Takhasis always is expending her efforts towards the races of man and to some extent her own people but rarely bothers with dragons save on term of slaves (I was shocked when she actually bothered talking to skie!)
Paladine though seems to take for granted draconic devotion and there's no explanation how they regarded the Cataclysm or the gods disspearence (HALF of their race dying and all that....)
He falls over backwards for mortals but when Tiamat and he both lose their divinity, not a word is spent for them in the Appendix really as to what their goals for the dragon race are or if they are failed.
From the birth of the first dragons to the war of Huma the dragons were the primary instrument used by the gods in their wars.
From the war of Huma to the War of the Lance they weren't around because of the deal struck by Takhisis, not because of neglect.
From the War of the Lance to the Chaos War they were again a heavily used force.
From the Chaos War to the War of Souls the gods neglected the entire world, not just dragons.
During the War of Souls Takhisis did most of the damage with the souls (and the rest of the gods weren't around until the end), and most of the dragons were either working for, or hiding from, the overlords.
Neglect doesn't even enter the equation.
Plus also how the gods bend over backwards for mortals yet we don't see any effort expended for the dragons loyalty
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I guess I'd like to know how the DRAGONS have reacted to the abandonment and Cataclysm (being turned to stone is not a way to reward a faithful follower)
Well, Khisant took it pretty well. For her it was just a long nap. Immolatus was roally angry at Takhisis. I think the major issue for the chromatics was losing to Huma, not having to go into hiding.
Pretty much all of the metallics that have been shown in the context were either just happy that their absence resulted in the absence of Takhisis, or too busy with their eggs having been stolen to consider it.
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Plus also how the gods bend over backwards for mortals yet we don't see any effort expended for the dragons loyalty
That would be mostly because very few of the dragons in the stories have been shown contemplating the matter. I do remember Pyros bargaining with Takhisis at some point, and it took a lot more than the word of Takhisis to convince Immolatus.
Apart from the metallics 'stolen eggs episode', they have been very well treated, and probably would follow Paladine blindly into anywhere. Plus most of them seem to view him as a close personal friend.
I don't imagine the Chromatics having problems. They seemed to be universally brassed off at the Dark Queen by the end of the WoS. The Reds and Blues will convert to Sargonnas with little difficulty. The Greens will follow Hiddukel. Blacks will go to Morgion. Whites... hmm... Zeboim, probably. More mystically inclined dragons will turn to Nuitari, and those dragons deathly afraid of... death, will take up with Chemosh, and who knows? Maybe the first Krynnish Dracoliches will be born.
I don't foresee the Metallics having problems either. Speaking very broadly, the Golds will favour Majere, the Silvers Mishakal, the Bronzes Habbakuk, the Brasses Branchala, and the Coppers... they are a toughie... they might go with Branchala too, but some of the greedier might just take up with Shinare. The more warlike dragons will follow Kiri-Jolith, and the more mystically inclined will follow Solinari.
That's just my opinion. I could be wrong. And this is not to say that adjustment periods won't be needed on all sides. Takhisis gave her children freer rein than Sargonnas is likely to, and no God of Light is quite like Paladine in any respect.
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Plus also how the gods bend over backwards for mortals...
where did you get that idea from? I can't recall any moments when the gods would have given anything on a silver platter to anyone. Their subjects have always had to prove themselves first.
I always viewed it that the Chromatic and Metallic Dragons effectiely "cancel each other out", as interference by one will usually be countered by the other force, so they are effectively at a stalemate, hense the real future of Kyrnn is decided by the Mortals, who have greater tendencies to be influenced. The same applies to the fact that the Gods can count on their Dragons to support them (at least against their opposing panethon) I can't ever recall a case of Takhisis corrupting a Metallic Dragon (bar perhaps the orgional 5 in some of the old creations stories), or Paladine convicing a Chromatic to join the forces of Good.
I also get the feeling that the Dragons are really the most (spiritually and physically) developed of races, and closest to the Gods (hence their resistance to being converted to the otherside). Hence they need, and demand less attention from their Gods.
Throughout the Chronicles it was clear that contrary to usual apperences, Takhisis did communicate more directly with the Dragons than the Dragon Highlords (and only the dragons were informed about Berem)
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Not THE Cataclysm, the cataclysm of the Dragon Purge following the second Cataclysm
Where, specifically, did it say that half the dragons of Krynn were wiped out in the dragon purge? I don't recall having ever seen any specific numbers about the dragon casualties in the purge.
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The back of the Age of Mortals in the section with Mirror, Onyx, and the rest of those whacky huge beasts.
Ahh, I see what you're talking about. The part about "scholars estimating" and all. The interesting thing is whether this figure can be applied to the dragons of Krynn or merely to the dragons of Ansalon , seeing as how the campaign is very Ansalon-centric.
Originally posted by jonesy
Apart from the metallics 'stolen eggs episode', they have been very well treated, and probably would follow Paladine blindly into anywhere. Plus most of them seem to view him as a close personal friend.
Speaking of which, I pity the poor fool that tries to kill Paladine now that he is mortal.
Evil Fool: There you are, Paladine, today I kill a [former] god*!
(a quarter of Paladine's followers polymorph back into their natural dragon form)
Evil Fool: Eep.
-Drachasor
*Or he could call him the "Mortal formerly known as Paladine", if you prefer.
Originally posted by Wizardman
I don't imagine the Chromatics having problems. They seemed to be universally brassed off at the Dark Queen by the end of the WoS. The Reds and Blues will convert to Sargonnas with little difficulty. The Greens will follow Hiddukel. Blacks will go to Morgion. Whites... hmm... Zeboim, probably. More mystically inclined dragons will turn to Nuitari, and those dragons deathly afraid of... death, will take up with Chemosh, and who knows? Maybe the first Krynnish Dracoliches will be born.
I don't foresee the Metallics having problems either. Speaking very broadly, the Golds will favour Majere, the Silvers Mishakal, the Bronzes Habbakuk, the Brasses Branchala, and the Coppers... they are a toughie... they might go with Branchala too, but some of the greedier might just take up with Shinare. The more warlike dragons will follow Kiri-Jolith, and the more mystically inclined will follow Solinari.
Actually, they sorta deal with this in the Appendix at the end of Vanished Moon.
Okay, let's start with Metallics:
Gold dragons' contemplative nature makes them often followers of Majere, according to the book. Silver dragons and their compassion for life and such often allies them with Mishakal. Bronze dragons, being more martially minded than most, follow Kiri-Jolith(actually, the book says Copper dragons, but I think it was a misprint, as bronzes not only are more warlike than coppers, but they're also LG like Kiri-Jolith, unlike coppers which are CG). Now, I don't remember the others, but I think it may be brass dragons going with Branchala, as they sorta have a bard-thing going on there, and coppers with Habbakuk, as they are associated with the sea. I htink the Appendix has brasses with Habbakuk, but I think this this works better.
Alright, now the Chromatics:
Blues would be assossiated with Sargonnas, what with their warlike tendancies. That's the only ones I remember, but I think Black went with Morgion, Whites with Chemosh, and I think Greens went with Hiddukel. But that doesn't make too much sense, as that has Reds going with Zeboim...
Alignment plays a large part in this, too. Bronze dragons are the most likely metallics to be found in and near the sea, yet they are lawful good. Habbakuk, the deity in the pantheon of Light most associated with the ocean, is neutral good. Now granted, the only dragon alignments are lawful good, chaotic good, lawful evil and chaotic evil (at least out of the 10 true dragons), but it does end up becoming rather forced.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
...and coppers with Habbakuk, as they are associated with the sea.
Coppers are earth dragons. It's the bronze ones that are associated with the sea.
Originally posted by HiddenValor
Man been along time since i've been here.Anyway if I remember correctly there were a number of dragons, all chromatic, that didn't follow any gods.I think they disagreed with the gods they followed and left them,most then moved to little populated places on Kyrnn.This is all just something I think I remember or just came up with the idea while reading DL.
That's from Taladas, I believe. They were cursed in some way...but I don't remember how. They were dragons of both colors that chose to stay out of the War of the Lance. They all tend to have neutral alignments. In fact, they are the only dragon you might find on Krynn with a neutral alignment.
-Drachasor
Originally posted by talinthas
they were called ortholox, and they were on taladas, and ignored the dark queen's call. Time of the Dragon box =)
Don't you mean, Othlorx? ;)
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Coppers are earth dragons. It's the bronze ones that are associated with the sea.
Oh. Sorry. May I ask why? They're got that whole lightning-thing going on, which is more like air, and the coppers have acid, which is water.
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
Oh. Sorry. May I ask why? They're got that whole lightning-thing going on, which is more like air, and the coppers have acid, which is water.
Bronze dragons have always been described as coastal-dwelling dragons, ever since 1st edition AD&D's Monster Manual. In 3rd edition, they have the Water subtype. Copper dragons, which dwell in warmer hilly environments, have the Earth subtype. Contrast this with the chromatic dragons which share their breath weapons - blue dragons are Earth, and black dragons are Water. Clearly, it doesn't have a lot to do with their breath weapons as much as it does their chosen environment.
Cheers,
Cam
If you were a Dragon of Light, and you were forced into making the Oath not to intercede in the War of the Lance, and then found out what happened to your egg's in being turned into Draconians, I cannot imagine EVER making any compromise ever again with the gods of darkness ever again.
Yet by the time the SUMMER OF CHAOS had arrived, they wanted Paladine to just give up the world befoe Chaos arrived. At a minimum, they should have demanded the eggs of the Chromatic Dragons. At the worst, Paladine should have reminded the other gods what Takhisis did to the eggs of the good dragons as the reason why he would NEVER consider any form of deal with Takhisis ever again.
I wouldn't worship a god that threw a flaming mountain on me, thereby releasing Takhisis.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
At a minimum, they should have demanded the eggs of the Chromatic Dragons.
The thing is, that's something the EVIL dragons would do. The metallics would never lower themselves to the level of the chromatics.
Lina Inverse, Red Dragon!
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
They could raise them as sweet and bubbly Chromatics!
Lina Inverse, Red Dragon!
Actually, that would explain a lot ! :D
Maybe they wouldn't have actually done it, but you can be sure that there was temptation to do just that. I always thought that it was absurd that Takhisis would be making demands in the face of Chaos- although, in light of the truth of the AoM, it does make a twisted form of sense. But I digress. Good is capable of the same acts as evil. Look at the Kingpriest! We are (I think almost) all agreed that he was a good man, but many of the things he did were evil. The Edict of Thought Control, and its implications, would have done the Queen of Darkness proud- and helped contribute to her partial release. These are dragons, not celestials, and certainly not saints. Maybe the gods wouldn't have been tempted, but the dragons lost most if not all of an entire generation to evil. They would have been tempted- or else
that Paladine gave in without demanding insurance. They will go along with the gods, but they are not blind slaves.Regarding my comments about Lina Inverse? I'm holding up a ring of spell absorption +100. Just in case :D
Originally posted by Wizardman
Look at the Kingpriest! We are (I think almost) all agreed that he was a good man, but many of the things he did were evil.
The Kingpriest was an evil, evil man whom people (himself included) thought to be good.
If good creatures were willing to do the same stuff as evil creatures, then how on Krynn would they be good?
The corruption that brewed and thrived under his reign however was what really killed the land. Basically the King Priest didn't create understanding good...he created arrogant self-satisfied good that would soon collapse on itself (And did)
After all Lord Soth was the greatest of the Knights but he was obssessed with appearences over his true heart.
I wonder personally if anything about "The Dark Queen" novel should be taken, I can only justify its mockery of the King Priest story as a previous Kingpriest of Ishtar
I think the story was well told, though not completely fitting with other events. But wasn't Fistandalus in the book?
I actually want to know what people's take on these events are in light of the "Reign of Ishtar" trilogy with the near overthrow of the Barbarians, the Kingpriest and Takhasis, and the illegitamate kid of him
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Fistdanalius wasn't in the book.
I actually want to know what people's take on these events are in light of the "Reign of Ishtar" trilogy with the near overthrow of the Barbarians, the Kingpriest and Takhasis, and the illegitamate kid of him
Whoa. I don't remember any of that. I'm going to have to reread Dark Queen now.
Originally posted by Wizardman
Good is capable of the same acts as evil. Look at the Kingpriest! We are (I think almost) all agreed that he was a good man, but many of the things he did were evil.
Good people don't need fiery mountains dropped on their heads to convince them that they're wrong. :-)
Of course, in DL, "Good" often means "arrogant, self-righteous, exclusivist, xenophobic, and generally idiotic", while "Evil" means "mean, cruel, and megalomaniacal, but really really cool".
Matthew L. Martin, Embittered Dragonlance Fan
Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin
Good people don't need fiery mountains dropped on their heads to convince them that they're wrong. :-)
Sometimes they do. ;)
See I like how Chris Pierson handled the Kingpriest. In the hands of another author it would have been disastrous, but Chris understood that being "good" and being "correct" are not always the same. Beldyn was compassionate, without malice, and greatly desired to help. What he lacked however was the understanding that the greater good does not justify or buy you forgiveness for the destruction of the lesser good. That was the whole point (I believe) of why Paladine wouldn't and couldn't grant him absolution in the end.
Of course, in DL, "Good" often means "arrogant, self-righteous, exclusivist, xenophobic, and generally idiotic", while "Evil" means "mean, cruel, and megalomaniacal, but really really cool".
Self-righteousness stems from the desire to be righteous. Thus, I don't think it is a bad thing to have a story plot point, since arrogance, xenophobia, and close-minded personalities can flow from that.
However, it has gone beyond that now. Solamnic Knights aren't even considered good anymore. Elves are not considered to be good anymore. They have become parodies of themselves, with no sense of virtue or goodness shining through. Nobody respects the Solamnic Knights anymore, which is a terrible shame.
And Also Knights of Nekara all need to be made better by the god's return
I don't know how it'll happen with the Knights but I liked evil that didn't turn on itself