The 2nd ed Player's Guide to the Planes said: "The bariaur is a centaurlike being of the Upper Planes, but it's hardly a centaur. In appearance, it's a combination of man and ram or woman and ewe. Roughly human sized, it has the body of a large goat and the torso and arms of a human. The head is a mixture of human and animal. Males have a pair of ram's horns, but females lack them."
It also listed their ability score adjustments as Str +1, Con +1, Dex -1, Wis -1 for the males, or Str -1, Dex -1, Int +1, Wis +1 for the females. I understand the need for unisex stats (including the ram attack), but I don't see how these ability adjustments translate into +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha, which is what the latest chapter_2.rtf file has?
So, my questions for any PS3e people around are:
- Why size Large and 10-ft. reach, limiting weapon choice and movement? BTW, the centaur has only 5-ft. reach.
- Why the 3 racial HD, limiting access to the race to players of 6th level and greater (ECL is +5)?
- Why the -2 Charisma for a race described as "social and outgoing, friendly to strangers"? Aren't there enough planar races with -2 Cha already?
Please note that this is not a rant, I'm just curious to hear the reasons for the changes made. Unless they are surprisingly good, I think I'll keep playing the old bariaur (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis, size medium, no racial HD, LA +2).
ditch it and use the one from Manual of the Planes
the new bariaur comes from the Book of Exalted Deeds, a book that is famous for being a pile of non-sense.
I too use the MotP bariaur because it's MUCH easier to use at low levels. The Savage species trend is too much. I'm officially putting it up there with my disdain for the Ridiculous Level Handbook. I now remember why I disallowed the Humanoids handbook back in 2e... I actually had little pencil NO's on each creature I found to be totally broken!!!
Myself I use the MotP version. There's some select parts of the BoED that I don't care for. Interesting yes, generally well written yes, but I didn't care for the:
A) disregard for prior material, both Planescape and even the 3e MotP ie. replacing all of the Guardinal paragons except Talisid just because they wanted to do so and didn't have all of the Planescape material to reference (?!)
B) new versions of monsters that already had stats in other books that varied widely with the prior version. It wasn't just a 3.5 upgrade or anything, the Bariuar is a totally different critter from the earlier one...
Still, the book was interesting even if I don't care for select portions of it
I agree with those who want them to be easier to include in low-level parties, but I can't call it blasphemy to make them bigger. Roughly human-sized isn't the same thing as human-sized - bariaurs are, traditionally, big, tough creatures.
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
They were listed as large and 7 hit dice in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix, Vol. One. Making them medium and 1 hit die in the Manual of the Planes was quite a downgrade, but acceptable in the spirit of making it easier to play them. The Book of Exalted Deeds' large and 3 HD isn't quite back to the classic monster description, but that was probably overkill.
I agree with those who want them to be easier to include in low-level parties, but I can't call it blasphemy to make them bigger. Roughly human-sized isn't the same thing as human-sized - bariaurs are, traditionally, big, tough creatures.
Monstrous Compendium lists bariaur as Large, but size categories weren't the same thing in 2 E. It says they are 7 ft. tall (which is size Medium in 3e...
) and it also says their intelligence is "High" (13-14), so does that mean that PS3E bariaur should have +4 to Int? Making them medium and 1 HD in MotP is not a downgrade. It is a reasonable adjustment that allows bariaur to be a PC race, which they originally were, in the PS Player's Guide. How is a bariaur Ranger 7 with no racial HD "weaker" than bariaur with 7HD of monstrous humanoid?
"Traditionally big, tough creatures" isn't the same thing as +4 Str, +2 Con, size Large, and 10-ft. reach. Show me one Planescape product that indicated bariaur are supposed to be that big and tough. They're not ogres with hooves, FFS
Human (medium) + Horse (large) = Centaur (large)
Human (medium) + Goat (medium) = Bariaur (medium)
If the only reason to change the bariaur really was the BoED, I'm definitely using the old version. Or am I supposed to change it again when they redo the goat in another quasi-planar book?!
I think though, that common sense has to rule here. Make them take up the spaces for a large creature, make them drink the water and eat the food of a large creature, but don't give them reach. As for +4 str, that is what your typical orc gets, it is nowhere near the +10 of an ogre. I don't like monster hit dice in general (particularly the savage species "treat them as levels" mentality), though, and for bariaur especially.