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OK, i got that there are some dragons from another realm. But which dragon is an "alien" and which of them is still alive after the war of souls?
Pre WoS:
Frost(?)
Beryl
Skie
Malys
Post WoW:
Frost (?)
Gellidus [Frost] (ALIEN)
Onysablet [Sable] (ALIEN)
Cryonisis [Ice]
Frisindia [Freeze]
Fenalysten [Cinder]
Lorrinar [Fume] (ALIEN)
Mohrlex [Pitch]
Pyrothraxus [Pyro] (ALIEN)
It would just make things neater, and I wouldn't have to worry about more unstoppable dragon overlords in the future. I don't want Lorrinar growing up to be the size of Beryl for example.
So, Fume may eventually be a great wyrm dragon, but only with the passing of many years.
Cheers,
Cam
Hmm... I guess there wasn't any reason for them to be aliens then, except for the fact that some of the dragon overlords (such as Malystryx) didn't recognize Takhisis or humans.
Is Gellidus dead yet? ;)
I suggested that some humans think he's just a big dumb brute, and he smashed a cavern wall with his head and yelled a lot, so I didn't get any further than that.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Ah, okay. So there isn't any difference between the alien dragons and the native dragons? I was under the impression that the alien dragons were larger, dragon purge or no.
Hmm... I guess there wasn't any reason for them to be aliens then, except for the fact that some of the dragon overlords (such as Malystryx) didn't recognize Takhisis or humans.
Is Gellidus dead yet? ;)
The mechanical explanation, I believe, is that native dragons could not advance to epic dragon status (beyond the stated 12 dragon age categories). The alien dragons could do so, but only through the use of a skull totem. Once the native dragons discovered the use of skull totems, then they too could theoretically advance to epic dragon status.
Personally, my fondest hope is that the Key of Destiny trilogy kills him off. He is a boring character, and makes Southern Ergoth a big empty nothing with a big dragon (a few smaller dragons) in it. Why not use Eastern Icewall for that?
We need a populous evil empire, filled with human and non-human agents to provide more adventure hooks and scenerios. Ones that can contiually engage the rest of the world.
With Gellidus, the only scenerios available are "try to keep Gellidus quiet" and "Kill Gellidus". Once Gellidus is dead, then the entirety of Western Ansalon is "good". That gives you very little to do in Sancrist, Imperial Ergoth, or the Elven Colonies. The other half of the Ergothian Empire ruled by ogre masters would make for a good opponent to the other good nations of the West.
That, and doing something with the Daemon Warriors and Shadow Wights of Nostar and Enstar.
Did they just fly through space to reach Krynn or what?
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
How exactly did Malys and others GET to Krynn anyway?
Did they just fly through space to reach Krynn or what?
I believe it was planar travel through the Ethereal Sea ...
Originally posted by iltharanos
The mechanical explanation, I believe, is that native dragons could not advance to epic dragon status (beyond the stated 12 dragon age categories). The alien dragons could do so, but only through the use of a skull totem. Once the native dragons discovered the use of skull totems, then they too could theoretically advance to epic dragon status.
I don't (want or need too) dispute this fact at all, but I remeber reading somewhere that Malys and the other alien dragons come from another world where the native dragons are massive (far beyound the Kyrnnish 12 age categories) and they constantly fight amongst themselves. It also hinted that Malys was one of the smaller dragons of her homeworld.
So, if this where true, then all the other alien dragons would have to have skull totems on their world (so they could get huge fast and not die as little saplings), and that is where Malys picked up the idea t create one.
Is this at all acurate?
Now, the question is whether Malys was larger than Krynnish dragons when she arrived in the first place.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
The problem with that theory is that if Malys is one of the small dragons for her home planet, dragons on her planet don't get as big as she got on Krynn or they don't live long.
Now, the question is whether Malys was larger than Krynnish dragons when she arrived in the first place.
She was undoubtedly much larger than many native dragons when she first arrived on Krynn. If you've read the Dragons of a New Age trilogy it seems pretty evident that she had no skull totem when she first arrived on Krynn. Dozens of dead wyrms later, she's undoubtedly even larger.
As for dragons on Malys' world. Doubtless, the largest and most ancient wyrms there could have truly been massive. Even using the existing mechanics, Malys at her height of power was only 7 virtual age categories beyond great wyrm red (~63 HD). A skull totem with a power level of 10 would allow a great wyrm to reach 71 HD. One could even theorize that the dragons of Malys' world do not actually need skull totems to reach epic dragon status, but that skull totems are just an easy shortcut on their rise to power. Certainly quicker than waiting centuries for presumed sustained natural growth.
Just ask a simple question and get all information about Krynn
Originally posted by iltharanos
Post WOS dragon overlords left alive:
Gellidus [Frost] (ALIEN)
Onysablet [Sable] (ALIEN)
Cryonisis [Ice]
Frisindia [Freeze]
Fenalysten [Cinder]
Lorrinar [Fume] (ALIEN)
Mohrlex [Pitch]
Pyrothraxus [Pyro] (ALIEN)
What about Stenndunuus/Thunder (who is also alien)?
He isn't dead yet is he?
Thunder is dead, as a doornail. He was killed by Hogan Bight, who is secretly a bronze dragon. Thunder had previously had Iyesta killed by assassins during the night of the Takhisis' return. It was a rather satisfactory conclusion to the two dragon's cold war.
Originally posted by ferratus
The six months have past, so I don't need a spoiler for City of the Lost I guess.
Thunder is dead, as a doornail. He was killed by Hogan Bight, who is secretly a bronze dragon. Thunder had previously had Iyesta killed by assassins during the night of the assassins. It was a rather satisfactory conclusion to the two dragon's cold war.
Oh. Haven't read CotL yet. The Thunder references that I've seen floating around in the net actually make sense now. Thanks.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Now, the question is whether Malys was larger than Krynnish dragons when she arrived in the first place.
Yes...she was.
Because the first thing she did was kill a lizard...but she was so deprived of food from her journey to Ansalon that she didn't realize until it was too late that this not a lizard...but a black dragon.
So she obviously mamothed that creature (of course Blacks aren't that big to begin with...but she must have been quite a bit larger still to confuse a Black Dragon with an oversized lizard.)
Either way, I'm happy. It means I'll never see another new unstoppable dragon overlord again. The portals are closed, which means no alien dragons are going to come. The dragon purge storyline has been explored in full, so we aren't going to revisit the whole "dragons are killing and eating each other storyline" outside of perhaps a dragonlance homebrew DM's epic level campaign.
The problem with dragon overlords was not that there was an unstoppable god-like dragon. Every world has its weapon of destruction. Sauron, Iuz, the Tarrasque. However, all these things were unique. When they brought in 5 dragon overlords, plus 10 smaller great wyrms to rule over everything, it made the setting a one-trick pony. The 5th Age brought in some pretty neat minor ideas, but it didn't add depth or variety to the kinds of adventures you could play.
Variety is also the reason why I want Gellidus dead, or at least retconned. If he withdrew his icy grip from Southern Ergoth and ruled by the sheer threat of unleashing another fimbulwinter, then I could respect him. If he had a decades long ambition of sweeping away the old empire of Ergoth beneath the ice, and hardening his subjects by only allowing the strong survive (ala Fremen), and replacing it with a power to challenge the world, then I could respect him.
However, Gellidus is the second most powerful creature on Krynn. What does he do with that power?
Gellidus: I MAKE ICE AND KILL ADVENTURERS!
Good for you Gellidus, Good for you.
As an example of what I mean, by some miracle I managed to locate the 2e product "TSR Jam" to gain some info on Port Balifor. Inside the dragonlance portion of the adventure scenerios is quite familiar to everyone who has extensively read 5th Age gaming material. Stop me if you've never heard this adventure plot being used.
Heroes meet up with dragon overlord, dragon overlord roars threateningly, heroes are forced to run away and find a hidey-hole.
It seems like this plot point was in every single adventure. Wings of Fury? Yep. Heroes of Sorcery? Yep. 5th Age boxed set? Yep. You actually get to kill Brine in Heroes of Hope, though.
The point is which is better? 5 unstoppable dragon overlords or Mina, Sable, Dauroth, Dalamar and Toede? Obviously the latter, because the latter have different motivations, different methods, different needs, which means a variety of adventures.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Yes...she was.
Because the first thing she did was kill a lizard...but she was so deprived of food from her journey to Ansalon that she didn't realize until it was too late that this not a lizard...but a black dragon.
So she obviously mamothed that creature (of course Blacks aren't that big to begin with...but she must have been quite a bit larger still to confuse a Black Dragon with an oversized lizard.)
It was a hatchling (i.e. wyrmling) black dragon. According to the Draconomicon, a wyrmling black dragon is 4 feet long.
Originally posted by iltharanos
It was a hatchling (i.e. wyrmling) black dragon. According to the Draconomicon, a wyrmling black dragon is 4 feet long.
1. I'm not sure that it was a hatchling; I know it was young, but I don't think it was _that_ young.
2. That story was written back in 2E/SAGA days, when dragons were statted out as considerably larger than they are now.
Matthew L. Martin, (EDIT: One of the) Last Fans of the Great Dragons
Originally posted by ferratus
Okay, so we've got a difference of opinion on what makes an advanced dragon.
Well...we should probably go with the latest and greatest...because the Great Dragons (origin, make-up, etc.) has been completely retconned for War of Souls...so, the continuity is going to be screwed up no matter what, unless one accepts the retcon.
Originally posted by ferratus
The point is which is better? 5 unstoppable dragon overlords or Mina, Sable, Dauroth, Dalamar and Toede? Obviously the latter,
Well...obviously for you, Terry, but that doesn't make it so for everyone else. Really...it's just a personal judgement call. (as evidenced by the following)
Originally posted by MLM
Matthew L. Martin, Last Fan of the Great Dragons
There certainly are alot of assumptions going around.
Anyway...I'm pretty sure you're not the "Last" one, Matt.
:D
Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin
1. I'm not sure that it was a hatchling; I know it was young, but I don't think it was _that_ young.
2. That story was written back in 2E/SAGA days, when dragons were statted out as considerably larger than they are now.
Matthew L. Martin, (EDIT: One of the) Last Fans of the Great Dragons
1. Page 49 of the Dawning of a New Age specifically calls it a hatchling black dragon.
2. Even in 2nd edition, a hatchling black dragon was 11 feet long overall, 5 of those feet being tail length. Is 11 feet small even to an adult dragon? Yes. Much smaller? Most likely.
I'm really glad the War of Souls did something to swing the pendelum away from these uber-dragons. With the Gods and magic back, hopefully the races of krynn (including the dragons) will start taking back what is theirs.
I really, really want the native dragons to strike back.
Originally posted by iltharanos
1. Page 49 of the Dawning of a New Age specifically calls it a hatchling black dragon.
2. Even in 2nd edition, a hatchling black dragon was 11 feet long overall, 5 of those feet being tail length. Is 11 feet small even to an adult dragon? Yes. Much smaller? Most likely.
Thanks; my DL and 2E books are packed away in the garage, and I didn't have easy access to them.
Matthew L. Martin
Originally posted by Matthew L. Martin
Thanks; my DL and 2E books are packed away in the garage, and I didn't have easy access to them.
Matthew L. Martin
No prob.
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I'd like to have seen LOTS of smaller dragons ruling Dragonlance personally
Well, the problem there is that smaller dragons wouldn't have been able to rule like the Overlords did/do.
They have neither the size nor power.
"Worship me or die."
"Never!"
"Guys?"
*thousands of blue dragons descend on Solamia*
Sure you'd have to figure out why the Metallics were out of it (again) but heck, maybe they would have joined in post gods. The War of the Lance pretty much WAS the Dragons ruling Krynn with their High Lord Minions
There was two things wrong with the Dragon Overlords.
1) They were the only major plot line going on in the 5th Age.
2) They changed the landscape so that it displaced things for stuff we already had. Malys brought volcanic mountains... but we already had volcanic mountain. Gellidus turned Southern Ergoth into a giant glacier, but we already had a giant glacier. Sable made a giant swamp, but we already had a giant swamp.
Think of what would exist if Malystryx never came? A Kalinese nation on the Goodlund Penninsula. Wendle Centaurs, a small elven kingdom in Balinost. An expansion of the plains barbarian culture into the New Coast rather than simply being a tiny sideshow of Abanisania. An ancient empire ruled by barbaric masters in Southern Ergoth.
Yeah, this is my opinion of what would make a better campaign setting. But damn, how does having only one plot make a campaign setting better? Why did there have to be 5 dragon overlords and 10 dragon lords? Why not one dragon overlord and a handful of dragon lords to make room for other kinds of campaigns? Why is it better?
Besides, I would have liked to see dragons who knew how rule humanity. I still do. I'd respect Gellidus if he became the Emperor of Daltigoth, and ruled his cities and warlords with an iron fist. Stupid Ice-maker.
Originally posted by ferratus
One dragon-god and engine of destruction would have been a good idea. If Malystryx had gone to Nereka and ruled there, I would love Malystryx.
That would have just made Malys Takhisis-Lite.
The reason I think there had to be multiple is, well, to really show how powerful they are, and how badly they want to actually conquer, is that they go so far as to make uneasy alliances and such.
1) They were the only major plot line going on in the 5th Age.
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I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. But then, it's no worse than previous eras, where the WotL is the only major thing to do, and then the Chaos War.
But then, I've always said that the Overlords are a good idea that were badly executed.