Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 flindbar Feb 07, 2004 14:50:50	If a sorcerer king can grant spells to his templar, could not an avangion do the same but in a preserver way ??? A short but sweet question and one that may link to the other threads on whether templars should be their own class or a prestige class. Although non of the books suggest that this is the case, in fact it says quite clearly in DS v2 that Oronis's templars use no magic, it could possibly become an interesting option. Thoughts and comments ???
#2 zombiegleemax Feb 07, 2004 15:10:04	I'm not sure about the reason why Oronis' templars no longer cast spells. Anyone else have any canonicle knowledge or at least some theories? The reason why templars have magic at all stems from them having had a direct connection to the elemental planes via some kind of living elemental vortice. These vortices have since died off, but any connections prior to their extinction have remained. Basically, this means that there won't be any new SKs with spellcasting templars comming about, nor can a PC who has become a advanced being alot spells to his followers. It does some a bit dues ex machina, but still. Anyhow, that's canon. As for personal interpretation, sounds okay to me. Preserver/defiler seems to have little to do with the spells that a templar gains, since they're still coming from the elemental planes. I think the personal powers for an avangion's templar would be far different, but the spell lists may be quite similar to a dragon's templar.
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 07, 2004 16:23:32	Where does it say Oronis' tempalrs use no magic? I was never under that impression, and were that actually the case, what would be the point of him having a templarate in the first place? He might as well have a group of people who're preserers or psions. I wouldn't think there'd be a point, unless there was some corellation between templar maic channeling and the bounds of rajaat'sprison or power or something. A bit far-fetched perhaps, but who knows. nik
#4 zombiegleemax Feb 07, 2004 16:35:27	Wanderer's journal, page 89: "Oronis's templars don't serve as administrators in Kurn... Instead, they are the keepers and dispensers of knowledge, serving as teachers and advisers to local officials and businesses. It's also their job to oversee and handle the restoration process, under Oronis's supervision." Page 91 "His templars work to promote his (Oronis) plans and prepare to someday strike out from the valley with the knowledge of how to restore all of athas. Until then, they'll work to finisht the restoration of the valley and to perfect the society that Oronis has inspired." Other than that, I don't have much info on the templars. It doesn't say that they do or don't have magical power; I would assume that since a dragon has the ability to have templars, an avangion would have the same ability. A templar of Kurn could conceivably cast spells, though his spell list would probably be slightly different than a templar of another city state. Also, Oronis would probably give a templar of Kurn more freedom, and while he needs his templars in the city, he would be more accepting of a templar leaving Kurn. (learning about the outside world, etc.) but would probably have to keep his templar status secret.
#5 flindbar Feb 07, 2004 17:25:00	Woah Apologies to all. Phoenix is right about oronis's templars. I had completely misread the pages that you have quoted. I had thought that the SK's had a more direct involvement in the granting of spells to the templarate than the elemental votices though.
#6 flindbar Feb 07, 2004 17:25:00	Woah Apologies to all. Phoenix is right about oronis's templars. I had completely misread the pages that you have quoted. I had thought that the SK's had a more direct involvement in the granting of spells to the templarate than the elemental votices though.
#7 zombiegleemax Feb 07, 2004 21:38:29	hey no worries... i think theyre kind of interesting for a player character concept. But if it works for you to have Oronis's templars nonmagical, go for it.
#8 Pennarin Feb 07, 2004 23:26:50	Also it says it took him a 1000 years to develop an alternative to dragonhood. So many years stealing the life of people to stay young is not the path of the newly righteous... So we can presume he stopped being a dragon but stayed an immortal champion. As long as your still the latter you can grant spells to templars. Even dead Dregoth, before he rose again, was still connected to the dark lens/elemental vortice. But a corpse can't use the connection, and if his body had been cremated the connection would have been severed. Dregoth took back the reins behind the connection when he rose as one of the undead.
#9 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Feb 09, 2004 12:07:12	Plus, IIRC, the Templar Class actually makes a little leeeway for Oronis. The Templars can rebuke undead normally (as most have an evil SM), but Oronis' can turn them, or it was something like that. And don't forget - Oronis is the *only* avangion that can have templars, because he was Keltis, Champion of Rajaat. Just like how the Dragon Kings are the only Dragons that can have Templars, the non-Champion ones don't have that ability.
#10 flindbar Feb 09, 2004 12:32:10	The non-champion SK's ??????
#11 Kamelion Feb 09, 2004 12:39:30	What xdh actually said was the Dragon Kings are the only Dragons that can have Templars, the non-Champion ones don't have that ability He's referring to "non-Champion dragons" as opposed to "non-Champion sorcerer-kings". Farcluun was a dragon who was neither a Champion or a sorcerer-king and so had no templars. Can't think of any canonical sk's who weren't champions...
#12 zombiegleemax Feb 09, 2004 12:46:41	Kalak . . . if Hamanu is to be believed, he was never a champion, merely a very powerful defilre who snookered his way into sorcerer-kinghood. Maybe Kalak was a rejected student of Rajaat who wasn't chosen to be a champion. Or someone who wasn't willing to bow to rajaat for the pwoer he promised, wanting instead to steal and obtain what he wanted himself, without any middleman like rajaat. nick see: rafoadik (the extra "i" makes it kewler!)
#13 Kamelion Feb 09, 2004 12:58:29	Oh yeah, the Rise and Fall of a Unified Backstory... heh. I guess that a decision will have to made as part of the advanced being rules on how much of the novels are canon and how much are Bobby Ewing in the shower.
#14 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Feb 09, 2004 16:15:44	Originally posted by Cap'n Nick Kalak . . . if Hamanu is to be believed, he was never a champion, merely a very powerful defilre who snookered his way into sorcerer-kinghood. Maybe Kalak was a rejected student of Rajaat who wasn't chosen to be a champion. Or someone who wasn't willing to bow to rajaat for the pwoer he promised, wanting instead to steal and obtain what he wanted himself, without any middleman like rajaat. nick see: rafoadik (the extra "i" makes it kewler!) Lynn Abbey, who wrote Rise and Fall had sent out an e-mail to (someone), possibly the Dark Sun Mailing List even (I don't recall the exact details in that), where she mentioned that she was not privy to information that was released/planned to be released for Dark Sun when she wrote that book. TSR was keeping all of their authors in the dark, and not letting them communicate with the game department or even each other, IIRC. As such, she fudged many little things about Rise and Fall that she just didn't know any better. I've *always* taken the idea that Kalak wasn't a real Champion as one of those details. Kalak is the Ogre Doom, and Lynn Abbey had noted one of the female SK's (Lalai-Pui or Ablach-Re) as the Ogre Doom in Rise and Fall. While I do like the book, it does have a few....inaccuracies.
#15 Pennarin Feb 09, 2004 18:17:53	Originally posted by Cap'n Nick Kalak . . . if Hamanu is to be believed, he was never a champion, merely a very powerful defilre who snookered his way into sorcerer-kinghood. If City-State of Tyr is to be believed, Kalak was a 25th level human male defiler/psionicist... While in Black Flames, Farclunn was a dragon... The part where Kalak is human, I remember that when I first reading it I liked it: in the novels he appeared as truly old, he never changed appearences like other SKs, he has no draconic appearence at all until he gets transformed in his tower...and then long long after, I read RaFoaDK and apparently Abbey had seen the same thing I did, and took his apparent humanity and made him an human, and found a very ingenious way of permitting him to grant spells to his templars. I liked it so much I was left dumbfunded when I read the majority opinion on the boards being to the contrary, that Kalak just liked walking around as an old man and that that bit in City-State of Tyr was a kind of typo/ommission. He will always live in my memory as the most powerful mortal that ever lived.