Pride.
Compared to the other Overlords, he wasn't an intellectual giant, but his Intelligence is probably somewhere in the region of 18-20, which certainly isn't stupid.
Gellidus' problem is his personality. He's a bully who likes to think he's smarter than he is, gets mad when his plans are set awry, is constantly trying to prove his prowess and might to his peers, and is deeply insecure and needful of the occasional violent outburst to vent his frustration. A lot of the time he just sulks, but that's a precursor to some pretty brutal plan or another, stewing inside his enormous white skull.
Cheers,
Cam
As for the other dragon overlords... Sable probably wouldn't, and if she did, the one god that seems most in line with her way of thinking I would guess to be Sirrion, since they're both interested in experimenting and so on. I don't see that one happening, really. The minor ones are for the most part just big Krynnish dragons, and before the death of Takhisis would have been allied with her. After the war, they might seek a new god.
While the Evil gods might be happy to take on the overlords as servants, to some extent they're probably almost as annoyed as the Good and Neutral gods are about what a mess the invaders have made of Krynn. Hence initial warmth to their overtures is likely to be low. "Serve me or die" is probably a more likely position, especially on the parts of Sagonnas or Zeboim.
Remember that the gods already have dragons at their disposal. The overlords are simply very big ones. The problem is that ego plays a major part here. Under no circumstances will any of the (extremely tempermental) gods of Evil be willing to maintain even the pretense that an overlord is anything other than a minion. This would not be a "partnership".
And that is highly unappealing to the overlords, who are used to being big fish in a small pond.
However, since the gods of Good and Neutrality, both of whom want the environmental disasters cleaned up, have yet to take decisive action against them, the overlords aren't feeling badly pressured - yet.
But when servants of the gods start showing up mounted on Krynnish dragons and armed with Dragonlances and divine magic then servitude might start looking better and better.
Originally posted by pddisc
It would also prevent people (I'll leave Ferratus unnamed) complaining that Gellidus is doing nothing and nothing interesting is happening with Southern Ergoth.
But you didn't leave me unnamed. ;)
That's okay though. Gellidus' increased intelligence is a 3e retcon, due to the stats he needs to have to be as big as he is. In SAGA it was stated quite plainly that he was dumber than most humans and elves. So if I call him stupid, it is because he was stupid and (surprise, surprise) his actions have borne that out. He is a stupid, frolicking, ice maker. That is his function... and he is a waste of space.
Give me one plotline that can't be done with one of the powerful white dragons of Icewall, and maybe I'll feel differently. Heck, do something with the character that makes me sit up and take notice and I'll feel differently.
To bring this back full circle, so Gellidus can ally with the gods. Big Whoop, so can a dragon lord from Icewall. So Gellidus digs up a powerful magical artifact from a pre-cataclysmic empire... so can a dragon lord from Icewall. So Gellidus launches a campaign of conquest.... so can a dragon lord from Icewall.
In the end, no matter how cool you think the adventure featuring Gellidus is going to be, in the end it is just taking down a big white dragon and his minions. Which you can do... in Icewall.
That said, my fondest wish is that Key of Destiny finally puts a good axe to his head. The sooner we get his useless carcas out of the setting, the better. But hey, maybe he can be made into a decent villain. There is a theory that every comic book character will eventually have an author who will bring out his inner greatness. Bendis did it for Fancy Dan, Montana, and the Ox for pete's sake. Maybe something will happen that will make me like and respect Gellidus.
Sealing himself in his cave out of cowardice though... not a great way to start.
It's because Gellidus isn't the smartest or most prideful of the dragon overlords that I would choose him over all the other ones to consent to ally with a god, rather than sit in a hole and not do anything. Ferratus, you complain that Gellidus does nothing, and can do nothing that they can't do in Icewall - I'm giving him something to do. Icewall is too remote, and pretty much all your adventures are going to revolve around either white dragons or thanoi.
You also say that ogres should be the primary 'enemy' in a campaign. Well, I'm having them. They worship Zeboim, and work for Gellidus. They can raid somewhere interesting or important, and the terrain is going to vary enough that it doesn't get boring. Zeboim isn't going to be too annoyed at Gellidus, since he's created some interesting natural problems - random glaciers hitting vessels, the constant blizzard between North and South Ergoth, and so on.
I just think that the relationship between the gods and the dragon overlords needs some exploring, and if one can ally rather than draw universal hatred, it's more interesting and varied than all the gods hating all the dragon overlords. Isn't that another thing you're after, Ferratus? Variety and interest? Couldn't you accept Gellidus as being the one who allies rather than still having no personality? Would it not make Gellidus more palatable for you?
Originally posted by pddisc
You also say that ogres should be the primary 'enemy' in a campaign. Well, I'm having them. They worship Zeboim, and work for Gellidus. They can raid somewhere interesting or important, and the terrain is going to vary enough that it doesn't get boring. Zeboim isn't going to be too annoyed at Gellidus, since he's created some interesting natural problems - random glaciers hitting vessels, the constant blizzard between North and South Ergoth, and so on.
Actually, this isn't a bad idea. You could make use of the merrow, the aquatic ogres (aka yrasda), who would revere Zeboim and make for dangerous marine units in any ogre army. And it isn't as if Zeboim's doing a lot else currently.
As a means of providing Frost with something else to do, I think it works. You're also right in thinking that Southern Ergoth and Icewall are utterly different - and there's more than enough going on for the Cold Sisters in Icereach that kicking Frost's activity into gear would make them a little nervous, too.
Cheers,
Cam
Whatever Frost can do, the Icereach dragons can do? One can say that about anything! Why are the minotaurs invading the Silvanesti? The hobgoblins can do it! Why is a Wizard in Kalaman taking over people's minds? He could be from Palanthas! Why Nuitari? Why not Sargonnas?!
To look at a problem from that side one can make any character useless. What's the point of keeping Dalamar around? What niche does Jenna fill that any other red robe couldn't fill?
Originally posted by pddisc
I think the key difference with Gellidus vs the other dragon lords is location. He is in Southern Ergoth, and there he is a direct threat to many of the remaining elves, the Solamnics, Northern Ergothians, gnomes, and Abanasinia.
Yep, that is the key attraction for Southern Ergoth. See, the way I see it is that Gellidus is a chained threat in Limbo until we decide to something with him. If it was the humans and ogres who were a threat, they can have small groups infiltrating their neighbours, engaging in various plots, hatching conspiracies etc.
Now if Gellidus were to allow his ice to melt and Southern Ergoth to become prosperous again, we could have that. Instead he starved everyone to death except for the Ogres and imported a bunch of Thanoi. Why? Why not rule Southern Ergoth?
White dragons can rarely be used outside of Icewall and the extreme south, because Icewall is so far away - just about the only places they threaten are... the Plains of Dust and Flotsam.
Tarsis, the Missing City, Duntillok, Kharolis, Thorbardin, Qualinesti, Silvanesti and Chorane. Flotsam is too far away.
Besides, it isn't like anybody is going to allow Gellidus to conquer any more territory on a permanent basis anyway.
They also don't have ogre minions with their Thanoi, and Daltigoth can be a great place to explore under the semi-rule of Gellidus.
Yes they do. There are lots of Ogres and Thanoi in Icewall. That's where they came from.
It's because Gellidus isn't the smartest or most prideful of the dragon overlords that I would choose him over all the other ones to consent to ally with a god, rather than sit in a hole and not do anything. Ferratus, you complain that Gellidus does nothing, and can do nothing that they can't do in Icewall - I'm giving him something to do. Icewall is too remote, and pretty much all your adventures are going to revolve around either white dragons or thanoi.
See, but here again, I've proved that Icewall isn't too remote. You just overlooked 6 or 7 nations. Gellidus can threaten Northern Ergoth? Well he could have also threatened Duntillok. Threaten Tarsis instead of Abanisania. Threaten the Missing City instead of Sancrist. etc. etc.
I just think that the relationship between the gods and the dragon overlords needs some exploring, and if one can ally rather than draw universal hatred, it's more interesting and varied than all the gods hating all the dragon overlords. Isn't that another thing you're after, Ferratus? Variety and interest? Couldn't you accept Gellidus as being the one who allies rather than still having no personality? Would it not make Gellidus more palatable for you?
I had Sable ally with the churches of Morgion and Chemosh (see the last issue of the Tobril) so yeah I can certainly see dragon overlords allying with the gods.
You give Gellidus another minion. Okay, that's great. Why not thousands of them? Why not a nation capable of producing a war chest? Why is he ruling Icewall II instead of Daltigoth and the decayed remains of an ancient empire? Why did he starve all the humans and import Thanoi?
Melt the Ice and you have a powerful nation to draw upon again. Melt the ice and maybe I can respect Gellidus and find Southern Ergoth more interesting than Icewall itself.
Originally posted by ferratus
You give Gellidus another minion. Okay, that's great. Why not thousands of them? Why not a nation capable of producing a war chest? Why is he ruling Icewall II instead of Daltigoth and the decayed remains of an ancient empire? Why did he starve all the humans and import Thanoi?
Maybe he's taking a nod from your Black Robe murderers and killers?
Southern Ergoth isn't a single block of ice with some ogres sitting on it and a big white dragon muttering to himself. Take a look at the map. Silvamori, Qualimori, Castle Eastwatch and most of the southwestern quarter of Southern Ergoth is not a glacier. Nothing was happening in the north of the island to begin with, and the rest was mountains and waste.
I'm glad the ice hit the place, I really am. It gives the Kagonesti something else to be mad about than their elven cousins.
Cheers,
Cam
Now if Gellidus were to allow his ice to melt and Southern Ergoth to become prosperous again, we could have that. Instead he starved everyone to death except for the Ogres and imported a bunch of Thanoi. Why? Why not rule Southern Ergoth?
Because he's a white dragon. You could ask pretty much the same questions of Malys, turning the Dairly plains and Kendermore and everything else into the Desolation. White dragons like cold, red dragons like heat.
Tarsis, the Missing City, Duntillok, Kharolis, Thorbardin, Qualinesti, Silvanesti and Chorane. Flotsam is too far away.
I always get Flotsam and Tarsis mixed up. Regardless, Thorbardin; shut. Missing City, Duntollik, Kharolis; not very populous. Qualinesti; within reach of Southern Ergoth. Silvanesti; filled with minotaurs. Chorane; where? Compared to all the places I mentioned, there are a lot fewer people in these places.
As for having ogres and thanoi rather than humans - remember what alignment each is. Humans are notoriously untrustworthy, due to being neutral. Thanoi and ogres, on the other hand, are easier to handle. And what good would a war chest do Gellidus anyway? He has his home comforts (cold), so he can be happy with them.
But I suppose, to you at least, there's no saving Gellidus. He's not going to melt the ice, and there's reason he ever would or should.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Maybe he's taking a nod from your Black Robe murderers and killers?
Well, I'm a little distressed that it is only my black robes who are evil. I mean, what is the point of having an order divided into good, evil, and neutral members if everyone is just play acting at it? Why not just have a Neutral order that exists to keep magic under wraps? Why the stress on alignment?
Besides, what differentiates Gellidus from the black robes and any other worthwhile villain is that he is evil without purpose. He is nothing more than a breath weapon and claws.
Southern Ergoth isn't a single block of ice with some ogres sitting on it and a big white dragon muttering to himself. Take a look at the map. Silvamori, Qualimori, Castle Eastwatch and most of the southwestern quarter of Southern Ergoth is not a glacier.
Yeah, take a look at what we lost. Vocalion, Daltigoth, Pontigoth, Zhea Harbour and other cities. Citadels and Castles. I'm sure they would have, just like they did in the WotL modules, give the Kagonesti something to worry about than their elven cousins. It was not empty space and waste. Empty space and waste came with Gellidus.
If these cities are destroyed, it is Icewall II. If they are not destroyed and Gellidus sadistically allowed them to live on a subsistance level over the last couple years, let's make the people of Southern Ergoth a rising evil. Either way, we need to melt that damn ice, whether of Gellidus' violition or over his dead corpse.
Originally posted by pddisc
Because he's a white dragon. You could ask pretty much the same questions of Malys, turning the Dairly plains and Kendermore and everything else into the Desolation. White dragons like cold, red dragons like heat.
Then use Icewall, or have a glacier lair in the Lastgaard mountains, and go out and inspect his holdings in the winter time.
I always get Flotsam and Tarsis mixed up. Regardless, Thorbardin; shut.
He had access to magical cold right? *grins* Turn Thorbardin into a deep freezer. They'll open the door eventually.
Missing City, Duntollik, Kharolis; not very populous.
Populous enough for a campaign of conquest to be foiled by adventurers. It isn't like anyone is going to allow Gellidus to conquer anymore territory than he has now on a permanent basis. Though it would be kinda of cool for a Dragon Emperor of a newly united Ergothian Empire. Unless he just covered it with ice again.
Qualinesti; within reach of Southern Ergoth.
Yep, but... we already have an Icewall. The question is, why do we need two?
Silvanesti; filled with minotaurs.
Southern Ergoth was filled with elves, humans, and ogres. Conquer them.
Compared to all the places I mentioned, there are a lot fewer people in these places.
Yeah, I understand that was the rationale for him choosing Southern Ergoth. Then he killed them all and sits there doing nothing. Why not have him rule over a populous nation, so he can oppress on a daily basis? Otherwise we are just waiting for him to make his next move.
As for having ogres and thanoi rather than humans - remember what alignment each is. Humans are notoriously untrustworthy, due to being neutral.
That makes no sense at all. How can evil people be more trustworthy, even to other evil people? Besides, Ogres and Thanoi don't provide treasure for your horde and cattle for your belly.
But I suppose, to you at least, there's no saving Gellidus. He's not going to melt the ice, and there's reason he ever would or should.
That was what I felt when I killed him off in my Southern Ergoth write up. If you want to see it, here you go:
http://www.dragonlance.com/fan/rules/display.asp?id=11647
Cowardice.
Neutrals and Good have an appalling tendency to play the hero.