Aka the folks who ask for stats for The Lady, endlessly ponder (more and more questionable) ways to kill Her, and then complain you're not playing fair when you attempt to explain the difference between an NPC and a setting mechanic. Some folks just can't wrap their brain around that little concept. But, I digress.
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77171
This thread branched off of an earlier thread involved the fiends uniting and invading Sigil and tossing out The Lady of Pain on their own, somehow. The arguments as to how this happened got blunted enough times that folks got PO'd that we spoiled their party and they spawned a new thread to asking advice on how to defeat Her Dream Majesty like some sort of EPIC monster. This too I suspect will end poorly and leave them frustrated to no end.
*shimmery with a healthy glow of setting arrogance and Planescape snobbery*
*takes a deep breath and resists the temptation to mock people*
Thanks, by the way, for contridicting the post that said to either use an epic level spell to destroy the spire or simply use explosives to destroy it. It caused my brain to hurt when I read about the epic spell (and the excuse that there was no 3e mechanic that didn't allow such a thing to happen), and I was figuratively screaming "What about the Rilmani?" when the whole explosives idea was proposed.
I am reminded of why Natural Selection among humans would be a good idea.
The question boils down to: Should anything in your game be so fundamentally important that the absence of such would ruin the total enjoyment of the game? Personally, I'd say no. No one thing whether person, place, or thing should be more important that the PCs themselves, as far as the game is concerned. But then again, I'm the same person who regularly tosses my Dark Sun party into a den several ravenous tembo to watch the carnage. In Plancescape, I'd just as soon send them to feed the Wyrm.
Originally posted by Toras
Its painful, very painful. And the Armaggedon thread in the same forum is almost as bad, as it spawned this one.
I am reminded of why Natural Selection among humans would be a good idea.
Then, if Natural Selection is what you want, let's set Charles Darwin on them:
Queen of Wands
LoL!
But alas, poor Primus, ever since that Orcus incident, everyone seems to want to pick on the exemplar of Law, it isn't fair. Just because Primus is the only exemplar that has reveiled himself(er, itself?), that doesn't mean everyone should pick on the poor guy. I mean, Modrons are actually quite sensitive, and their feelings are easily hurt! Insentive Bastards!!!!
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Well, on the topic, I'd say that the only being that could defeat the lady of pain, a unknowable, mysteryious, seemingly omnipotent entity, would be another unknowable, mysteryious, seemingly omnipotent entity. The only one besides the Lady I can think of isn't even part(well, actually, he was in the 1st addition Powers and Pantheons book hehe), of the D&D multiverse. The being I am refering to is Cthulthu(spelling?).
Basically, the lady tries to flay Cthulthu with her shadow, which simply angers ol' tenticles. In response, Cthulthu turns his octopoid gaze upon the lady, who then goes completely insane, and starts flaying everyone she lays eyes upon.
Then of coarse, the Dm could create another being similiar to the Lady of Pain, called the Man of Destruction, and have the two get married, and leave this boring multiverse where everyone is trying to kill them behind.
The entire thing is a waste of time if you ask me, since their are far better things to do than simply kill someone in a game, like create new Demiplanes(Have you seen my thread yet? If you haven't LOOK at it! Mhahaha, shameless plug!)
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Then, if Natural Selection is what you want, let's set Charles Darwin on them:
Queen of Wands
That was incredibly amusing :D
*runs off to post it on the wall in the staff meeting room of the biology department*
That entire "Natural Selection" joke is tasteless in my opinion.
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It seems Shemi responded before I could edit my post above hers, drat!
the last guy who tried to finish with the lady was a near level 40 ranger/cleric name lord darkwood...
I bet that lord darkwood would be able to sweep the floor with them.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Then, if Natural Selection is what you want, let's set Charles Darwin on them:
Queen of Wands
The only problem with this is that natural selection is based off of who can pass on more genes. (insert boring rant about living with your cousin and having 15 kids.)
(and something about memes, too)
But - ya know, some things just *should* be unbeatable. It helps keep pesky players in their place.
Yet there seems to be - as Shemeska put it - a near obsession within some players about taking down each settings Big Bad...
Originally posted by Sildatorak
The only problem with this is that natural selection is based off of who can pass on more genes. (insert boring rant about living with your cousin and having 15 kids.)
(and something about memes, too)
Or it could just be a joke about a 19th Century scientist going after dumb people with a chainsaw...
kids-"All the dumb people are out-populating us"
darwin-"AND NOW YOU DIE!"
I've always wondered just how powerful he did get though when he fought her the last time (before getting bottled in the Labyrinth Gem). I can't help but get an anticipatory shiver when reading that excerpt of text at the start of Faction War that Darkwood was reading, telling the tale of the Ancient Wizard (him) fighting Her Serenity. Always wondered what "Stony Magic" was, and why Carceri, Celestia and Acheron were listed as seemingly places of great magic. Lots of names and places that no longer exist at all, or in the same light, as when those events took place. Evocative stuff...
Well, on the topic, I'd say that the only being that could defeat the lady of pain, a unknowable, mysteryious, seemingly omnipotent entity, would be another unknowable, mysteryious, seemingly omnipotent entity. The only one besides the Lady I can think of isn't even part(well, actually, he was in the 1st addition Powers and Pantheons book hehe), of the D&D multiverse. The being I am refering to is Cthulthu(spelling?).
Basically, the lady tries to flay Cthulthu with her shadow, which simply angers ol' tenticles. In response, Cthulthu turns his octopoid gaze upon the lady, who then goes completely insane, and starts flaying everyone she lays eyes upon.
Her Serenity would annihilate Cthulhu.
Only Azathoth, Shub-Niggurath and Yog-Sothoth can be considered 'true deities' in that sense of the word. They're more sentient hungry concepts than distinct individuals with divine power. Maybe Nyarlathotep as well, and he frankly fits in well with the Satan archetype. But this is all off topic :88E:
*runs away in a weaving pattern for the Hounds they are lean and athirst!*
Originally posted by Ornum
What a ridiculous question that was. What really got me was the 'I don't care myself, but she has to be defeatable'. And even asking about an "official" way to do it. Why do people assume that everything that happens in the planes should be understood by mortals or that every creatue that exists in the planes should be defeatable?
I'd venture to say they assume this because if there isn't a way to interact with the "setting mechanics", then they are boring. Of course the Lady of Pain doesn't speak or otherwise interact with PCs, so the only thing left to do is try to get one up on Her. Really now, simply telling someone the Lady of Pain is a game mechanic and cannot be messed with takes away all the mystery and coolness about her. Even thinking of Her as just a plot device of Planescape weaken's Her image considerably. No, I'd rather say there is a truth to Her Serenity, and to the multiverse itself. While it may be nigh impossible to learn the dark of such things, the quest is most of the fun to begin with.
And of course, let's remember, this is D&D. Things are understood by their relative power level.
PSers (myself included) have a habit of looking down on certain gamers for a variety of reasons. Whether you feel this is reasonable and justified or not, please remember that we are trying to appeal to new gamers to Planescape, and we're not going to do that by insulting them and crushing their thoughts under our canonical boots. Their are much better directions to turn discussion of the Lady other than Her purpose in the setting and how nothing will work.
"In silence, in solitude, entombed here in the depths of Her Serenity’s Vaults I wait. Patient as the Great Spire and fearing none, for I see where others do not. Only by our Lady’s Will does darkness cloud my eyes as I wait for HUBRIS to shake the Heavens and Hells."
When spoken to, among other things, he made reference to being there "...sequestered behind Bladed Gates at the behest of beings greater than myself..."
Anytime I've hinted in any way at the involvement of The Lady it has literally spooked the players. I've tried not to overdo it, but it's highly effective in giving a plotline some depth, implied history, and persistant mystery. Suffice to say, Her Serenity has some connection to at least a vague portion of my campaign's metaplot. Don't expect me to be giving answers as to Her true history, nature, etc. But raising more questions as you give information is something I enjoy doing.
Perhaps any of them here care to speak up on this?
Actually, in the same area as that, she could easily fit as "Being" in regards to my two eternals "Being" and "Change" concept... hrmn...
Originally posted by Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
Her Serenity would annihilate Cthulhu.
If we are playing the Call of Chthulu setting, whatever it is you want to call Lovecraft's version of existence, then Cthulu would likely win in a direct fight. If we're playing in Planescape, then Dolores would likely do worse than merely flay or maze Ol' Tentacles. It's really just a matter of setting and perspective.
The Lady is an undefeatable setting mechanic that always wins in short order. If you pit one undefeatable setting mechanic that always wins in short order against another undefeatable setting mechanic that always wins in short order, you're in for a very, very stupid argument. A very stupid argument with no answer.
Anyway, more on topic, if some particular group wants to run a planescape game where the Lady gets her ass kicked by a kobold on PCP, so be it. It's not cannon planescape. If some group wants to have their LVL 5ZILLION UBER CHARS LOL I KICKED THE LADYS BUTT characters, so be it. We're all free to lose all the respect for them we want. If someone wants to argue about it in my game, they can stop before they start. If they want to argue about it out of game, as far as I'm concerned, they can stop before they start, because I'm probably not listening. But in their own games? Have fun guys. Just don't think you're playing according to the setting.
Incidentally, this is why I don't try to play Darksun without the desert, or Dragonlance without, say, dragons, or Shadowrun without corporations, or In Nomine without The Symphony, or Forgotten Realms without RulesLawyers (sorry, cheap shot.
) Or Vampire: The Masquerade without Vampirism. I personally, like to stay fairly true to the setting.In general though, the obession with defeating the Lady seems to stem from some vestigial desire for winning the game. If you're not concerned with needing to be the biggest fish in the pond, then defeating the lady isn't really something to worry about, I figure.
However, destroying the Lady would mean the end of the multiverse as we know it, because she and her mysteryious temporal counterpart are the only things preventing the forces of Elsewhere(which includes the Far Realm and other, completely alien Multiverses, the Serphent is one such being), from entering and destroying the Multiverse as we know it.
Thats why, at least in my campaign, the Lady acts like she does. Anyone trying to defeat her, or threaten Sigil(which has its own secrets the Lady wishes noone but she is privy to), is also threatening the entire Multiverse itself, and therefore, is subject to either a maze, or a flaying, depending on the individual. Even Gods are not immune to this law. She doesn't like laying down the law on berks, but then again, what is the death of one foolish and ignorant individual or God, compared to the entire multiverse?
Worship serves to weaken the Lady, and she'll eventually lose all her powers if it grew bad enough, hense, worshiping the lady also endangers the multiverse, and warrants punishment.
The other cosmic being(who dwells somewhere in the Plane of Time's second layer of Metatime), also punishes offenders, although he or it does so by banishing them from the entire Multiverse itself.
Thus in my campaign, the Lady is FAR more than simply a setting mechanic.
The characters rarely see her, which is the way I want it. she is the one constant in the universe to rely on, do anything you want anywhere you want, just dont forget two rules.
1.
You deal with any consequences.
2.
You harm a dubus, sigil, speak to the lady or worship the lady and you will either get mazed or her shadow will flay you.
No saving throws, no defence. All who traverse Sigil quickly learn about her (unless your clueless), you go up against her thats it, bosh and a new character for you if your character if flayed and a personal D&D session for the maze if your mazed, you get 3 of them over a month period after that your character is lost but you may try again each month to have them get out. In the mean time roll up a new character.
that is the way I play it and thats the end.
I have had flayed characters before. like a level 20/20 Fighter/mage (whilst I played 2nd ed) that tried. The PC should have known better and was quickly told to roll up a new character after I had warned him they would not survive the encounter if he tried.
He was not happy.... tough, but I did warn him
There is a reason why she was never, ever given any stats in any official source. If you give it stats, people will try and kill it. If it doesn't have stats, people will demand them so they can kill it. Really, do these people also expect stats for the Highgod of Krynn, for Lord Ao of Toril? Do they expect an Epic spell to break them free of Ravenloft just because they are Uber-level and can make some dice rolls?
What kind of people genuinely expect to kill the Lady of Pain in a campagin? Have they already amassed a deific hit list, does the DM not care about the setting, do the players just not understand what the setting is? Do they just want a list of monsters delivered right to them for easy harvesting of XP and treasure?
Given the scale of the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk deities listed in MotP & F&P, you could give her some stats that would even make Thor and Torm cringe, but what's the point, some leet-fanboy-lamer would just write up a group of 200th level PC's with ridiculous templates and epic items that have a cost more than the net worth of some small prime worlds, run it under a poor DM, and spend years boasting that they killed the Lady of Pain.
But LoP is NOT DEFINED. If anyone tried to create stats for her, it would be describing what she really is - not much mystery then. Good for a single campaign, bad if done in official way.
In my campaign, she is the Avatar of AO and Mists. Yes, indeed, she had divine rank 20, tons of levels and hd etc. It was a campaign reward to find out what she is.In another campaign she would be very very different, and even have different stats. If you were saying that she's a force with the power of AO or Mists, then, she doesn't need stats at all(but even then, at least an Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma Score would be appopriate), unless your PCs are all intermediate or greater deities!
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I still like the stat block for the Lady of Pain that was posted up a few months ago. It was a perfect representation of her that I intend to use for my upcoming PS campaign, so much so that I think I'll even leave it out on the gaming table for the players to see. Anyone still have the thread link? Might do a similar write-up for Rajaat in Dark Sun.
Did that, by any chance, have the word "infinity" wherever a number would normally be? If so, I'm the author.