavor text that forms a tad of the introduction to the plot(s) we'll have developed for the modules, etc as we produce more stuff.
Shemi, as far as some of the plots go, I'll tell you a couple that I have an extreme interest in. The plans of Friar Muriov Garianis and Oridi Malefin for the Shattered Temple, and the subsequent stoppage of work due to what has been found in the tunnels below. And also, what exactly is happening in the Palace of the Jester that causes the dabus to avoid the place and even has Jeremo somewhat spooked. Both of these really stuck out, and if I can find a way to work them into my campaign, then I'll give it a go. These aren't the only ones that I found intriguing by far, but these are the two that really stick out.
As far as NPC's go, Fell and his situation is the main one where my mind starts to wander. Why does he still have clerical powers? Was he truly given the status of a proxy before Aoskar was killed? Is Aoskar rising from the dead? Why has Fell not yet felt the wrath of Her?
My opinion? I absolutely love what I see. Now, I'll admit that it's partially because it just more Planescape goodness, but the majority of my opinion comes from the fact that the piece was well written and, more importantly, very well thought out.
I'm sure that I'll ask you from time to time for either some minor clarification on some subject, or your overall opinion on something that I'm planning, so I hope that you don't mind.
Harbinger house does still exist, though I didn't include any info on who is still running it, or if the old prisoners are still there. Room to play with, though while I didn't write it down I had figured that the Dabus themselves might be caretakers if no other group took up the mantle.
The Great Library was mentioned somewhere in the PS literature, though I can't for the life of me remember exactly where. I want to say Dabus run it, but I'd need to look it up to see what is previous work and what was my own additions if any.
And yes, any celestial/fiend/etc in the guide that has caster levels at all adds them to their innate caster abilities. Cirily for example has some bard levels IIRC.
And as far as the intro text, the writer... I will say it isn't A'kin. Beyond that... *smiles* Oh I'm sorry I just remembered that I had a dinner meeting to get to, sorry this interview is over and I must be going...
Originally posted by Ornum
Shemi, as far as some of the plots go, I'll tell you a couple that I have an extreme interest in. The plans of Friar Muriov Garianis and Oridi Malefin for the Shattered Temple, and the subsequent stoppage of work due to what has been found in the tunnels below. And also, what exactly is happening in the Palace of the Jester that causes the dabus to avoid the place and even has Jeremo somewhat spooked. Both of these really stuck out, and if I can find a way to work them into my campaign, then I'll give it a go. These aren't the only ones that I found intriguing by far, but these are the two that really stick out.
As far as NPC's go, Fell and his situation is the main one where my mind starts to wander. Why does he still have clerical powers? Was he truly given the status of a proxy before Aoskar was killed? Is Aoskar rising from the dead? Why has Fell not yet felt the wrath of Her?
Well all of those particular plots were already in canon, and never expanded upon.
As far as Fell goes, thats one of the great mysteries of the setting there.
For the other two you mentioned, I of course have my own ideas on where those are heading, but of course it all depends on who next takes a shot at them in the writing process. In my own campaign (which has already deviated significantly from the PW material in some notable cases) I've actually resolved the conflict between the Athar and Garianis/Malefin; however the way it progressed and ended ties into events in my own campaign in such a way that its unlikely that I'd push for the same events to happen in canon.
In a similar way I've had far, far too much fun in the underhalls of the Palace of the Jester in my own campaign, as my players here will attest to, and I honestly don't know if any of that will ever hop over to Planewalker, it all depends on much more than my own whims. I've tried to keep my work on Planewalker divorced from the events, NPCs and plots of my own weekly game in the extreme. In fact there's been far more backflow from PW material going into my own campaign than from my own campaign over to PW. I can name perhaps one or two things from my own game that got translated over onto PW, and those got modified heavily in the transition.
At some point I'll either write up a storyhour of the campaign plot, and/or release all of that material online as a module or an idea mine for people to snag ideas from. It's around a year and a half old at the moment, and just over the halfway point for the metaplot, so I've been putting more time than is healthy into it. It's as much my baby as the Sigil Guide was. Eventually I'l share it all if anyone might find it interesting or useful to pillage. :D
And now go bludgeon the person with your books ;)
Also, I forgot to add to my previous post that I would like to read some of your campaign plot, if possible. I don't plan on taking anything from it, other than setting a goal for how I should run my campaign. From what I've read of your campaign (the little tidbits that you actually give, dangling it like bait in our faces), I could learn alot.
Its like trying to traverse a maze made by Esher, or a Gordian Knot. But then, off in the distance you see a slight glimmer of logic in the distance to give you freaken hope.
Then eventually, when you've almost lost hope, a missing piece of the puzzle falls into place and you experience a Eurika moment roughly equivalent to one part discover, two parts Murphy's Law.
The game preceeds as two parts conspiracy theory, one part elegant balley, and 3 parts downward spire (us, getting deeper and deeper)
I hope I can one day achieve this level of story telling, and honestly I would be suprised if Shemmy doesn't get a series out of this.
I've got a summary of the first 1/4 of the campaign or so already written, I'll have to find where I stashed it and then post a link to it somewhere.
I'll comment more on the Guide to Sigil once i finaly have time to finish reading it.
One: Aoskarite genocide.
"The temple was reduced to rubble along with the city surrounding it, and Aoskar, along with all of his mortal worshippers throughout the multiverse, were killed by the lancing shadow of Her Serenity in a single moment of horror."
First time I hear she's actually executed millions of people throughout the planes in an instant. Where, in the original Planescape setting, was it stated that the Lady's powers could be extended outside her Cage? Or is this an addition? If so, are you really sure it's a good idea?
Two: Square brackets.
I've read about half of the document, and so far not much of those closely guarded yugoloth-class darks have been revealed. Why is the infamous "[- The Editor]" working on this document, anyway? Why all the intrigue, if it's just a tour guide for the clueless, and an update for the bloods that have been out-of-touch for years? Shouldn't you have saved this mysterious, enigmatic, and obviously dog-faced author for some more secretive work to come, like, erm, Councilors Manifesto or something? (not too catchy, huh?)
As far as Aoskar and the genocide bit. No it was never stated previously anywhere, but most of the accounts of the event were dim and hazy to begin with. Also, you might want to consider the source of the material, The Editor, and any ulterior motives of his in pushing the dark that worshippers could die just as easily as a power who tried to take Sigil.
Also, there's some question about if Factol Skall of the Dustmen was inside or outside of Sigil when he was mazed. If we take that as an implication of The Lady's power outside of Sigil, selectively used in defense of the city, it wasn't deemed too extreme to allow that one step further with regards to Aoskar himself who got about as close to taking Sigil as anyone ever has. That seemingly legitimate of a threat became an example that has lasted through the millennia.
I'm surprised it took this long for someone to notice that and raise some questions, if not outright objections to it. Still, it survived the edits by the other folks at PW.
As far as The Editor writing anything more, it depends on the nature of the next few chapters. He may write some particular sections, or not, I've not been given anything definate to write next. Well at least nothing with a deadline yet since I just finished chapter 7, which has been my only released work up so far.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
As far as Aoskar and the genocide bit. No it was never stated previously anywhere, but most of the accounts of the event were dim and hazy to begin with. Also, you might want to consider the source of the material, The Editor, and any ulterior motives of his in pushing the dark that worshippers could die just as easily as a power who tried to take Sigil.
Also, there's some question about if Factol Skall of the Dustmen was inside or outside of Sigil when he was mazed. If we take that as an implication of The Lady's power outside of Sigil, selectively used in defense of the city, it wasn't deemed too extreme to allow that one step further with regards to Aoskar himself who got about as close to taking Sigil as anyone ever has. That seemingly legitimate of a threat became an example that has lasted through the millennia.
I'm surprised it took this long for someone to notice that and raise some questions, if not outright objections to it. Still, it survived the edits by the other folks at PW.
I still don't like having The Lady reach out of Sigil. It sounds totally out of character, as she's always been defined as the protector of the city, first and foremost. Also, 2E sources have hinted several times IIRC that Sigil is her cage, as in she's stuck there. Not to mention the "So, can she kick Zeus' ass?" type of questions that are bound to come up...
Regarding the Skall issue - if she could maze him when he was out-of-town, why couldn't she maze Rhys? She didn't want to? Trying to guess the motives of Her Serenity shouldn't be done too often, and especially not in a document that's primarily for new players (and I assume Chapter VII is).
So the [- the Editor] is misleading us? Great, but that's campaign material, not setting material.
IMHO, of course.
Originally posted by Manowater989
What do you (Shemeska) think about what I said about the Sgil Advisory Council? Would you consider changing the name to something more ancient-and-mystical sounding?
Well the name was there as of the end of Faction War, and there wasn't any real push to alter it, so for now it's where it is, for better or for worse.
Originally posted by Weenie
I still don't like having The Lady reach out of Sigil. It sounds totally out of character, as she's always been defined as the protector of the city, first and foremost. Also, 2E sources have hinted several times IIRC that Sigil is her cage, as in she's stuck there. Not to mention the "So, can she kick Zeus' ass?" type of questions that are bound to come up...
Regarding the Skall issue - if she could maze him when he was out-of-town, why couldn't she maze Rhys? She didn't want to? Trying to guess the motives of Her Serenity shouldn't be done too often, and especially not in a document that's primarily for new players (and I assume Chapter VII is).
Well the general feeling was that w/ regards to protecting Sigil, there's only pragmatism involved, not morality or pause. If the threat to Sigil itself was great enough, an action that preserved it wouldn't be subject to the normal reluctance to act outside of Sigil. Assume perhaps that The Lady can reach outside, but has no reason to do so, She's simply not concerned in the least with anything but The City of Doors. Or perhaps some rule or property of Sigil prevents Her from acting outside of The City of Doors unless it directly involves actions to protect it.
I didn't see that one line as any more egregious than the number of sentances in Die Vecna Die that attempted to partially define The Lady. In fact I found the Aoskar material in the PW chapter to be less drastic. But that's just my feeling. Future material by others, or myself, might call this into question, or perhaps give history that might further define why/how etc of this.
For instance, Aoskar's death may have had a feedback to many of his worshippers, killing them because of the strength of their belief due to the circumstances of his death. He unwittingly may have killed them, a side effect of Her Serenity slaying him, not a direct action of her part. All of that was filtered IC by witnesses (one can question who survived to tell the tale admittidly), the passage of time, and legends that grew up around such an event.
If people abandoned their faith amid the death of the priests perhaps of their deity, and the massive anathema that surrounded the trappings of the faith of Aoskar, it might have seemed that his worship vanished overnight, leading some to believe that The Lady slew his mortal worshippers as well as the portal father himself.
Just some additional speculation on my part, and the PW material is subject to errata/clarification if there are faults or errors. I've got a number of changed things to upload in the next few days.
Anyways, thank you very much for your comments, I appreciate them.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
If the threat to Sigil itself was great enough, an action that preserved it wouldn't be subject to the normal reluctance to act outside of Sigil. Assume perhaps that The Lady can reach outside, but has no reason to do so, She's simply not concerned in the least with anything but The City of Doors. Or perhaps some rule or property of Sigil prevents Her from acting outside of The City of Doors unless it directly involves actions to protect it.
As I said, I don't like making assumptions when it comes to her motives. The idea in 2E was "Well, she's the Lady who knows what she can do", so adding actual facts that clearly display the scope of her powers, or at least remove some limits that were assumed (sic) to exist, should only be done when and if neccessary IMHO. The Aoskar sidebar could have done without it, is all.
I didn't see that one line as any more egregious than the number of sentances in Die Vecna Die that attempted to partially define The Lady.
Haven't played DVD myself, but isn't it generally regarded as a perfect example of just plain bad Planescape material?
If people abandoned their faith amid the death of the priests perhaps of their deity, and the massive anathema that surrounded the trappings of the faith of Aoskar, it might have seemed that his worship vanished overnight, leading some to believe that The Lady slew his mortal worshippers as well as the portal father himself.
Yes, well, religions do tend to die overnight when the deity itself dies, so I don't think Aoskar would be much of an exception there.
Anyways, thank you very much for your comments, I appreciate them.
You're very welcome. I don't want to sound as if the Aoskarite genocide issue is a major one to me, I originally just wanted to know if it was a new thing, but got dragged into explaining my views on the importance of not knowing Her Serenity's limits...
I have some issues with the ending pages etc, but I ended up being on the side of including parts of the module rather than just discounting it. But DVD has some material that's generally considered apocryphal by many fans of the setting.
Anyways, again thank you for your thoughts, they're appreciated greatly.
I too don't like the idea that The Lady can affect people outside the cage. In my game Aoskar was lured into the city by The Lady with the use of Fell. Basically Fell was able to get Aoskar to manifest withit the city and then smash. Of course he became a proxy to Aoskar to keep up the ruse. The Lady didn't smite him because of the service that he rendered to her but he cannot rejoin the rest of the Dabus because of the Godly power that is now imbued within him.
Skall is a different issue. I thought that he was building an army of undead to help Sigil reach True Death. (He was an NE Lich, what were you expecting) I figured that he was in Sigil when the Faction War was in full swing putting the last touches on his plan when he got his new home.
I also like to think that Skall was on the negative energy plane during the war and didn't actually get mazed, but since so many other factols did, he's currently letting everyone think he was done away with as well, including the vast majority of his faction. Bringing back some of the old factols later to shake things up has way too much potential for fun plots. Skall may just show up again, same with Nilesia. She was just sold into slavery on the lower planes. She could come back. I think Skall's just been around too long to get so carelessly mazed in a war that his faction barely took part in.
'Course, it's rumored that skall's presence in the mortuary was usually a very advanced Project Image spell. If he could get a projected image into the cage from the negative energy plane, (which would be quite the trick) who's to say he couldn't do the same from a maze, and continue running his faction as well as before? It seems logical to me that it'd be *easier* to get a spell to cross the sigil/everywhere else barrier from a maze.
Of course, I like to think that the Lady can act outside of sigil in certain circumstances, and eventually might, just to scare the crap out of certain malcontents that do their plotting outside the cage, "away" from the watchful eye and keen blade of Her Serenity. If she can't, then her primary vulnerability would be to anyone who could control the other end of the portals to the cage. If you can control the non-sigil end of the portals, you could tell the Lady to suck eggs, and never bother stepping inside Sigil. Without it's portals, Sigil's just another bit of rock in a peculiar place. Let's see... a diety with dominion over portals... perhaps someone who made them... a diety who, let's say, "fathered" portals... Nah. Couldn't happen.
A "Portal Father"? That's crazy talk!I do like to think that she can't maze anyone outside sigil though. Mazes are really a bit of sigil spun off into the deep etheral and grown to enormous size. I like to think that if the lady can act outside of Sigil, her power is limited to just plain flaying the
out of you.I can't really tell if that went off-topic or not. We really need a board where topics are officially allowed to go off-topic.
Is this my utter lack of internet savvy showing or hasn't that section been released yet?