I don't recall having seen anything in any Dragonlance product that directly addressed this issue. Near as I can figure, the following human ethnic groups make Ansalon their home:
Ergothian (located in Northern Ergoth, Saifhum)
Solamnic (located in Solamnia, Sancrist, Southern Ergoth)
Icefolk (located in Icereach)
Lahutians (located in Estwilde)
Nordmaarans (located in Nordmaar)
Khur (located in the deserts of Khur)
Kharolian (located in and around Tarsis)
Plainsmen (located in Schallsea, Abanasinia and the Plains of Dust)
Wemitowuk (located in Schallsea)
The following ethnic groups I'm unsure of (in whether they can actually be considered a seperate ethnic group, or whether they populate the indicated region, and sometimes both):
Nerakese [or same ethnicity as Solamnics?] (located in Neraka and perhaps Balifor?)
Istaran [the precursors of the Nerakese?] (located in and around the Blood Sea, perhaps Balifor?)
Abanasinian [or same as Solamnics?] (located in Abanasinia)
Ran-Eli [or are they the same ethnicity as the humans that dominated Istar?] (located in Elian)
What do you all think?
Originally posted by iltharanos
Ethnicity being generally defined (for these purposes) as certain physical and cultural traits attributed to similarly situated groups of people. I don't recall having seen anything in any Dragonlance product that directly addressed this issue.
One of the biggest complaints I've heard about Dragonlance as a setting is that all the human lands look exactly the same. So I definately think the world is overdue for cultural detail. Hopefully the upcoming Atlas will help to change this, and make Dragonlance a place with more variety.
Near as I can figure, the following human ethnic groups make Ansalon their home:
Ergothian (located in Northern Ergoth, Saifhum)
Don't forget that there are many Ergothian humans in Southern Ergoth, East of the Lastgaard mountains. Zhea Harbour, Pontigoth, Daltigoth, Vocalion and other cities abound there, which the Ogres ruled over as masters. Unless of course Gellidus killed them all through starvation and cold. That would be a huge mistake, since this is the only ancient human empire in Krynn dominated by barbaric masters. We don't need another pure ogre kingdom in the mold of Kern and Blode.
Solamnic (located in Solamnia, Sancrist, Southern Ergoth)
I've always wondered how (and hoped that) the Solamnics in the colonies differed from their cousins on the Solamnic mainland. In Sancrist I made them much more progressive and in love with gnomish technology. In Southern Ergoth (since it was forested) I made them much more in the mold of frontiersmen and rangers who followed the counsels of druids.
Lahutians (located in Estwilde)
The Lahutians are very interesting indeed. Cannibals whose tribal leaders declare themselves gods and demand worship and sacrifices from their subjects. It would be suitable, I think, to have those tribal leaders be mystics. Their more precise location is the Woods of Lahue (hence the name Lahutians) putting them firmly under the green dragon Lorrinar's rule.
Aside from the Lahutians in Northern Ansalon, there are also the Lor-Tai who are "members of a primitive docile tribe that inhabits hillside caves in the northern tropics". (Dragonlance Monstrous Compendium 4). I'm not sure if they have been given a place in modern Dragonlance alongside the Lahutians. I hope so.
Nordmaarans (located in Nordmaar)
They ride chariots! I explained that because they live in largely plains area (west of the Moors) and have Wemics as enemies. Having a horseman against a Wemic would be suicide, since wemics could just pounce on your mount and rip it to shreds. A moving platform with the speed of four horses, with an archer or a spear-thrower on it... and you've got a chance.
Of course, Wemics are a big part of the Forgotten Realms these days, and are featured in Monsters of Faerun. I don't know if they have survived to modern dragonlance. If they haven't, we need another reason why they still use chariots.
Khur (located in the deserts of Khur)
I assumed that Port Balifor and Flotsam's residents were also of Khurrish descent, since Goodlund in pre-cataclysmic times was Khurish desert.
Kharolian (located in and around Tarsis)
It would be interesting to see if the Kharolians are the base of the Solamnic, Ergothian and Abanisanian cultures. The Ergothians are white in Paul B. Thompson's and Tonya Cook's novels, with the black skinned Ergothians we are used to seeing being "Sea People" who settled in Ergoth. This would have been a surprise to the 5th Age folks I think, who portrayed Ackal Ergot and the Ergothians as being universally black.
I'm starting to wonder though, perhaps the Black Ergothians came largely post-cataclysm, settling in Ergoth and Saifum from a Northern Continent? Perhaps they came in ancient times, but were a mariner caste for untold generations? Something that has to be reconciled, to be sure.
Plainsmen (located in Schallsea, Abanasinia and the Plains of Dust)
I also made that connection, and also ascribed the Plainsmen as inhabiting the New Coast (since there are a bunch of barbaric villages there on the TotL map). The interesting thing about the Plainsmen is that they we've got a little bit of a glitch there too. Paul and Tonya have a barbarian tribe in ancient times known as the Dom-Shu (obviously supposed to be of the same ethnicity of the Que-Shu), while the 5th Age and the original modules have the Que-Nal and other tribes with the "Que" prefix to denote "people".
Personally, I'm all for inclusion, so I'd have "Shu" refer to the forest barbarians (see the original modules), and "Que" refer to the plains barbarians. The Que-Shu came about when the two peoples merged into a single tribe in Abanisania.
Nerakese [or same ethnicity as Solamnics?] (located in Neraka and perhaps Balifor?)
Istaran [the precursors of the Nerakese?] (located in and around the Blood Sea, perhaps Balifor?)
The Nerekans are definately descendants of the Istarians, and share similiarities of language and writing. I'm not sure where I read that, but I do know I read it somewhere. The residents of Saifum are also descendants of Istar, mixed in with Ergothian mariner settlers.
Abanasinian [or same as Solamnics?] (located in Abanasinia)
I kind of see the Abanisanians as a bit of Creole, with plainsmen, Kharolians, and Solamnics mixed together. In fact, I had suggested that "Abanisanian" was Krynn's common tongue as a result, since we had never seen a language native to that region like we had for Solamnia, Ergoth or Khur. Sovereign Press decided on another explanation for the common tongue, but I do beleive that "Common" is still the only language most residents of Abanisania speak.
Ran-Eli [or are they the same ethnicity as the humans that dominated Istar?] (located in Elian)
The Ran-Eli seem to have been the 5th Age's answer to Asian settings, complete with asian ethnic features. I'm not too keen on that myself, given that I think that nationalities should blend together with their neighbours. Istar is a bit far away for them to be a daughter civilization, but you never know. I think they are probably of the same ethnicity as the humans of the Goodlund penninsula, which brings us to....
The Khotai. They are the humans that were in Goodlund when the A-Bomb that was Malystryx hit. They were originally described by their creator as being affected by the magics of the Desolation, turning them into near giants (though still of the medium size category) with an affinity for fire magic. I don't know if the Khotai are still like that or are being recast as normal humans.
You did get all of the language groups though (with the excpetion of the Kalinese) so I imagine all the nationalities within throse groups are going to be similar (ie. The Franks and the Saxons).
Anyway, I'm going to read the link Jonesy gave me, and giggle in girlish glee. I love the descriptions of the ethnicities especially. Nerekans are curly-haired... who would have thought? I like it!
I've never heard of the Kalinese either, but while I was writing this up I thought "there is a hole in eastern Ansalon where another ethnicity should be. The Kalinese fill this nicely.
Originally posted by ferratus
Wow, that's pretty sweet jonesy. I commend the author for gathering up this information from a wide variety of sources. It will be invaluable to me, and allowed me to remember many things I had forgotten and allowed me to learn a thing or two as well. For example, where did that info come from about the Nordmaarians? It's good, and allows me a good framework on which to build.
Well, I've had the link to Uziel's site in my signature almost as long as the site itself has been online, so it's not really anything new. ;)
If you have questions about the site, the easiest way to reach him is to ask them at the Dragonlance.com boards (because he is a moderator there). I haven't seen him here for a long time.
Originally posted by ferratus
One of the biggest complaints I've heard about Dragonlance as a setting is that all the human lands look exactly the same.
Well, I'm not about to go blaming anybody for this because, in general, I think it really hasn't mattered a whole lot.
Krynn still pretty much is just Ansalon, and not much beyond that. And you have all the different races on Ansalon, so I think that human variety just gets lost in the shuffle for the most part.
Originally posted by ferratus
For example, where did that info come from about the Nordmaarians? It's good, and allows me a good framework on which to build.
That info came from the Tales of the Lance.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Well, I'm not about to go blaming anybody for this because, in general, I think it really hasn't mattered a whole lot.
Krynn still pretty much is just Ansalon, and not much beyond that. And you have all the different races on Ansalon, so I think that human variety just gets lost in the shuffle for the most part.
I'm not sure who thinks all humans on Ansalon are alike, either. I've always thought there was a considerable effort to make them more than just Generic Fantasy White People. You have the nomad peoples, the Khur, the dark-skinned Ergothians, the psuedo-Icelandic/Inuit mix in Icereach, etc.
Ansalon feels more like a melting pot to me, both with humanity and with the non-human races.
Cheers,
Cam
Also, I've made tarsis and the plains of dust look a lot like turkey, both in ethnicity and architecture, which means that the Kharolians look kinda like hitiites.
The Nordmaari, being the closest to the equator and in a jungle area, should look polynesian or Nigerian, perhaps reflecting a relation with the Sea Folk and Ergothian tribes.
And my Khur look Arab/Indian. Mainly Indian, though, because thats the culture i know best, so all my Khurish campaigns reflect that.
What if we equate the Ergothans to Spain under Ferdiannd and Isabella. The "black" Ergothans could be the Krynnish equivalent of Moors. We could then fudge things and have both regular Ergothans (ancestors of the Solamniacs) and the darker-skinned vairety like Maquesta and Rig.
decent?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I'm not sure who thinks all humans on Ansalon are alike, either. I've always thought there was a considerable effort to make them more than just Generic Fantasy White People.
Agreed. But I think it's done in such a way that it doesn't detract from the stories told.
You know there are Not White humans, but it's not the focus, so you perhaps don't think about it, or don't need to.
It just is.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I'm not sure who thinks all humans on Ansalon are alike, either. I've always thought there was a considerable effort to make them more than just Generic Fantasy White People. You have the nomad peoples, the Khur, the dark-skinned Ergothians, the psuedo-Icelandic/Inuit mix in Icereach, etc.
I was suprised too, but I then realized that I own most of the dragonlance products, including most of the novels. There is lots of flavour scattered over all the books, but most are unaccessible to the average gamer. That's why we need a good gazateer.
Ansalon feels more like a melting pot to me, both with humanity and with the non-human races.
That's an attitude that should be encouraged. One of the things that makes Forgotten Realms too painful to make my #1 setting is the fact that they have all these palagerized worldwide earth cultures living beside each other on the same continent. So it looks and feels fake.
Dragonlance is at a crossroads now where we can first expect to have some decent geographical and cultural information about the people within it. However, I hope we just don't go the route the Forgotten Realms did. If we must copy earth cultures, at least make them feel natural within the setting. For example, if you must have the Khur's be pseudo-arabs, at least consider how Nerakan, Ogre, Silvanesti, and Kalinese cultures have influenced them, and vise-versa. So if Khur has onion domes and minarets, maybe Silvanesti or Nereka should too. Khur should probably have alcohol, polytheistic beleifs and ritual worship instead of prayer and study of a particular book and a particularly important prophet.
I say, if we're going to take arab culture as a basis, use the tools and techniques for desert survival, and let the culture develop on its own. Then I won't be shaking my fist in disgust the same way I do about the Mulhorandi still using bronze weapons just because they are "Egyptian". I want my plains barbarians using steel not stone!
Originally posted by talinthas
Actually, it should be the other way around. Dark skinned Ergothians are the royalty and nobility, and the paler folks were subjugated by them, until the Rose Rebellion, when they mostly broke off to form Solamnia.
That is what the 5th Age thought about the matter, but that is not how things were according to "A Warrior's Journey". Paul and Tonya didn't have "Heroes of Defiance" referenced to them, so they didn't know the backstory. A necessary consequence of having basic information scattered over dozens of unrelated products.
In "A Warrior's Journey" both the peasantry and the nobility were white, with the black people being a small settled group of "Sea People" who come from a continent to the North.
In ergoth proper, though, the lower classes are more like Brazil, with a mix of dark, light, and mullatto peoples.
I could certainly see that. I wonder though if perhaps the Southern Ergothians are white, while the black "Sea People" settled more in the North. Imperial Ergoth surivived in the north, but it is not the original ethnicity of the first Ergothians. Just a thought to toss out.
It's already been established in previous source material (notably DL12 and Heroes of Hope) that the Khur are not a monotheistic culture based on Islam. They have their own names for the gods, and are none too surprised when on occasion the gods depart for a while and leave it to the mortals to account for their own affairs. On the other hand, they're very spiritual, passionate and lively people, all traits which I know from experience are stereotypes of nomadic cultures and yet make them remain familiar to my players.
Again, I think people who regard Ansalon's cultures as bland or poorly thought out (whoever they are) just haven't spent long enough looking at the materials in print.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Again, I think people who regard Ansalon's cultures as bland or poorly thought out (whoever they are) just haven't spent long enough looking at the materials in print.
You know what would help this?
Racial books...like what they have for Sovereign Stone. :D
You could have one on the elves. One book for Ogres and their kin. One for humans. Dwarves and their kin. One for lizard folk (natural and unnatural). And maybe even one for Goblin kin.
That'd be nice. Of course the Human one might need to be split up (they had to in the Sovereign Stone books, too).
Originally posted by Brimstone
You could have one on the elves. One book for Ogres and their kin. One for humans. Dwarves and their kin. One for lizard folk (natural and unnatural). And maybe even one for Goblin kin.
And new feats and new prestige classes and new spells and new magic items and new monsters and new templates!
Sounds right up my street, Brim. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Again, I think people who regard Ansalon's cultures as bland or poorly thought out (whoever they are) just haven't spent long enough looking at the materials in print.
Yes, damn them for not obsessively diving through used bins, spending too much on Ebay, and downloading illegal .pdf copies. ;)
Besides, Krynn's cultures are poorly thought out. If they weren't, we wouldn't have everything divided between the Knights of Solamnia and Nereka. We'd have other armies, other groups, other organizations.
As well, even when authors do bother to consider the cultures, they don't do a good cultural writeup. Then when the next person comes along to do a story on the same place, they don't know about it, so they make up something completely different.
Originally posted by Brimstone
You know what would help this?
Racial books...like what they have for Sovereign Stone. :D
You could have one on the elves. One book for Ogres and their kin. One for humans. Dwarves and their kin. One for lizard folk (natural and unnatural). And maybe even one for Goblin kin.
That'd be nice. Of course the Human one might need to be split up (they had to in the Sovereign Stone books, too).
I'd prefer to pay $40 (euros actually) on a thick 320 hardcover that deals with more than one race than several smaller ones. Although SP's racial sourcebooks don't especially suffer from this, other d20 publishers usually fill up their "book of elves" or "book of dwarves" with endless amount of chaff, aparently just to meet the page count budget. It's also harder for DMs to find what they are looking for.
I simply can't understand the rules driven market of D&D. Why buy books you simply never use more than a page out of?
Originally posted by jonesy
http://www.dreadgazebo.com/astinus/humans.html
Thanks for pointing that out Jonesy, it's a pretty sweet-looking site.
Karnuthians: It's been awhile, but it looks as if this is the ethnicity to which the infamous werepanther-ish sell-sword of Dark Heart belongs. Right?
Ran-Eli: I also initially thought of the Ran-Eli as being somewhat Asian-like. However, I reread the only information I have about them (Odyssey of Gilthanas), and there were no overt physical descriptions of the people. All I really got out of the depicted information is that they are a heavily patriarchal and rather isolationist warrior society, and the name of one Ran-Eli: Solov.
I agree that there is a surprising lack of information about the various human cultures of Ansalon. I think we've all got a good grasp on Solamnic culture, and perhaps even that of the Plainsfolk. What about the Nordmaarans? Kalinese? Ran-Eli? the other dozen plus cultures out there? As an analogy, we've got a veritable six-course meal on the culture of Solamnics but receive only appetizers (or at best, free samples akin to those received at grocery stores) for all the rest. The irritable part about the few appetizers we do get about the non-Solamnic cultures is that they are spread out across 3 editions and two dozen products of Dragonlance gaming.
I'd love tons of culture-specific feats and prestige classes ... but I'd settle for just tons of cultural information in one or a few convenient books. ;)
It would make more sense for the darker skinned to be northerners and the lighter skinned southerners, as Ansalon is in the southern hemisphere, and Icewall (cold) is in the south while Karthay (tropical) is in the north.
Originally posted by QuentinGeorge
It would make more sense for the darker skinned to be northerners and the lighter skinned southerners, as Ansalon is in the southern hemisphere, and Icewall (cold) is in the south while Karthay (tropical) is in the north.
Well that's how it is. What's your point?
Originally posted by ferratus
I say, if we're going to take arab culture as a basis, use the tools and techniques for desert survival, and let the culture develop on its own. Then I won't be shaking my fist in disgust the same way I do about the Mulhorandi still using bronze weapons just because they are "Egyptian". I want my plains barbarians using steel not stone!
Speaking of silliness.
Better not look at the Schallsea description in the DLCS. It specifically states that the Que-Nal have no metal.
Originally posted by Halabis
Well, thats probably becuase they live on an island without any sources of metal. When theres no metal, its kinda hard to make metal weapons.
Where'd you get that idea from? Where does it say that there are no sources of metal on the island?
Even assuming there were no sources of metal on the island, there have been Solamnics and Abanasinians on the island for decades and those two groups both possess metal. In all those decades the Que-Nal have deigned not to trade for metal at all?
Let's say the Que-Nal hate the Solamnics and Abanasinians on the island. The Que-Nal are described as superb sailors. Every land bordering the New Sea has access to metal or metal weapons in one form or another. Did the Que-Nal not trade with any of them to acquire metal?
The only way it'd make some sense is if the Que-Nal had some sort of religious/cultural aversion to metal. But I've not seen anything anywhere to indicate that. The Que-Nals' Plainsmen cousins on the mainland make use of metal all the time, why not the Que-Nal, who are merely a splinter group of Plainsmen?
EDIT: Just saw the reference in the SAGA product Citadel of Light and the mining of all the ore in the hills as an explanation for why the Que-Nal use no metal. Still, Abanasinia is a mere 25 miles across the water to the west and the Que-Nal are superb sailors. Did none of the Que-Nal desire to trade for metal among the comparatively metal-rich peoples of the mainland?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
And new feats and new prestige classes and new spells and new magic items and new monsters and new templates!
Amen, brotha!
Originally posted by Richard Connery
I'd prefer to pay $40 (euros actually) on a thick 320 hardcover that deals with more than one race than several smaller ones. Although SP's racial sourcebooks don't especially suffer from this
True. I guess if given the choice, I'd prefer one full book with everything in it.
The only thing...because the SS ones are so good...it is kind of nice to have one book that is nothing but dedicated to one specific race and it's sub-races. Each author focuses on just one thing.
I don't know...I suppose it doens't matter to much which form they use (so long as if it's hard back...they stick with the stitching, and not glue).
(although you're probably right...a single book would probably be cheaper in the long run)
In any case, it is something I'm just going to ignore. Of course they have steel. Now, of course, the typical plainsmen doesn't have as much steel on them as a Solamnic Knight for some very simple reasons. Plains and desert are not good places to find iron ore. So any iron tools they make themselves will be found from smelting a few stones they find.
Otherwise they have to rely on trade. However, since they are just pastoral semi-nomads, all they've got to trade is meat from their herd animals and cereal crops. So they've got metal for weapons and a few basic tools. For armour, they have leather and hide, with wooden shields. Which fits what the barbarian class is allowed to wear for armor extremely well. ;)
If you follow what the local terrain provides, the events of history, and the needs of the inhabitants, you'll be amazed at how well it fits together. If you just borrow cultures (the stereotypes of those cultures to boot) from earth, you'll be amazed at how many problems pop up.
Anyways, on a somewhat related note ...
I've just been looking through my copy of Book of Exalted Deedsand discovered the perfect prestige class for the Wemitowuk, the extreme pacifists. The Apostle of Peace prestige class fits in perfectly with the Wemitowuk non-violence creed.
Originally posted by iltharanos
I thought it was funny how the DLCS said the Que-Nal didn't need metal because of their secret of tanning hides. Huh? Do these hides have some sort of natural enhancement bonus? Grant damage reduction? They make good spear-heads?
Well, I beleive the thinking is "I don't want them to use metal weapons, because I want them to resemble the natives of North America before extensive European colonization... what excuse can I use". The excuse is always going to come up short when you approach the problem from that angle. (Plus, natives of North America have as many cultural differences as the inhabitants of Eurasia, thank you very much.)
Instead you should say "I want to put a barbaric people there, and given their neighbours and the resources they have access to, what will they look like?". At the very least you should say "I want this culture to resemble culture X, but what would look like given the resources they have access to and the cultures around them?" Then change it accordingly.