So what do people think: good idea, bad idea or already delt with (and if it is could you point it out to me, since Epic levels are beconing)
Dragons & Avangions
Dragon Magic
Champions of Rajaat
Now, those threads have links to my site, which cover the different parts I've completed currently. Here's some direct links to each page:
Dragon Metamorphosis (Overview) - Brief information about the Dragon Metamorphosis, as well as tables necessary for the overall metamorphosis stages.
Stage 1 - The first stage of development, built from the first 3 levels of the 2nd Edition rules for Dragons, includes an epic spell, a template and a 10-level epic prestige class.
Stage 2 - The second stage of development, built from levels 4 - 6 of the 2nd Edition rules for Dragons, includes an epic spell, a template and a 10-level epic prestige class.
Stage 3 - The third stage of development, built from levels 7 - 9 of the 2nd Edition rules for Dragons, includes an epic spell, a template and a 10-level epic prestige class.
Stage 4 - The final stage of development, built from level 10 of the 2nd Edition rules for Dragons, includes an epic spell and a template.
Items - Items that are important to Dragons and their metamorphosis.
Magic - Dragon Magic rules.
Champions of Rajaat - My template for the Champions of Rajaat, which are better known as the Sorcerer-Monarchs.
I am currently developing the Avangion rules, then will branch out to other Advanced Beings, like Elementals and Spirits of the Land.
i.e. after taking Epic Spellcasting and Epic Manifestation feats, would they affect psionic enchantments?
Why make (what was in 2e) a 10-level metamorphis and progression into 3 or four 10-level prestige classes? why make 10 levels into 40?
I'm a big believer in keeping things as much in 'flavour' with the orignal, most of my previous critisms of DS3.0 have been based on this.
Personally, i think dragons are petty easy to do. 10-level Prestige class with size increases (confering bonues to STR and CON along the way) with a couple of bonues to INT and WIS, acess to epic spells and feats and VOILA! something similar to the 2e flavour. My own personal version works on a "typical" mage (one with the minium qualifying stats) turing out to be physically similar to a Wyrm Red Dragon, but with a little more *magic* (due to levels as a spell caster)
Just my opinion, don't want to dapen anyones enthusiasm, but making each stage of four 'distinct' phases of metamorphis into a 10-level prestige classes is... not darksun INMHO
Originally posted by Jaanos
I've read the proposed dragon documents... and .... i'm not a fan. Not a personal critism, alot of thought has gone into it, my question is this:
No problem, I understand some people just don't like my idea. But I'll try to answer your questions the best that I can.
Why make (what was in 2e) a 10-level metamorphis and progression into 3 or four 10-level prestige classes? why make 10 levels into 40?
It was simple, actually. I had always felt that 10 levels wasn't enough for the Dragons. I mean, if you follow the timeline, these are creatures that have been around for millenia. I decided to make the gamesystem process actually reflect the length of time it takes to become a Dragon. Further, in 3e (and 3.5e), it is a bad thing to require a specific number of levels in a specific class. As such, I rewrote it where actually, while the Dragon would still be an epic character, the dragon doesn't need to be level 40 when he starts the progression. Actually, a Dragon could start at around level 26, if he focuses on it, in my write-up. So, While I added some levels on one end, I technically removed some levels from the requirements, meaning that instead of being level 50 when the character completes the Dragon process, it's possible for a Defiler/Psion to reach the final stage at level 56 (Psion 8 + Wizard 18 + 10 Dragon Stage-1 + 10 Dragon Stage-2 + 10 Dragon Stage-3). Even shorter if the optional rules for "accelerated" development are taken into account (theoretically, a Dragon could be forced through all 4 stages of the spell at once, meaning it would be level 26, and extremely underdeveloped).
The reason I had made the psionic and magical requirements different started when I was working on the initial conversion of the prerequisites. In stead of level 20 Psionicist/level 20 Defiler, I converted it to "Able to cast 9th level Arcane Spells", and "Able to manifest 9th level Powers". The problem with this is.... in the scope of an epic character, doing such a thing actually cripples the character, and forces them to develop 2 classes individually that limits his overal capability with both. His spellcaster level/manifester level would basically be about 1/2 of his character level, and a character 10 levels lower than his total character level, but had focused on Wizard instead of splitting the two, would be too powerful for the multi-classed character to have a chance of even fighting him (this is from playtesting experience. A level 30 Wizard > a level 20 Wizard/20 Psion. The former will defeat the latter with ease in almost everything he does, even with the "Psionics are Different" rules).
So, I decided I was going to lower one of the two requirements - I wasn't going to totally remove either the spells or the psionics, because they both are intregal to the concept of the Athasian Dragon. I looked at the words "Psionic Enchantments", as well as had found (somewhere) that they were "Magic enhanced by Psionics", which gave me the impression that Magic was the greater of the two, and Psionics were the lesser. So, I then deduced that I was going to reduce the Psionic requirement, as psionics are the lesser of the two parts. I was trying to decide how low to make it, when I was looking through the Psionics Handbook, and it lept from the page I was open to: Level 6. Why did I make it level 6? Because there was a class that existed in 3e that didn't have an equivalent in 2e - the Psychic Warrior. I felt that there was no real reason do exclude a Psychic Warrior from becoming a Dragon (in fact, I found that allowing it makes a couple of the Sorcerer-Monarchs make more sense)., and the Psychic Warrior's maximum power level is 6 (Which they start to get at about level... 18 if I remember correctly). So, I made it "Able to maifest 6th Level Powers" instead.
This means that a Wizard/Psion combo could start the Dragon metamorphosis at level 26 (potentially), while a Wizard/Psychic Warrior is closer to level 36. *Both* of those are lower than the level 40 requirement "as written" in 2e.
There were these, and several other reasons (of which I can't remember) that I made it a lengthy progression.
I'm a big believer in keeping things as much in 'flavour' with the orignal, most of my previous critisms of DS3.0 have been based on this.
Flavor, yes. The mechanics for the process however, I redesigned. I tried to stick closer to how a Dragon is depicted (including the Sorcerer-Monarchs) in the flavor text, and did a total rebuild on the game mechanics. Further, I opened it up to being able to be used by other races, and it reflects how those different races would affect the end result.
Personally, i think dragons are petty easy to do. 10-level Prestige class with size increases (confering bonues to STR and CON along the way) with a couple of bonues to INT and WIS, acess to epic spells and feats and VOILA! something similar to the 2e flavour. My own personal version works on a "typical" mage (one with the minium qualifying stats) turing out to be physically similar to a Wyrm Red Dragon, but with a little more *magic* (due to levels as a spell caster)
If that works for you, then great. Personally, I see them as being a bit more than a Wyrm Red Dragon, I see them as becoming Epic Dragons. But this layout I made is my own take on it, it isn't the official take on it. As I said, some people like my idea, some don't.
While I use an Epic Spell in my designs, I don't find the Epic Spellcasting Feat to be worth while, the way Epic Spells are currently written in the ELH. And it's not just me, I ran a campaign with no less than 4 wizards in it, and they had reached level 34-36. They all tried to find a reason or way to use Epic Spellcasting, but eventually had begged me to let them switch out the feat to something useful, as Epic spells are either far less effective than the normal counterparts, or have too much of a cost to make them worthwhile. My Epic spells for my metamorphosis don't follow the Epic Spellcasting guidelines found in the ELH, rather I guessed at how much I thought they would cost, and came up with what they did.
As I posted above - I'm keeping the Dark Sun "feel" and "flavor", but I'm not using the rules that they presented.
Just my opinion, don't want to dapen anyones enthusiasm, but making each stage of four 'distinct' phases of metamorphis into a 10-level prestige classes is... not darksun INMHO
Well, it is IMHO, more Dark Sun than the 2e rules that were made for Dragons. I mean, the Dragon rules for 2e have them jumping into and out of the outer & transitive planes, which *really* made no sense. Plus, there was a spell that needed to be cast for *each* level, in order to advance into that level, which totally goes against the grain of the 3e rules, and didn't make sense to me when looking at the Sorcerer-Monarchs.
The dragon Metamorphosis for Dark Sun to me is greater and more potent than any single "transformational" Prestige Class that has been developed for 3e.
Whilst i admire your thought train, and logic, i simply don't agree with your take on it. I agree with the concept of psi-warriors being able to take levels as a dragon, but they should be epic psi-warriors who have learnt to manifest 9th level powers.
I think a simple requirement for the class is knowledge arcana / psionics = 20th level character max (ie 24 ranks or so).
The fundamental problem i have with your system is that it moves away from the whole idea of what these creatures were on Darksun:
The most powerful mages and mind-benders on athas.
i.e; max levels in both before moving onto 2e version of a prestige class.
Now you are proposing that mages who HAVEN'T reached thier maximum 'normal' potential (ie, 20th level) can become these beings.... it just doesn't fit with Darksun, so i'm afraid it isn't 'more darksun' than 2e.
Having said all that, it is well thought out and you should be commended for the effort. I'll be (with your permission of course) using it's concepts in a home-brew campain world, loosely based off darksun, but at this stage, it's too far removed from 2e darksun for me to even consider it in a formal darksun 3e campain.
As i said before, it should be a 20/20 + 10 system. Maybe we loosen the rules to allow people with other levels (i.e 5th level fighter, 20 mage/20 psion /10 dragon) into the mix... but not loosend to the extent you propose.
Just my thoughts, as i said, i follow you logic, but i believe it to be incorrect.
Cheers
Getting to 40 levels in 2e took alot of time. Lots of XP.
And in 2e what made the SKs powerful was their combined levels and the powers confered by the transformation.
Now in 3e their power comes from the Champion template, and a immortal lifetime (1000+yrs) amassing XPs and getting levels, all elements unrelated to being a dragon.
A dragon that's not a SK can now be killed by the Order.
A wizard with more levels could possibly beat him.
The only advantage the dragon has over others is:
- immortality (long time to hamass that XP)
- dragon magic (way beyond metamagic)
- psionic enchantments (virtually impossible to resist your magic)
They are only tools that, if used well, will make you one day unbeatable.
The 2e character was already unbeatable before he become a dragon. Now he has to earn it. And now has tools that put him at the front of the run...
The transformation should take time: now its 30 levels long.
That will occupy you for centuries to come.
-wooo...ramblings-
Originally posted by Jaanos
Well, i disagree. The dragons jumping in and out of the elemental and outplanes to futher thier transformation made perfect sense to me: the elements are kings of athas (no gods) and only the powers present on the outplanes can assist the creatures essentially gaining divine rank 0.
Well, as the only known individual who has travelled the outer planes is Dregoth (and he so very much covets his precious portal), with all other access to the outer planes (or the "noram" transitives like the Astral Plane) are blocked on Athas, IMHO I don't see your interpretation meshing with Athas. I also totally oppose the concept that they even get a Divine Rank of 0 - that, in and of itself, makes them gods, and they aren't gods. The Sorcerer-Monarchs were given special advantages that other Dragons don't have (like providing spells to Templars), but they aren't gods.
Whilst i admire your thought train, and logic, i simply don't agree with your take on it. I agree with the concept of psi-warriors being able to take levels as a dragon, but they should be epic psi-warriors who have learnt to manifest 9th level powers.
With the exception that according to 3e/3.5e rules, it is impossible for an Epic Psychic Warrior to be able to manifest 9th level powers. Once a character has developed his power points/day & powers known as a 20th level manifester (Psy War + any PrC's that advance these), he stops increasing. Further, Epic Manifesting (the Psionic equivalent to Epic Spellcasting) is unattainable by a Psychic Warrior. The only way a Psychic Warrior could manifest 9th level powers is if he develops as a Psion.
I think a simple requirement for the class is knowledge arcana / psionics = 20th level character max (ie 24 ranks or so).
You could do that, and actually I do have a requirement of Knowledge (Arcana) 24 (which means the character is at least 21st level) and Knowledge (Psionics) 12 (which means the character is at least 9th level).
The fundamental problem i have with your system is that it moves away from the whole idea of what these creatures were on Darksun:
The most powerful mages and mind-benders on athas.
And they are. The Dragons, as I have written them *are* the most powerful mages, and they can do things with their spells & powers that no other psionic (or arcane) character can do.
i.e; max levels in both before moving onto 2e version of a prestige class.
Whic totally goes against the grain of 3e/3.5e. Forcing someone to be a specific class for a specific number of levels doesn't fit with 3e/3.5e at all. Show me a single Prestige Class that has a requirement of a specific class at a specific level, that has been designed by WotC - for any of their d20 system games. You won't find it - one of the main ideas behind this is by not including that requirement, it gives the player more freedom to design their character the way they want to. Without specific class restrictions, a character could take levels of "Necromant", "Cerulean Mage", or "Black Mage" and still become a Dragon.
Now you are proposing that mages who HAVEN'T reached thier maximum 'normal' potential (ie, 20th level) can become these beings.... it just doesn't fit with Darksun, so i'm afraid it isn't 'more darksun' than 2e.
That's right. A level 18 Wizard could try. Of course, he would have had to spend some extra skill points in Knowledge (arcane) as a Psionic class (IE: cross-class skill), and he could try to become one. He'd also find it harder to survive the process of the metamorphosis. If you look, he also keeps advancing in spells per day (and spells known if you include sorcerers, which I don't, but left it open for those who do) & power points per day/powers discovered that the dragon already has (much like other Prestige Classes found anywhere). So, while at the beginning of the process, a Dragon might cast spells like a level 18 wizard, in a mere... 2 levels, he now casts as a level 20 wizard. Further, while a Dragon might start with only 8 levels in Psion, with 12 dragon levels (10 Stage-1 + 2 Stage-2) he now has the power points & powers discovered as if he was level 20 (he'd also be the equivalent of a level 30 Wizard).
Having said all that, it is well thought out and you should be commended for the effort. I'll be (with your permission of course) using it's concepts in a home-brew campain world, loosely based off darksun, but at this stage, it's too far removed from 2e darksun for me to even consider it in a formal darksun 3e campain.
No problem, even if we are at odds about if it fits Dark Sun or not - everyone can't agree on everything
.As i said before, it should be a 20/20 + 10 system. Maybe we loosen the rules to allow people with other levels (i.e 5th level fighter, 20 mage/20 psion /10 dragon) into the mix... but not loosend to the extent you propose.
Even if the 20/20 + 10 system totally goes against the grain of the 3e/3.5e mechanics? My design, while slightly longer than the original (6 more required levels is a little more than a 10% increase), fits with the 3e/3.5e rules, fits the flavor text about Dragons from Dark Sun, and seems to make more sense (IMHO) to the whole design.
Just my thoughts, as i said, i follow you logic, but i believe it to be incorrect.
Cheers
Well, as I've said before - it's a pretty radical system, and some people (like yourself) won't agree with me. So far, with the minimal playtesting I've done (write-up 2 characters, one of which is a Dragon, and run some scenarios pitting them against each other), it tends to work.
The only problem is that I think players would still be attracted to playing a Dragon over a "regular" character, as the Dragon is pretty cool. I've been thinking of putting in an EL of +1/+2/+3/+4 for the Stages 1/2/3/4 templates respectively. (which means that a Stage-1 Dragon has an EL of +1, while a Stage-3 Dragon has an EL of +6 (+1 for Stage-1, +2 for Stage-2 and +3 for Stage-3). I have found that ELs are probably the single-most frustrating penalty a player could have to take in 3e (according to a poll I made for d20 and had several players fill out at a local gaming store).
Originally posted by Mach2.5
You can solve this simple dilema by limiting the advancement requirements. Not simply based on experience points and 'leveling up' one's crit, but by finding and or creating the next stage for the metamorphosis proccess. This allows the DM to simulate the time frame for the advancement based upon his or her own campaign needs. Should the DM not care how quickly his players advance to dragonhood, he can make the process reletively quick. If he wants to simulate the frustrating difficulties that the SKs have experienced over a few thousand years, he can do that as well. Granted, it puts the player's advancement 100% in the hands of the GM, but lets face it, if your a player and have been gaming with the same DM for 20+ levels, that probably isn't going to become an issue.
True, but last I checked, for the d20 system, there is no other class which has a per-level prerequisite development process. Something like that would fall into the area of pure spells/templates, and discarding a prestige class, which I'm not completely against, but it would most likely change the dragon even further than I have done. My method may not be entirely accepted by everyone, but it is my sort of "alternative" for the dragon process. It makes them seem far more impressive, makes the process larger and something greater than a simple "Dragon Disciple" (which ironically, probably originated based off of the 2e Dragon rules) or "Mystic Theurge" mock-up. I felt it should be a great undertaking, something that tasks the individual significantly through the process, and then in the end, reaps the rewards.
Bear in mind, my Avangion, Elemental and Spirit of the Land writeups are similar (Well, I have the Avangion basically done, but not the other two). To me, Advanced Beings mean Advanced Beings. My players *love* the concept, and they wish I was starting up a new Dark Sun campaign so that they could try out the overall process.
True, but last I checked, for the d20 system, there is no other class which has a per-level prerequisite development process.
Ummm . . . and this limits you in what way? Sorry, but I'm not a big fan of following precedence simply for the sake of, well, following precedence.
or "Mystic Theurge" mock-up
Not to really rip on anyone, but this whole idea makes me want to stab someone in the face. And that's being nice.
Something like that would fall into the area of pure spells/templates, and discarding a prestige class,
Errr . . . I never thought of doing this. Not once. I feel dumb. Very dumb. I'm going to go and stab myself in the face now.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Ummm . . . and this limits you in what way? Sorry, but I'm not a big fan of following precedence simply for the sake of, well, following precedence.
Well, I have found that following precedence in these things helps tremendously when it comes to playtesting. If something's been done before. tested and considered "balanced", and you use that same overall pattern/design, logic would dictate that you could make something balanced as well, without needing as extensive of playtesting. While I do tread new waters frequently, it' usually after I've ran through the pre-existing ideas, and figure it out while hopefully already learning from their mistakes without repeating them.
Not to really rip on anyone, but this whole idea makes me want to stab someone in the face. And that's being nice.
I'm no fan of the Mystic Theurge myself.
Errr . . . I never thought of doing this. Not once. I feel dumb. Very dumb. I'm going to go and stab myself in the face now.
Actually, it was the direction I was originally going to take this, but I instead took it another direction all together. I might have even built it as "prestige templates" or whatever nonsense, if I knew how they worked, instead I just built it as 4 spells, 4 templates and 3 prestige classes. I didn't originally have the prestige classes all be 10 levels, however a rather compelling arguement from my players, as well as some people on this board, changed my original concept and I rebuilt them as 10 levels each.
Divine rank 0 is more like:
"i'm immortal and hella powerful, be warned"
Doesn't mean they can progress from that point....
Maybe make the qualifying Knowledge Arcana / Psionics 24 ranks each, ability to manifest 9th powers, cast 9th level spells - now that would normally preclude the good old psy warrior, but what if they took expanded spell slots (epic feats)? i mean, they have, in my proposed system, 40 levels. Probably they, around 28th level or so are roughly 14/14 psi warrior / defiler... so they use thier epic feat slots to get the ability to manifest 9th level powers.
OR (hold your breath for this one)
The only way for a psy warrior to become a dragon is to have SOMEONE ELSE cast the FIRST metamorphis spell (ie rajaat, another SK, dragon etc) maybe their is a ritual that can be created, where a loyal 20th-level mind-bender can assist...
Basically i see the dragon path as possible for pys warriors, but more difficult, i don't think the requirements should be watered down for them, but nor should they be excluded.
As for the whole divine rank, it's a nice way of using existing game-mechanics to explain thier immortality, powers and so forth. Additionally, if you go with the whole idea of a limited-pool-of-divinity applicable to athas (ie, none, zero, no true gods) then the SK's and dragons can all have divine rank 0. Remember, D&D's states that mortals don't have divine rank 0, they lack it entirely.
What this means for Darksun: Dragons, Avignons, and Elemental Characters all gain Divine Rank 0, they become immortal creatures, with access to some feats and powers slighly beyond even epic characters. However, none of them can become true gods (divine rank 1+) because there is NO POOL OF DIVINE RANK TO DIVIDE UP.
Solves the immortality things, maybe give them access to a couple of the slightly less powerfull divine feats (what do people think?) to reflect how truly epic... even beyond epic... they are without actually being god, kinda like what D&D suggests with the demon princes.
feedback appreciated!
Borys became a 10th-stage dragon, went insane, ravaged the tablelands and possibly caused the most damage to the planet as a whole. This scared the kiboodlies out of everyone, who immediately offed Dregoth, who was on the verge of becoming a 10th-stage as well (though ironically he had managed to stave off the dragon rages the entire time and likely would have maintained his sanity and power had they not killed him, thus providing a fully sane 10th-stage dragon-king that may've been able to knock some sense into Borys [since Hamanu and Dregoth were/are probably the two most poweful dragons, and fully transformed eithrof them could likely take down Borys, or at least pin him]). They're well aware of the dragon rages, and the idea of insane raging dragons is a bit scary. The only ones to pass through them were Borys (who went insane immediately), Dregoth (ever the anomaly, who managed to never succumb to them), and more recently Kalid-Ma (went insane, though should she [i like she better than he, it follows the naming conventions I always felt] be restored from her orbs she'll be perfectly sane and immune to further rage), Abalache-Re (who, assuming she succeeds in Forest Maker, also immediately rages), Kalak (who didn't even get a chance either way, but was pretty coherent at his death) and Hamanu (assuming the final events of Rofadik, wherein he also immediately rages, though manages to maintain a bit of control). Did I miss anyone? Anyway, of the remaining SMs, you have Lalali-Puy, Nibenay, Hamanu, Daskinor, Oronis, and yeah. Of them, right off the bat Hamanu essentially does all he can to resist the transformation (but fails as long as he . . . well, pretty much does anything beyond not move), Nibenay has halted his transformation until he can find a way to overcome the rages (enter siemhouk), daskinor's crazy, oronis isn't even a dragon anymore, and lalali-puy I dunno.
So that explains why they're all relatively low stage dragons. You could explain Kalid-Ma and Abalache-Re as either not caring about the rages, or believing they could prevent them through force of will as it seems Dregoth did.
nik
Originally posted by Jaanos
I was thinking about the psyhic warrior issue last night... talked it over with a mate of mine, hammanu, as far as our take of the SK's goes, is the only one who was a warrior - and he was transformed by Rajaat.
Actually, I saw it more that Hamanu and Borys were the Psychic Warriors - and that was why Rajaat gave them weapons, while the other Champions he didn't (I'm not getting into the Irikos dilemma with this) give any weapons to. The weapons were gifts to assist with their more martial/melee methods. Borys was actually more of a warrior in the few descriptions I've seen mention him, and of course, as the Dragon, he was pretty impressive all around. Of the surviving Champions, it leaves Hamanu as the only one that would fall into the "Psychic Warrior" line, IMHO.
Maybe make the qualifying Knowledge Arcana / Psionics 24 ranks each, ability to manifest 9th powers, cast 9th level spells - now that would normally preclude the good old psy warrior, but what if they took expanded spell slots (epic feats)? i mean, they have, in my proposed system, 40 levels. Probably they, around 28th level or so are roughly 14/14 psi warrior / defiler... so they use thier epic feat slots to get the ability to manifest 9th level powers.
The expanded spell slot epic feat would actually more roughly translate into more power points for psionics, as Power Points take the place of spell slots. It still doesn't permit them to learn any higher-level powers. Even if they could, there *are* no Psychic Warrior powers that are higher than level 6. It would be like saying that a PHB Bard could start developing level 7 - 9 arcane spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list arbitrarily.
OR (hold your breath for this one)
The only way for a psy warrior to become a dragon is to have SOMEONE ELSE cast the FIRST metamorphis spell (ie rajaat, another SK, dragon etc) maybe their is a ritual that can be created, where a loyal 20th-level mind-bender can assist...
I've considered this several times, and each time I'm left with the feeling it should be rejected. Off-hand, I don't know all the reasons I've rejected it (which is why I start to look at it again and again), but I just never warmed up to the idea.
Basically i see the dragon path as possible for pys warriors, but more difficult, i don't think the requirements should be watered down for them, but nor should they be excluded.
I wasn't watering the requirements for Psy Warriors. I was "watering them down" because in the d20 system, a character who multiclasses with a spellcasting and/or psionic class actually is penalized in ways that a character who multiclasses between non-spellcasting/psionic classes doesn't. For example - a level 40 character (20 Wizard/20 Psion) encounters a CR 40 creature which has a spell resistance (or power resistance) of 30. That character can pretty much do nothing against the creature. Further, a character with 20 levels of wizard would find that developing 20 levels in a psionic class to be.....redundant and pointless. They wouldn't really begin to reap the benefits of that psionic class until it got within 5-6 levels of the character's wizard class. Trust me, I've seen it in games, and have playtested the whole process extensively. I had a game where one character was multiclassing Sorcerer/Cleric, and he always seemed to be falling short of the capabilities of the other characters (only having level 3 spells when the others had level 6/7 spells), and was getting extraordinarily frustrated as a result. This problem was also talked about extensively on the older message board, between myself, Brax and a few others. We eventually came up with the idea that such requirements were redundant, and would need to be reviewed.
I tied it into the Psy Warriors simply because of ease - I was looking for how much to reduce the psionic requirement by, and it was staring at me on the Psychic Warrior page. It seemed to fit, and was rather effective. The Psychic Warrior needs about 10 more levels than a Psion does, and that easily represents the harder path a Psychic Warrior must take.
As for the whole divine rank, it's a nice way of using existing game-mechanics to explain thier immortality, powers and so forth. Additionally, if you go with the whole idea of a limited-pool-of-divinity applicable to athas (ie, none, zero, no true gods) then the SK's and dragons can all have divine rank 0. Remember, D&D's states that mortals don't have divine rank 0, they lack it entirely.
It's using a rule that is in place in a book that isn't OGL. As such, I felt it would be best not to muddle it up. Plus, there are things a divine rank 0 deity has that a champion doesn't, and there are things a champion has that a divine rank 0 deity doesn't. It's like red delicious and yellow delicious apples - they are similar, but at the same time, not the same thing.
What this means for Darksun: Dragons, Avignons, and Elemental Characters all gain Divine Rank 0, they become immortal creatures, with access to some feats and powers slighly beyond even epic characters. However, none of them can become true gods (divine rank 1+) because there is NO POOL OF DIVINE RANK TO DIVIDE UP.
Now, you see, you're mixing the special properties of a Sorcerer-Monarch (Champion) with those that Advanced Beings (Dragons, Avangions, Elementals, Spirits of the Land) have. The Champion has access to granting spells, and is basically immortal similar to a deity. Advanced Beings are characters who have used a mix of psionics and magic to make themselves something different. All the Champions are Advanced Beings, but not all Advanced Beings are Champions.
Solves the immortality things, maybe give them access to a couple of the slightly less powerfull divine feats (what do people think?) to reflect how truly epic... even beyond epic... they are without actually being god, kinda like what D&D suggests with the demon princes.
feedback appreciated!
It could help, but check out my Champion of Rajaat template. You could add a "divine rank 0" to it, and it would cover what you mentioned. I made it into a template (I forget who originally had the idea of making a Template for the Champions, I just worked within that idea and made the template).
Originally posted by Cap'n Nick
Regarding why the SMs haven't all been racing along their transformation processes . . . I thought the answer for that was along the lines of as follows:
Borys became a 10th-stage dragon, went insane, ravaged the tablelands and possibly caused the most damage to the planet as a whole.
He had help from the other Champions if I recall, they worked together to make him the Dragon quickly.
This scared the kiboodlies out of everyone, who immediately offed Dregoth, who was on the verge of becoming a 10th-stage as well (though ironically he had managed to stave off the dragon rages the entire time and likely would have maintained his sanity and power had they not killed him, thus providing a fully sane 10th-stage dragon-king that may've been able to knock some sense into Borys [since Hamanu and Dregoth were/are probably the two most poweful dragons, and fully transformed eithrof them could likely take down Borys, or at least pin him]).
True enough, of course, hamanu avoids the metamorphosis as much as he can. He's also a bit different from the other Champions, and probably could kill them all if he desired, simply because of what Rajaat made him for (to annihilate the Trolls, then Humans and other races, plus the other Champions).
They're well aware of the dragon rages, and the idea of insane raging dragons is a bit scary. The only ones to pass through them were Borys (who went insane immediately), Dregoth (ever the anomaly, who managed to never succumb to them), and more recently Kalid-Ma (went insane, though should she [i like she better than he, it follows the naming conventions I always felt] be restored from her orbs she'll be perfectly sane and immune to further rage), Abalache-Re (who, assuming she succeeds in Forest Maker, also immediately rages), Kalak (who didn't even get a chance either way, but was pretty coherent at his death) and Hamanu (assuming the final events of Rofadik, wherein he also immediately rages, though manages to maintain a bit of control).
Borys is my ultimate example of why the Dragon process shouldn't be rushed (like what Kalid-Ma and Kallak did), as it leaves the dragon weaker, and incapable of suppressing the rage that would drive them to do what Borys did. Borys was also underdeveloped the way I saw it (with descriptions of him being without wings, for one thing). I've accounted for these things in my Dragon writeups.
I don't think the Champions realize when the Animalistic Rampage actually occurs. Dregoth always gives me the impression he may have been already undergoing the metamorphosis when he was chosen to become a Champion, and thus was much further along in the process than the rest. I see him as one who didn't race to the end, and then the other Champions, in a panic, killed him for fear of him doing as Borys did. And it is pure irony that he had already beat that which they feared.
I actually haven't read much of anything in Forest Maker. I generally don't run pre-canned adventures, and while I have the books (PDF format), I never bothered to read about it.
Kalak really didn't have a chance to discover the wonders and joys of the insanity. But I bet he would have. Kalid-Ma did go whacko, and got put down by the other Champions as well.
If I recall, the events at the end of RaFoaDK actually occur further in the future, beyond the timeline position that the DS3 team is working from. However, due to Hamanu's unique qualities, he may be even more prone to the animalistic rage - sort of a nudge provided by Rajaat to ensure he completed his job.
Did I miss anyone? Anyway, of the remaining SMs, you have Lalali-Puy, Nibenay, Hamanu, Daskinor, Oronis, and yeah. Of them, right off the bat Hamanu essentially does all he can to resist the transformation (but fails as long as he . . . well, pretty much does anything beyond not move), Nibenay has halted his transformation until he can find a way to overcome the rages (enter siemhouk), daskinor's crazy, oronis isn't even a dragon anymore, and lalali-puy I dunno.
I'm going to cover more on Hamanu and what the metamorphosis means to him, and how he's different from the other Champions on my site eventually. Oronis is.... well not a Dragon, and thus also is rather unique. Well technically, *all* the champions are unique in their own way.
So that explains why they're all relatively low stage dragons. You could explain Kalid-Ma and Abalache-Re as either not caring about the rages, or believing they could prevent them through force of will as it seems Dregoth did.
I'd say Kalid-Ma might have not cared about it, or thought he had it solved. Of course, in my campaign, he's in a coma, stuck in Ravenloft with all of Kalidnay (while ruins remain where Kalidnay was at on Athas after it appeared to have been destroyed). He doesn't have much to say, and can't until (using Nyt's idea) someone finds the orbs that are hold his consciousness, with 3 on Athas and 2 in Ravenloft (which means it's very unlikely). Abalache-Re is technically deceased. She kinda got killed during the Prism Pentad book series (which while some don't like the idea of an adventuring group mixing things up that much, I do). She wasn't a fully-developed dragon in the PP books, so I left it as that. Lalai-Puy (which I think the Forestmaker was about) I haven't made into a full dragon... guess I will have to read that adventure.
The biggest problem I had with the idea was this: in 2e, you really couldn't multiclass (dual-class) out of the Advanced Being class you were working on (if memory serves). So..... 2 or 3 millenia pass.... and you somehow don't get experience to level? Especially with the wars and things that supposedly they had done during the Age of the Sorcerer-Kings? By all rights, Hamanu should have gotten enough experience during that time alone to make 2 fully-developed dragons, with him leading his armies (who are described as being more secondary to the effectveness of their lord).
Another thing to think about with my "expanded" Dragon - look at the experience point tables from 2e and the ones from 3e, while it's like looking at apples & oranges, a strict point-for-point conversion of a level 40-50 character (psionicist/defiler/dragon) in 2e would actually need more experience points than one in 3e/3.5e (if memory serves, I haven't looked at my 2e books in like forever).
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
He's also a bit different from the other Champions, and probably could kill them all if he desired, simply because of what Rajaat made him for (to annihilate the Trolls, then Humans and other races, plus the other Champions).
In the voice of Gandalf:
«One Guy to Kill Them All»
As to the arguments about prerequisits, I don't think there is areally satsfactory answer as in 3e you really have to stick to one path, unlike in 2e where multiclassing was a viable strategy, therefore a wizard/psion combination is weak. This is the one thing I really hate about 3e, as I always liked to play a multi-class character (the kensai kit dualed to a mage was a great combination).