Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Feb 12, 2004 13:17:58	Hello all, In the Monster section the conversion of the Jozhal has the ECl at a +2. Can anyone out there explain the reasoning for this? I would like to state for the record that I am [u]not[/u] an game designer, but I do understand some of its precepts. ;) Thanks for the help!
#2 nytcrawlr Feb 12, 2004 14:33:51	Originally posted by erasmus1634 Hello all, In the Monster section the conversion of the Jozhal has the ECl at a +2. Can anyone out there explain the reasoning for this? I would like to state for the record that I am [u]not[/u] an game designer, but I do understand some of its precepts. ;) According to the latest version of ToA they have an ECL/LA of +2, they drop the 1 HD in favor of whatever class they take. Why? Their stats are unbalanced. They tend to always have magic items, 1d4 to be exact. Psionics and racial skill bonuses add to this as well. Now mind you this still may be high, but it's probably not far off. However, until we get some real playtesting feedback it won't be changing anytime soon, since it's too hard to just eyeball at this point.
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 12, 2004 15:12:12	Originally posted by NytCrawlr According to the latest version of ToA they have an ECL/LA of +2, they drop the 1 HD in favor of whatever class they take. Why? Their stats are unbalanced. They tend to always have magic items, 1d4 to be exact. Psionics and racial skill bonuses add to this as well. Now mind you this still may be high, but it's probably not far off. However, until we get some real playtesting feedback it won't be changing anytime soon, since it's too hard to just eyeball at this point. Maybe I should learn how to read. Had I read the entry a little more closely I wouldn't have asked the question... Even with the other powers, those stats are pretty bad. Especially that -4 to Str. I will agree that it should be a +2 ECL, even though I would lean towards a +1.5 ECL (even though a 1.5 doesn't exist. Not really a 1 but not really a 2)
#4 Shei-Nad Feb 12, 2004 15:18:33	For having done lots of work on races, monsters, mechanics and balancing myself, I think that the idea of having Jozhals start with an extra 1d4 minor magic items, while interesting and original, can't possibly be balanced mechanically, especially not with a level adjustment... One Jozhal rogue could get an arcane scroll with one first level spell on it, like detect undead for example, which he can only use with a Use Magic Device check, and then, only in very specific situations, and could very well be used for nothing at all. On the other hand, the other Jozhal could get 4 objects worth thousands of cps, if he's lucky enough to fall into the wonderous items range, or even a minor ring or wand. Seems pretty weird to me... I like my *unbalancing* racial adjustments better! :p
#5 Pennarin Feb 12, 2004 15:41:05	Then the 1d4 items should be of a value no more than X Cp and no less than X Cp. Playtesting should set the right amounts and it ought to go official, because you're right: you can't base a fixed ECL/LA on a random element.
#6 nytcrawlr Feb 12, 2004 16:12:17	Thinking on the magic item thing, I could have sworn I killed that. Hmmm... /me gets with monster bureau
#7 Kamelion Feb 12, 2004 16:27:00	For having done lots of work on races, monsters, mechanics and balancing myself, I think that the idea of having Jozhals start with an extra 1d4 minor magic items, while interesting and original, can't possibly be balanced mechanically, especially not with a level adjustment... Just to clarify, jozhal PCs do not start with magical items. The preview release is missing text that is included in the ToA document. The extra magical items are for NPC jozhals. Jozhal player characters are assumed to have passed over such opportunities in favor of those offered by the adventuring lifestyle. With the psionics, natural armour and attacks, spell resistance and wonky ability scores, +2 seems a good starting point. It needs a good playtest to see more... (Edit for spelling. Heh - hey there Nyt )
#8 zombiegleemax Feb 12, 2004 23:35:36	Thank the who knows what for the correction then. Even I found that to be more thana bit absurd. I don't even dole out potions all that often in my games, I'll be darn hard pressed to allow a race that starts out with magic items from the get-go.
#9 Kamelion Feb 13, 2004 2:09:41	Totally. And even now there's still the risk that a party of low-level PCs will get funny ideas about saddling up their inixes and going jozhal-huntin'... "They're reel good eatin' and they always has shiny goodies in their pockets. I'm hopin' ta bag three or four..."
#10 jon_oracle_of_athas Feb 13, 2004 7:36:01	Not to mention the idea of the Black Sand raiders with parasols to give them shade.
#11 zombiegleemax Feb 13, 2004 8:26:44	Originally posted by Kamelion Totally. And even now there's still the risk that a party of low-level PCs will get funny ideas about saddling up their inixes and going jozhal-huntin'... "They're reel good eatin' and they always has shiny goodies in their pockets. I'm hopin' ta bag three or four..." The party would do that once... The second time they headed out on a jozhal expedition they would encounter the King of the Jozhal the paragon of the species...
#12 Kamelion Feb 13, 2004 8:35:37	Heh heh heh - yes indeed. Famous Athasian last words #125: "I see. I didn't know that jozhals could become avangions. Can I apologise and put it back?"
#13 nytcrawlr Feb 13, 2004 16:25:50	Originally posted by erasmus1634 The party would do that once... The second time they headed out on a jozhal expedition they would encounter the King of the Jozhal the paragon of the species... Ooh! I smell NPC writeup. "My name is...my name is...chica chica..KING KOOPA!"
#14 jon_oracle_of_athas Feb 15, 2004 12:09:50	"My name is...my name is...chica chica..KING KOOPA!" Ral have mercy on your soul. The party would do that once... The second time they headed out on a jozhal expedition they would encounter the King of the Jozhal the paragon of the species... Shouldn't the Jozhal king have better things to occupy himself with than smiting low level adventurers?
#15 Kamelion Feb 15, 2004 12:20:05	Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas Shouldn't the Jozhal king have better things to occupy himself with than smiting low level adventurers? Absolutely. Such as furthering his nefarious machinations against the Dark Empress Of All Wezers.
#16 jon_oracle_of_athas Feb 15, 2004 12:25:48	Hmm. If I ever game with you, Kamelion, I'll play Squeeky - the Jozhal King's nail-trimming servant.
#17 Kamelion Feb 15, 2004 12:54:20	You could start with as many as 1d4 magical keen nailtrimmers in that case. I am both a kind and generous DM :D
#18 flip Feb 16, 2004 8:39:52	Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas Ral have mercy on your soul. There isn't mercy enough to make up for that...
#19 nytcrawlr Feb 16, 2004 15:08:38	Originally posted by flip There isn't mercy enough to make up for that... No one enjoys my sense of humor.
#20 jon_oracle_of_athas Feb 17, 2004 6:59:33	So, what would be an appropriate punishment, Flip? Boot him out of the Templarate? (see, you don't like my humour either)