I hope I have post this topic on the right forum...
1) Would a Mystic be able to take the Divine Champion or Contemplative PrC? The Mystic Wanderer PrC?
2) Could a mystic have an patron deity and actively join a church of a god/dess?
Originally posted by Wizzy of Eros
Hello
I hope I have post this topic on the right forum...
1) Would a Mystic be able to take the Divine Champion or Contemplative PrC? The Mystic Wanderer PrC?
Probably not, yes, and yes. Mystics don't get their powers from a deity, so being a divine champion is more or less ruled out. You could change the class slightly to say that it's a champion of a specific domain or aspect of mysticism, but that's probably reaching somewhat.
2) Could a mystic have an patron deity and actively join a church of a god/dess?
Nope. If they choose a patron deity, then they're very likely going to end up as a cleric. The Holy Orders of the Stars won't admit mystics, I'm pretty sure.
Cheers,
Cam
I currently play a Mystic in my campaign, and finding a decent PrC (other then the couple in DLCS or AoM) to shoot for has been difficult to say the least. At this moment the Contemplative PrC has been the best fit that I've been able to find outside of the DLCS.
Thanks.
Dreggo
1 Rogue/1 Mystic Gully Dwarf
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Nope. If they choose a patron deity, then they're very likely going to end up as a cleric. The Holy Orders of the Stars won't admit mystics, I'm pretty sure.
Oh I don't know, aren't monks explained officially as being a variant of mystics?
I could see clerics being the active, evangelistic preisthood, while the mystics could be more representative of a cloistered and contemplative religious life.
I think in total mystics could be used in this fashion:
1) Atheists who follow a humanistic doctrine of self-awareness.
2) Charlatans of false religions such as the Seekers.
3) Anchorites, cloistered monks, and hermits of the Holy Order of the Stars (but not ministering priests and prophets).
That said, I can easily envision an order founded by ex-Clerics of Paladine who, while their deity as they know him is dead, have taken it upon themselves to keep his ideals alive. This order would be composed of mystics of LG, LN, and NG alignment, and have Good, Law, Protection, or Sun as their domain. If such an organization already exists... I don't have the AoM sourcebook, so I don't know about it.
A similar order might pop-up with Takhisis, but I doubt it. She got a few too many people mad at her. Unless Mina founded it...
Originally posted by ferratus
Oh I don't know, aren't monks explained officially as being a variant of mystics?
No. Case in point - you can multiclass as a monk and a cleric. Majere has a number of these as followers.
The Holy Orders would not admit mystics. Other spin-off orders or groups who are no longer within the Orders may be composed of mystics, many of whom could be disenchanted former clerics.
Cheers,
Cam
Because if I recall correctly we currently have no reference that says that mystics are unwelcome in the orders.
They really appear to be the same power manifested in different ways. One as a perfection of the self, and the other as an extension of one's will.
I would really appreciate it if someone would explain to me what power monks draw on, assuming it's not the same thing as the power of the heart.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Uh Cam, are you using inside information or just making a guess about Mystics not being accepted by the Orders of the Stars?
Because if I recall correctly we currently have no reference that says that mystics are unwelcome in the orders.
Actually, Cam is going on historical precedence and deductive reasoning.
The Holy Orders of the Stars are the organized faith of the deities (minus the Moon Gods). As such, they are comprised mainly of clerics.
Mystics are those who discover an inner faith.
While both clerics and mystics share certain qualities, they are also very different in how they approach faith. In a way, a mystic may even be considered a heathen priest (ala Dragonlance Adventures).
Mystics wouldn't be allowed into the Holy Orders of the Stars, as they have not dedicated themselves to a deity. This isn't to say that mystics and clerics can't get along. The clerics of Mishakal get along quite well with the mystics of the Citadel of Light, for example.
So while clerics and mystics can get along, the Holy Orders are for those who have given themselves fully to their deity.
They may be able to hold quite a conversation over a cup of tea but why would a Mystic even want to get THAT involved in a church of Sargas (for instance) and why would a church of Sargas want a none believer THAT involved.
You may be a redneck err Mystic
If you want to be ties to a power nation wide, to a divine organization, have ties to historic events/persons, a bond and faith in something greater than yourself then you may be a cleric.
If you simply want to have access to divine spells and have no one to answer to, no real doctrine, no real historical ties and just spend your life exploring your ties to the world and yourself then you may be a Mystic.
If you follow the restrictions in the Players Handbook regarding monks, if you stop taking monk levels and start taking levels in another class, that's it. The Forgotten Realms has a suggested variant on this rule, stating that certain clerics of martially-inclined gods may allow for unrestricted multiclassing with monks. In Dragonlance, a similar rule that states that monks who have Majere, Zivilyn or Sargonnas as a patron deity may freely multiclass with cleric, or mystics with Meditation, Law, or similar domains may have unrestricted monk multiclassing options, would resolve this issue.
The bottom line is, it seems as if monks are neither recipents of direct power from the gods, nor are they channeling ambient mystical energy. They're just capable of some pretty amazing stunts. My guess is that these secrets of discipline and martial prowess were passed onto Krynn's rare monastic groups by Majere, Zivilyn and Sargonnas, and have since been passed on from master to student for thousands of years.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Wizardman
That said, I can easily envision an order founded by ex-Clerics of Paladine who, while their deity as they know him is dead, have taken it upon themselves to keep his ideals alive. This order would be composed of mystics of LG, LN, and NG alignment, and have Good, Law, Protection, or Sun as their domain. If such an organization already exists... I don't have the AoM sourcebook, so I don't know about it.
There is a cluster of followers around paladine, but what they are doing or who they are has yet to be explored. I think most people have a remnant of the Church of Paladine around who do not worship him, but follow his teachings and do what they can as mystics. His followers will eventually dwindle away though.
A similar order might pop-up with Takhisis, but I doubt it. She got a few too many people mad at her. Unless Mina founded it...
Correct me if you disagree fanbase, but I think everyone is in agreement that they would like the Knights of Nereka to be devoted to the teachings of their dead goddess. I don't want to see a new patron diety of either Mina or the Knights of Nereka. Mysticism and Sorcery do just fine. Besides, it has always been Takhisis' followers, and converting the Knights of Nereka to another diety would just elbow the emerging churches of the dark gods to the sidelines of irrelevancy, just like Kiri-Jolith's church.
Now, this I don't think I share with the fanbase, but I would like the Knights of Solamnia to break with Kiri-Jolith. Instead, I would rather have the Knights of the Sword as mystics who revere all of the gods, but since they do not serve one in particular they do not have the epiphany and become clerics. That would allow the church of Kiri-Jolith to flourish as a crusading order. I think I'm alone in that however, because it is so ingrained in canon that the Knights of the Sword follow Kiri-Jolith. Then again, the death of Paladine might be the perfect excuse to shake things up. That diety was the primary patron after all.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The Holy Orders would not admit mystics. Other spin-off orders or groups who are no longer within the Orders may be composed of mystics, many of whom could be disenchanted former clerics.
I remember our disagreement a year ago about the fact that having prophets and a centralized ecclesiastical structure (plus direct practical communication with a diety would pretty much ensure a pretty uniform doctrines and dogma. The Holy Order of the Stars seems a very rigid heiarchy similar to Catholicism or Mormonism.
However, with mystics you can have many splinter groups and thus satisfy the desire for diversity and individualism.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The bottom line is, it seems as if monks are neither recipents of direct power from the gods, nor are they channeling ambient mystical energy. They're just capable of some pretty amazing stunts. My guess is that these secrets of discipline and martial prowess were passed onto Krynn's rare monastic groups by Majere, Zivilyn and Sargonnas, and have since been passed on from master to student for thousands of years.
There is certainly nothing wrong with introducing ki magic, nor song magic, shadow magic, place magic, fetish magic, totem magic or anything else. After all, sorcery on Krynn is chaotic.
The only thing we really need to remember for Krynn to be consistent is:
1) The Conclave considers all arcane magic that are not the rituals of the Orders of High Sorcery to be "impure" and "renegade" magics.
2) The only true faith is the Holy Order of the Stars.
Otherwise divine or arcane magic can be as varied as you want and still be consistent. Of course... the more you stray from magic in the feel of classical fantasy romance, the less like dragonlance it will seem.
Originally posted by ferratus
I remember our disagreement a year ago about the fact that having prophets and a centralized ecclesiastical structure (plus direct practical communication with a diety would pretty much ensure a pretty uniform doctrines and dogma. The Holy Order of the Stars seems a very rigid heiarchy similar to Catholicism or Mormonism.
Unlike the Orders of High Sorcery, the Holy Orders of the Stars do not necessarily get along, and in fact are quite competitive with each other - often to the point of outright hostility (as is the case with Sargonnas and Kiri-Jolith, etc.) Each Order has its own dogma, as described in the DLCS, its own heirarchy, and its own established means of celebrating holy days, feast days, rites, and so forth. You shouldn't lump them all together as one many-branched Church.
This allows a considerable amount of latitude between Orders on how they address matters of doctrine and faith, but regardless of each Order's individual point of view, they remain organizations founded on the true faith of the Gods. Thus, mystics are out of place and in some cases probably not well-received. On the other hand, as Dragonhelm points out, some of the Orders get along fairly well with like-minded mystics, but never to the point of inclusion, ordination and Order membership.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by yzarcrits
Where exactly can I find the Mystic Wanderer PrC at?
...
Thanks.
Dreggo
1 Rogue/1 Mystic Gully Dwarf
The Forgotten Realms accessory, Magic of Faerun.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Unlike the Orders of High Sorcery, the Holy Orders of the Stars do not necessarily get along, and in fact are quite competitive with each other - often to the point of outright hostility (as is the case with Sargonnas and Kiri-Jolith, etc.) Each Order has its own dogma, as described in the DLCS, its own heirarchy, and its own established means of celebrating holy days, feast days, rites, and so forth. You shouldn't lump them all together as one many-branched Church.
If I remember correctly, that wasn't the disagreement of our debate. It centered around whether the individual churches (such as Mishakal's) had a spiritual leader in Goldmoon, and followed the same dogmas and doctrines of that particular diety (ie. the Disks of Mishakal). In that sense, the faith of a diety was more authoritarian and hiearchical than you liked. But splinter groups made up of mystics helps add a little variety, to which I'm not averse. There is however, only "one true faith" and only one proper way of understanding the gods. Otherwise the Disks of Mishakal are redundant. Now that doesn't mean there isn't a variance in ritual and practice, but there is a prophet of the diety who speaks for the god or goddess.
Unless of course, you're a mystic who disputes that, and backs it up with his own miracles. They tend to come to bad ends though, because mysticism cannot really properly see you through when your faith is based on lies or misunderstanding.
As for the Orders of High Sorcery, they hate each other, particularly the white and the black. That's why they need the neutral ground of the Towers of High Sorcery. They do not "get along" and frankly that was the worst part of the "Defenders of Magic" trilogy and the "Dalamar the Dark" novel. Evil is just a misunderstood way of looking at the world.
Just because I'm a white robe and I'm pledged to serve magic first, doesn't mean I'm not going to try and stop that 
murdering psychopath as soon as I'm able to.The black robes and the white robes get along about as easily as the Jedi and the Sith. Given that black robes do things like say... use the blood of virgins to summon demons, you can see why a white robe would generally get a wee bit upset.
I imagine that the meetings between the orders at the Tower of Wayreth are terse, political, and tightly wound in protocol. I also imagine that without the WoHS "neutral ground" getting the various orders to cooperate is going to be much more difficult than it otherwise would be.
Originally posted by ferratus
As for the Orders of High Sorcery, they hate each other, particularly the white and the black. That's why they need the neutral ground of the Towers of High Sorcery. They do not "get along" and frankly that was the worst part of the "Defenders of Magic" trilogy and the "Dalamar the Dark" novel.
They may not like each other's particular flavor of magic, but the Orders of High Sorcery at least have common ground and place magic above moral philosophy. You're forgetting how well Par-Salian and Ladonna got along. The neutral ground of the Towers helped, but ultimately given that their one loyalty was to the Art, disagreements between alignments was seen as merely the way of the universe, not a matter of schism.
The Holy Orders on the other hand have only dogma and religion to compare with one another, and no such higher ground exists between them except the overall pantheons each Order falls under. Even then, to consider Hiddukel's clergy and Chemosh's dark priests as allies under the banner of Evil is misrepresentation. Loyalty for clerics is to their god first and foremost.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
They may not like each other's particular flavor of magic, but the Orders of High Sorcery at least have common ground and place magic above moral philosophy. You're forgetting how well Par-Salian and Ladonna got along. The neutral ground of the Towers helped, but ultimately given that their one loyalty was to the Art, disagreements between alignments was seen as merely the way of the universe, not a matter of schism.
They do indeed, but frankly you're forgetting that black robes are evil. If I'm a white robe who meets a black robe in the midst of battle, I'm not going to have a tacit agreement not to use my spells against my fellow mage. I'm going to counterspell and drive my dagger into his body. Frankly, if it came to it, that is what Par-Salin would have done to Ladonna (or vice versa) if the situation required it. Even though they are old friends and lovers. Imagine another white robe who only knows a black robe as an enemy.
The Holy Orders on the other hand have only dogma and religion to compare with one another, and no such higher ground exists between them except the overall pantheons each Order falls under. Even then, to consider Hiddukel's clergy and Chemosh's dark priests as allies under the banner of Evil is misrepresentation. Loyalty for clerics is to their god first and foremost.
Yeah, again that was never in debate. What we had debated is whether or not the churches of an individual diety had a uniform dogma and doctrine, and a spiritual leader in the prophet of that church.
That said, Paladine's prophet used to be able to pull rank on the prophets of the other dieties. Takhisis' Nighlords used to command the clerics of the lesser gods as well. It will be interesting to see how much more fractured the followers of good and evil are in the wake of the dragon gods' passing.
Originally posted by ferratus
They do indeed, but frankly you're forgetting that black robes are evil. If I'm a white robe who meets a black robe in the midst of battle, I'm not going to have a tacit agreement not to use my spells against my fellow mage. I'm going to counterspell and drive my dagger into his body. Frankly, if it came to it, that is what Par-Salin would have done to Ladonna (or vice versa) if the situation required it. Even though they are old friends and lovers. Imagine another white robe who only knows a black robe as an enemy.
I'm not forgetting a thing.
I'm saying that such concerns are secondary for the Orders. It is not a permanent state of civil war. It is a permanent state of sibling rivalry, where good, evil and neutrality have made an accord to work together for the sake of magic. It's understood by the wizards that they're going to end up on opposite sides in war, but they are all fine with that. It never gets in the way of their common (and primary) loyalty to magic, which is the factor missing from the relationship between the Holy Order of the Stars.Yeah, again that was never in debate. What we had debated is whether or not the churches of an individual diety had a uniform dogma and doctrine, and a spiritual leader in the prophet of that church.
It's fairly obvious to me that each deity's clergy shares a common dogma. I don't necessarily think however that the way that central faith tradition is expressed is identical no matter where you go. Think of it as the differences between Russian and Greek Orthodox churches. Culture has its own influence over the stylistic concerns of the various Holy Orders, and a burning mountain dropped on Istar eliminated a large chunk of cultural influence on the Orders which didn't come back when Goldmoon and her peers restored them to power in the War of the Lance.
And I think that once again I'm going to have to quit discussing this with you since the original thread topic's been hijacked, and you and I are never going to be on the same page with this sort of thing. It's the red robes, most likely.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I'm not forgetting a thing.
Yes, I'm not going to carry a grudge against that Nerakan black robe for burning my brother and father alive while he led an army of rapists and thieves against my home town. I'd fine with that.
I'd be fine with the fact that even if they didn't do something to me, but I know what crimes they are guilty of. I know that I would have to put aside my feelings for the sake of the magic, but I'll be gritting my teeth the entire time. Hold my anger and need for justice to be done behind the iron control and discipline I had in studying magic in the first place. Sibling rivalry? Give me a break Cam.
These are serial killers, war criminals, defilers of the dead, demon summoners, and torturers by the very nature of their magic. Sibling Rivalry? The black robes are my enemies. They are the ones who wish to destroy my peace for their own power. They are the ones who must be opposed at every opportunity. It is a constant state of civil war outside of the Towers of High Sorcery, because the forces of good and evil are always at war.
It's fairly obvious to me that each deity's clergy shares a common dogma. I don't necessarily think however that the way that central faith tradition is expressed is identical no matter where you go.
Yeah, again there is differences between the worship of the god culturally. Fine. However, there is a spiritual leader there (the prophet) and there is no place in Krynn's religion for a splinter sect that will be recognized by the diety. That is why the platinum disks of Mishakal and other holy texts were so important. Not only to discover the gods, but to have a proper worship and understanding of the gods.
Yes, I'm not going to carry a grudge against that Nerakan black robe for burning my brother and father alive while he led an army of rapists and thieves against my home town. I'd fine with that. I'd be fine with the fact that even if they didn't do something to me, but I know what crimes they are guilty of.
But they do meet together for the promotion of magic regardless of the events or even warfare outside of the towers. Regardless of the '****, burnings, etc...' which rarely happens because most Black Robes are smart enough and are not going to make themselves targets in that fashion (basically the old Chaotic Evil vs. Chaotic Stupid), you put a bunch of white robes and a bunch of black robes together in a tower and you will not have to worry about the war spilling into the tower itself.
Yes, a number of white robes may 'hate' the black robes (and vice versa), but they still work with them for the benefit of magic irregardless of that. Because if they don't, then they are no different than the clerics fighting the wars in the Krynnish Pantheon that the moons broke off from.
Originally posted by ferratus
Yes, I'm not going to carry a grudge against that Nerakan black robe for burning my brother and father alive while he led an army of rapists and thieves against my home town. I'd fine with that.
Black Robes don’t work in this fashion, though. They do some cruel things, but they tend to work in subtler ways.
I know that I would have to put aside my feelings for the sake of the magic, but I'll be gritting my teeth the entire time. Hold my anger and need for justice to be done behind the iron control and discipline I had in studying magic in the first place. Sibling rivalry? Give me a break Cam.
Actually, Cam’s assessment is dead-on. In a way, it’s like when brother fought against brother during the Civil War. They would fight on the battlefield, but in their own homes, they were family. (This is simplifying things, of course.)
Remember the tenets of the Orders of High Sorcery (quoted from the DLCS):
1. All wizards are brothers and sisters in their order. All orders are brothers and sisters in the power.
2. The places of High Sorcery are held in common among all orders and no sorcery is to be used there in anger against fellow wizards.
3. The world beyond the towers may bring brother against sister and order against order, but such is the way of the universe.
These are serial killers, war criminals, defilers of the dead, demon summoners, and torturers by the very nature of their magic. Sibling Rivalry? The black robes are my enemies. They are the ones who wish to destroy my peace for their own power. They are the ones who must be opposed at every opportunity. It is a constant state of civil war outside of the Towers of High Sorcery, because the forces of good and evil are always at war.
The Test of High Sorcery is put in place to ensure that wizards use their magic responsibly. Black Robes don’t go out and cause rampant destruction. They don’t kill someone just to kill them. However, they would kill a person in order to gain a powerful magical artifact (example).
Sure, Black Robes and White Robes may find themselves at odds outside the towers (especially if there’s a war going on). At the same time, they may very well discuss arcane secrets (especially in the towers).
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
1. All wizards are brothers and sisters in their order. All orders are brothers and sisters in the power.
2. The places of High Sorcery are held in common among all orders and no sorcery is to be used there in anger against fellow wizards.
3. The world beyond the towers may bring brother against sister and order against order, but such is the way of the universe.
Yep, which basically boils down to "don't kill each other in the towers". Yeah, they band together to protect magic as a necessity, but white robes and black robes don't drink hot apple cider and sing around the piano. Well, in most cases anyway. Neutral ground is very important to keeping the Orders of High Sorcery intact.
The social situation in the Tower of High Sorcery is tense. You are in a room with murderers, abusers of people, practitioners of dark magic which thrives on fear, lust and death. How can it be any different? The white robes may be forced to follow the rules of the conclave, but they aren't friends (as a general rule) with black robed mages. Exceptions exist (such as Par-Salin and Ladonna), but these are exceptions.
The Test of High Sorcery is put in place to ensure that wizards use their magic responsibly. Black Robes don’t go out and cause rampant destruction. They don’t kill someone just to kill them. However, they would kill a person in order to gain a powerful magical artifact (example).
Yeah, they're not insane. They understand the consequences of their actions. They do however, ride with (and sometimes command) the dragonarmies, who were a pack of butchers, rapists and thieves. They run with evil adventurers. They murder. They steal. They scheme. They are EVIL. Can I put that in capital letters? EVIL.
Sure, Black Robes and White Robes may find themselves at odds outside the towers (especially if there’s a war going on). At the same time, they may very well discuss arcane secrets (especially in the towers).
I'm sure they do, but why do they have to like each other?
Originally posted by Halabis
Just because yer evil doesnt make you a homicidal maniac.
I have a feeling that to some people, who consider themselves good people, anybody described as evil (especially those who seem to embrace the alignment) must be suffering from a mental illness.
And anybody described as neutral must just be undecided.
Neither is the case in Dragonlance.
Cheers,
Cam
But if you are outside the Towers, I doubt too many wizards think hard before they go casting spells on rival wizards. If your in a war, I dont think you have a lot of time to think things out in the heat of battle. If you see a black robe, blast them.
"Black Robes don’t work in this fashion, though. They do some cruel things, but they tend to work in subtler ways. "
Maybe, but that doesnt mean there arent ones who do do some really mean and sick things. They helped create the draconians, which is a pretty messed up thing. They curupted a totally good being. To me, thats pretty messed up. But as ferratus said, if you see your family die at the hands of a black robe, I doubt your just going to put those feelings away and not do anything. I could even see a white robe hunting the black robe down to avenge his loved ones.
I guess I see the Towers as a sort of "home base". Almost like holy ground to the immortals in Highlander. That might be oversimplifying, but thats how i see it. Even if, if...the black robe doesnt do anything really messed up in the war, if i was a white robe and knew that the guy was on other side and I knew he watched the killings and didnt feel anything, that would give me enough hate to hunt the guy down. There had to be black robes who either helped the slaughter of people or at least were there and didnt do anything.
Originally posted by True_Blue
Maybe, but that doesnt mean there arent ones who do do some really mean and sick things. They helped create the draconians, which is a pretty messed up thing. They curupted a totally good being. To me, thats pretty messed up. But as ferratus said, if you see your family die at the hands of a black robe, I doubt your just going to put those feelings away and not do anything. I could even see a white robe hunting the black robe down to avenge his loved ones.
I would expect anybody who sees another person killing his family would be motivated to revenge them, whether they were wizards or not. I don't think that's being called into question.
It isn't that placing one's loyalty first to magic prevents a wizard from harming or coming into conflict with another. It's that a wizard doesn't just go out and try to eliminate all the opposing aligned wizards outside of the Towers based on their alignment.
The assumption here seems to be that wizards are in a state of civil war outside of the Towers because they are mortal enemies. They aren't, not unless some other force or extenuating circumstances make it so.
White Robe: "Look! A Black Robe! I am forced to kill you based on your different alignment!"
Black Robe: "...I'm just having a cup of coffee. Couldn't this wait until I have time to hunt down your loved ones and turn them into artichokes?"
One hopes that good-aligned folk on Ansalon don't have their primary motor functions directly plugged into their morality. That wouldn't just be non-good, it'd be rude.
Cheers,
Cam
The Black Robes, is where it seems problems happen. Some people think that Black Robes go around doing whatever evil thing they can do. Others think they have some strict code that yes they do evil, but only within limits and they have to check a list or something to see if its all right. Personally, I just believe they do whatever they think they can get away with. But, trying to make sure the red and white robes don't notice and cause a big fuss about it.
If a black robe sees a white robe at an inn sitting drinking tea, do you think that he might think to himself, "If I kill him, I could get his magic weapons and his spellbooks"? Killing the white robe I dont think exactly further the cause of magic, but I could see him doing it because he is evil and will take what he wants. I dont picture them as madmen who go around burning random villages, but I also dont see them as people who have some secret "evil list" that tells them what they can and cant do.
As i said before, I see the Towers as home bases, and attacks and the like arent allowed there. And if situation arises and gets out of hand (Raistlin, Kingpriest, creation of dragon orbs, etc.), they ban together and put differences aside and do what needs to be done. But besides that, I think they can pretty much do what they want.
Originally posted by Wizardman
They can walk into a village and make with the fireballs, but they are subject to retribution, and the Order of Black Robes as a whole won't lift a finger to help- they may even be the ones bringing the retribution, if they feel that the individual is giving magic a bad name.
Yeah, as said before the Black Robes aren't insane. They understand that the ruthless pursuit of power must be tempered with caution. The white robes understand
I agree with Cam. The Orders aren't in civil war outside the Tower. The gods wouldn't stand for it. Individuals will fight and kill each other, yes, but that's not commonplace unless they find themselves on opposite sides of a battle, in which case all Orders agree that anything goes.
Yes, like the dragonarmies. Like various mercenary legions, like the Solamnic Auxillary, like a black robe's personal undead legion.
Whites and Reds may hold Blacks accountable for what they do in wars, but unless they are personally driven to avenge the victims or are members of the Solamnic auxiliary sent to execute the Black Robe, they usually won't attack.
So let me get this straight? If you are witnessing a black robe say, murdering a gnome in a dwarven dungeon, you expect the white robe to just sit back and say "well, I should be offended by this, but he's a brother mage.".
I'm having a little trouble understanding where you all are coming from. You don't want the black robes to not do anything dangerous or destructive, but doesn't that just make them model citizens? What the heck is up with Necromancy as the black robe's favourite school? That is all about either killing people, or defiling their bodies after death. If this is the case, wouldn't Necromancy itself be a banned school?
Besides, if the black robes don't do anything "evil" what's the point of having them as villains?
The way I see it, Black Robes are willing to be ruthless in the pursuit of power, wealth and glory. Their tool is dark magic, which corrupts and destroys them, much to Nuitari's pleasure. The white robes are compelled to thwart evil and preserve peace and the sanctity of life. Therefore, the members of the white and the black robes hate each other. Exceptions yes. The rule? Not without either a lot of play-acting at being evil by the black robes, or callous indifference by the white.
Originally posted by ferratus
So let me get this straight? If you are witnessing a black robe say, murdering a gnome in a dwarven dungeon, you expect the white robe to just sit back and say "well, I should be offended by this, but he's a brother mage.".
Nope. You should defend the gnome, even if that means attacking your fellow mage.
On the other hand, you're not supposed to attack Black Robes simply because they're Black Robes.
Originally posted by ferratus
So let me get this straight? If you are witnessing a black robe say, murdering a gnome in a dwarven dungeon, you expect the white robe to just sit back and say "well, I should be offended by this, but he's a brother mage.".
Nobody has suggested this to be the case. The wizard should respond like anybody else of good alignment should, but it's the act of murdering another which provokes it, not the fact that the other wizard wears the Black Robes.
I'm having a little trouble understanding where you all are coming from. You don't want the black robes to not do anything dangerous or destructive, but doesn't that just make them model citizens? What the heck is up with Necromancy as the black robe's favourite school? That is all about either killing people, or defiling their bodies after death. If this is the case, wouldn't Necromancy itself be a banned school?
Of course not. Necromancy is a valid school of magic, favored by Nuitari and accessible by many other wizards. It has its uses and abuses. It's not all about sucking the life out of people, but it does include a lot of spells which focus on the nature of life and death. Many White Robes might have no problem at all with undead, while others could find them an abomination worthy of destruction. I'd consider that something that hinges on their personality and approach to magic, even within the Order of the White Robes. The White Robed mages aren't paladins, for crying out loud.
It seems as if you have this opinion that it is the White Robe's duty to wipe out evil magic in the world and the Black Robe's duty to cause pain and suffering. In truth, it is the duty of both Orders to preserve and keep sacred the gift of magic which has been granted them by the Gods, to prevent abuses by those who use it, and to glory in its wonders. How this is accomplished is what differentiates the White, Red and Black.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
So let me get this straight? If you are witnessing a black robe say, murdering a gnome in a dwarven dungeon, you expect the white robe to just sit back and say "well, I should be offended by this, but he's a brother mage.".
No, the White Robe would be defending the gnome. Remember, wizards come to blow outside of the Towers, but not within their walls.
The way I see it, Black Robes are willing to be ruthless in the pursuit of power, wealth and glory.
Aha! And herein lies the heart of our discussion – intent.
Black Robes are evil, yes. They do nasty things. But you have to ask yourself why they do nasty things. Unlike the Dragonarmies and other various evil factions, they don’t do evil just to do evil. They don’t just go out and slaughter someone for the sake of it.
A Black Robe would seek power, yes, and with a fervor! Raistlin wanted nothing short of becoming a god. Let me clarify that power mostly relates to magic.
Yet at the same time, they wouldn’t be concerned about wealth or glory. The magic comes first. Remember the tale of the Black Robe (either in Soulforge or Brothers in Arms) who used her magic to gain wealth. Nuitari was none too pleased with this.
Black Robes are concerned with magic, and the power that comes through magic. They are evil, and wouldn’t stop at killing someone or doing other evil things so long as the end result benefits their magic.
What I like about them is that they’re not just your average conquering and killing bad guys. They have focus, and that’s what gives them flavor.