Ok, got the articles section up, and only have one article in it so far, probably some have been anxiously awaiting for.
Kalak vs. Irikos
Let me know what you think.
Will be getting some more updates and clean ups as the weekend progresses, but won't probably become public till the begining of next week.
Enjoy.
I think another possibility is that Kalak was chosen to replace the other guy as a champion when said champion died.
Just imagine that it has crippling effects (DC 100) while its happening, from the pain inflicted by the metamorphic transformation: hit points severly reduced, kalak unable to use spellcasting as the DC to cast the spell increases (+20) every round while its happening, considered prone and fatigued because he's become a larvae, etc...
If he'd succeded, the effects would have dissapeared at the end of the spell and the hp would have returned through normal healing.
Originally posted by Pennarin
They might still have succeded, it all depends upon the effects of the spell Kalak used.
Just imagine that it has crippling effects (DC 100) while its happening, from the pain inflicted by the metamorphic transformation: hit points severly reduced, kalak unable to use spellcasting as the DC to cast the spell increases (+20) every round while its happening, considered prone and fatigued because he's become a larvae, etc...
If he'd succeded, the effects would have dissapeared at the end of the spell and the hp would have returned through normal healing.
While that's one of the better arguments, I still don't think it would have been enough for the heroes to win against Kalak so easily, especially since there were no casualties. With fighting the other SMs there were.
Also, something that always struck me as odd. Rajaat made three swords, he gave two to two of his champions, but then gave the third to this other guy that was just a warlord and never became a champion? Doesn't make sense to me.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Also, something that always struck me as odd. Rajaat made three swords, he gave two to two of his champions, but then gave the third to this other guy that was just a warlord and never became a champion? Doesn't make sense to me.
Hooo...I see the problem with my post now.
What I didn't say was that I went with the "typo" option to explain Irikos. So he *is* a champion.
I imagine he annihilated an unknown race. Answers all problems.
Makes the typo only one word long: orcs.
Quoting myself:
«As for Irikos, he died after having completed is task of racial elimination, thus Rajaat would have had no need to replace him. Thus with no replacement among the known Champions we must add another race to slaughter and another base Champion dedicated to that task.»
The Timeline entry *can* read:
-Guthay's Defiance: Irikos, 16th Champion of Rajaat kills the last of the [insert unknown race name here] of Athas.
Possible if you consider the whole "Denning said there were more champions he never mentionned" thing. ;)
Originally posted by Pennarin
The Timeline entry *can* read:
-Guthay's Defiance: Irikos, 16th Champion of Rajaat kills the last of the [insert unknown race name here] of Athas.
Possible if you consider the whole "Denning said there were more champions he never mentionned" thing. ;)
That works too.
I just want Kalak gone and out of the whole champion circle to begin with, since after reading all five books it struck me as odd that he was one in the first place since he was killed so easily.
Yeah, you can chalk it up to ego and such as well, but damn, you would think at one point he would snap out of that and kick some butt, and he didn't. Also since he seems to be the oldest champion this also doesn't make sense since he would have the highest Wisdom of the group.
Kalak just wasn't a champon IMO, and just happen to be at the right place during the right time, hence Hammanu's assessment of him.
Though in my mind Irikos could very well be a great warlord and not a champion, I do like, and always had, the idea of Kalak having not yet started his dragon transformation, and this does provide some explanation.
However, there is one change I would submit, as there seem to be a problem with Kalak's ability to grant templar magic. While I do think having Sacha and Wyan provide that energy for a false champion is very original and good, these champions never had the ability to grant templar spells, for the magic that attracted the living vortices came form the completion of Borys's rebellion and full transformation into a dragon. The timeline specifically states that both were beheaded before this, and I find it very unlikely that the remaining champions would reward them in such a way afterwards.
So, Kalak would have to have been part of Borys's rebellion, or at least have contributed to Rajaat's emprisonnement. You could have Kalak have not been a champion, but have been part of Borys's magic, and had a living vortice grafted unto him.
By the way, I always thought it unclear that the champions were initially transformed into 1st stage dragons at that moment, and not later by themselves. What I've read tells me that they were first given the secrets of dragon transformation, and the magic borys used to reward them began their transformation into sorcerer kings, not necessarily dragons. This could simply mean that they got the ability to grant their spells (in addition to their champion benefits, which Kalak still didn't have). So Kalak would have had the ability to grant spells, and a good reason for taking over a city.
Just some thoughts...
Just imagine that it has crippling effects (DC 100) while its happening, from the pain inflicted by the metamorphic transformation: hit points severly reduced, kalak unable to use spellcasting as the DC to cast the spell increases (+20) every round while its happening, considered prone and fatigued because he's become a larvae, etc...
I used something like this when I ran Freedom a few months back. I also never liked the ease with which the Heartwood Spear killed him. We also had an elemental earth cleric working all sorts of funky magic on Kalak's little obsidian pyramid in the arena. Continued damage to that decreased Kalak's power in increments.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
I like this.
Danke.
However, there is one change I would submit, as there seem to be a problem with Kalak's ability to grant templar magic. While I do think having Sacha and Wyan provide that energy for a false champion is very original and good, these champions never had the ability to grant templar spells, for the magic that attracted the living vortices came form the completion of Borys's rebellion and full transformation into a dragon. The timeline specifically states that both were beheaded before this, and I find it very unlikely that the remaining champions would reward them in such a way afterwards.
Doh! Thought I took that into consideration too.
Will definately have to patch that hole up.
So, Kalak would have to have been part of Borys's rebellion, or at least have contributed to Rajaat's emprisonnement. You could have Kalak have not been a champion, but have been part of Borys's magic, and had a living vortice grafted unto him.
I like that. He wouldn't have the Champion of Rajaat template on him, but whatever template that would give him the vortice control. He would then still need Kalid-Ma's works on Dragon transformation, and the aid from Sacha and Wyan in order to become a Dragon.
By the way, I always thought it unclear that the champions were initially transformed into 1st stage dragons at that moment, and not later by themselves. What I've read tells me that they were first given the secrets of dragon transformation, and the magic borys used to reward them began their transformation into sorcerer kings, not necessarily dragons. This could simply mean that they got the ability to grant their spells (in addition to their champion benefits, which Kalak still didn't have). So Kalak would have had the ability to grant spells, and a good reason for taking over a city.
Yeah. If you go by xlorep's rules I think most of the Champions/SMs would have at least most if not all of the first PrC of the Dragon transformation.
In fact, when I was thinking about how I would write up Irikos it made sense that he had most if not all of it himself.
I also see him as more of a psychic warrior/wizard (defiler), with some fighter levels as well, like Hammanu and Borys would have. It makes sense since all three were given Rajaat's swords, all of which would require the proficiency in martial weapons to use, which I don't believe Nibenay et al would have.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr:Originally posted by Shei-Nad:
By the way, I always thought it unclear that the champions were initially transformed into 1st stage dragons at that moment, and not later by themselves. What I've read tells me that they were first given the secrets of dragon transformation, and the magic borys used to reward them began their transformation into sorcerer kings, not necessarily dragons. This could simply mean that they got the ability to grant their spells (in addition to their champion benefits, which Kalak still didn't have). So Kalak would have had the ability to grant spells, and a good reason for taking over a city.
Yeah. If you go by xlorep's rules I think most of the Champions/SMs would have at least most if not all of the first PrC of the Dragon transformation.
In fact, when I was thinking about how I would write up Irikos it made sense that he had most if not all of it himself.
I also see him as more of a psychic warrior/wizard (defiler), with some fighter levels as well, like Hammanu and Borys would have. It makes sense since all three were given Rajaat's swords, all of which would require the proficiency in martial weapons to use, which I don't believe Nibenay et al would have.
The way I have it written up, I leave the two parts separate - I figured that probably some of the SK's were already dragons (namely: Dregoth) when they were made SK's, while others were not (but were probably well along the way towards it).
I currently have the Champions being able to grant spells by virtue of them being champions, but am going to adjust it and explain that the ability is something that Borys added (even if I still *love* the idea of Champions using Templars in their wars, as healers/commanders). If I separate the parts that deal with templars all together from the Champion template, and make another template (maybe.... "Sorcerer-Monarch"), then yea, Kalak could be explained like Shei-Nad does using my system.
he problem with giving Sacha & Wyan the ability to grant spells to Templars (besides the issue that Borys gave that ability to the rebel Champions) is then Tithian should have been able to "fake" being a Sorcerer-King better, what with having spells being provided to the Tyrian templarate. However, if Kalak was actually present at the rebellion (and thus got some "grudging" respect by the Champions), Borys might have gifted him with the ability to grant spells to Templars, which in turn would have made him a Sorcerer-King, while still not being a Champion.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I currently have the Champions being able to grant spells by virtue of them being champions, but am going to adjust it and explain that the ability is something that Borys added (even if I still *love* the idea of Champions using Templars in their wars, as healers/commanders). If I separate the parts that deal with templars all together from the Champion template, and make another template (maybe.... "Sorcerer-Monarch"), then yea, Kalak could be explained like Shei-Nad does using my system.
Cool. I think it makes more sense this way and was pondering a name for said template while in the shower, funny enough I came up with the same name "Sorcerer Monarch" template, seems fitting. It probably wouldn't do much, just grant them access to the vortices and allow them to grant spells to their templars. We could really define it though and even give it a range is so desired, one that extends based on HD or something.
The problem with giving Sacha & Wyan the ability to grant spells to Templars (besides the issue that Borys gave that ability to the rebel Champions) is then Tithian should have been able to "fake" being a Sorcerer-King better, what with having spells being provided to the Tyrian templarate.
Yeah, I was thinking of that during my shower pondering, heh.
Kicking myself for not thinking of that earlier, oh well, that is what a community is for.
However, if Kalak was actually present at the rebellion (and thus got some "grudging" respect by the Champions), Borys might have gifted him with the ability to grant spells to Templars, which in turn would have made him a Sorcerer-King, while still not being a Champion.
Exactly.
I've got some ideas on this that I might bounce off of you, but I need to sit down and read your SM rules from cover to cover and then go from there.
I'll bounce you an email soon on what I think.
Well, I've broken up the Sorcerer-Monarch and the Champion of Rajaat templates. Here's the links to both pages:
Sorcerer-Monarch template
Champion of Rajaat template (revised)
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
[...]these champions never had the ability to grant templar spells, for the magic that attracted the living vortices came form the completion of Borys's rebellion and full transformation into a dragon.
I never liked that part and was appaled reading it, since I finished all DS books without seeing it, and discovered it reading the Timeline. Still don't know if it originated from TSR staff or from Denning's books.
If you remove this phrase in bold from the Timeline:
164th King's Age (2,002)
-Friend's Contemplation
Hamanu, replaced 4th Champion of Rajaat, kills Windreaver-the last troll of Athas and king of his people.
-Desert Vengeance
[...]
Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells.
[...]
Then Timeline could read like this:
144th King's Age (-3,542)
-Priest's Contemplation
Rajaat sends all but a few of his students away. Using the power of the Pristine Tower and the mysterious Dark Lens Rajaat creates his Champions. The creation process links them to the Dark Lens which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells. Each Champion is ordered to eliminate one specific race from the face of Athas in an effort to bring about the return of the Blue Age. The Cleansing Wars begin.
That way, the champions can have templars before they ever became SMs. And stating that the connection is with the Dark Lens is respectful of both parties:
- those that like for the ability to come from the conncetion with the Dark Lens
- and those that like for the ability to come from their attraction of an elemental vortice
By stating that the connection is with the Lens dosn't specify *how* the Lens provides that energy. Its a more general statement.
Originally posted by Kamelion
I also never liked the ease with which the Heartwood Spear killed him.
If the DS artifacts can be more than just converted, I mean actually changed, then the Spear could be made more vivious and capable of kiling a SK. And wasn't the Spear *specifically* made to kill Kalak? That sounds to me like an epic Bane or similar magic. Also a form of epic poisonning that would slowly kill Kalak from the moment he's first hit in the arena?
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I currently have the Champions being able to grant spells by virtue of them being champions, but am going to adjust it and explain that the ability is something that Borys added (even if I still *love* the idea of Champions using Templars in their wars, as healers/commanders). If I separate the parts that deal with templars all together from the Champion template, and make another template (maybe.... "Sorcerer-Monarch"), then yea, Kalak could be explained like Shei-Nad does using my system.
Does officials at athas.org know if the Timeline (who was never published, but was *released* to the community) can be modified by athas.org or is it inviolate?
This is nearly turning in its on thread...
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I was thinking - by tying the "Sorcerer-Monarch" template with Borys, it would also help make sense how Borys could have legitimately promised to make Tithian a Sorcerer-King in PP (like Kalak was), after he found the Dark Lens, of course.
Well, I've broken up the Sorcerer-Monarch and the Champion of Rajaat templates.
Well...I don't like the idea, but I'm also happy its finally availlable to the fans of the community, since a good part of the fan base prefer that option.
A suggestion: could you make both versions avillable on your site? The original Champion template, plus the modified one and the Sorcerer-Monarch template?
That would be awsome... :D
P.S. If you prefer not to, then can you send me the old Champion template? Pleasssseeeeee...
Problem: its printed. If someone's interested I can pay someone (it's relatively cheap) to type it and then email it to the fans.
The story I have is the first 3 chapters of the fall of Bodach, about 12 pages: its well written, very cannon, very Lyne Abbey.
It has a few glitches, like the author had not made for himself a list of synonyms for Irikos, so he refers to him virtually always as the Left-Hand of Rajaat or the Champion of Rajaat. Very anoying.
The other text is the History of Bodach, about 8 pages, and is part of a larger project named:
Dark Sun Net Project: The City of Bodach.
Lawkeeper's Efkenu's website got shot down a few years ago, too bad. I wonder what happened to the guy.
I would PAY to read the other chapters, if there are any. ;)
Anyone else remember reading that?
Kalak was never a Champion.
He was part of Borys' rebellion against Rajaat.
He was present at the time when Borys granted the rest of the Champions access to the vortices.
This started me thinking that there must have been some kind of relationship between Kalak and Borys. The other SKs were up front with showing their hatred of Kalak in the Cerulean Storm novel. The question is, what was the nature of that relationship? If Kalak were simply a potent general under the Champion Irikos, what of other generals that the Champions would have had? How 'unique' was Kalak's case? Was Kalak a power peer of the Champions before the beginings of their transformations? Sorry, just some musings inspired by your article.
Originally posted by Irikos
Very nice work Nytcrawlr, I like your version a great deal.
Danke.
Wait till you see what I have planned next.
I have to agree with Pennarin on the issue of Elemental Vortices. They always felt a bit contrived. I personally like Lynn Abbeys take on things in regards to how Champions worked. I see the ability to grant spells to followers as an ability imbued by Rajaat with the Dark Lens.
While I don't have a problem with this, I do have a problem with them having templars before Borys works his magic, mainly since it breaks most, if not all of canon, and would make the act in and of itself useless (what Borys did to make them able to grant spells to templars).
Also, Dregoth was already immortal when Rajaat made him a Champion in RaFoaDK. His high priest Mon Aderath(sp?) is also immortal. So being a Champion is not an essential piece of Athasian immortality, IMO.
I agree, I think Kalak was immortal, and he doesn't, or shouldn't at least have the champion template.
There are other ways to become immortal, but the champion template should grant it as well. If you happen to be immortal before this then so be it.
Of course I know Lynns work is considered borderline, I think it makes the setting a bit more copasetic.
Actually Troy has been caught on record to say that out of all the other authors that wrote DS books, Lynn was the truest form.
In my own version of Athas, Irikos was not killed although his body was destroyed. His essence is imprisoned somewhere in Bodach by the hysterical magic the preservers used in a panic of a Champion coming to town. A magic which also corrupted the city itself and caused an undead plague.
I've got something similar planned, but I kinda like your idea as weell. More to ponder, tis a good thing.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Between your article Nyt, along with some of the comments posted here (and mind you, I'm doing a full 180 here since I was always in favor of Kalak being a Champion):
Muwhahaha, another one I have converted. :D
Kalak was never a Champion.
He was part of Borys' rebellion against Rajaat.
He was present at the time when Borys granted the rest of the Champions access to the vortices.]
Yeah, I'm going to go with the Borys + Kalak connection. Since I made Kalak a Rajaat reject, it makes sense that he would still be bitter and would want a piece of the action when it came down to taking Rajaat down. He only helped Irikos because he wanted Tyr, which would give him a good solid base of operations to work from.
Once Kalak found out what Borys planned for Rajaat after Manu (Hammanu) squealed, he was more than ready to jump to the cause. In gratitude for his help, Borys gives him the ability to grant his templars spells, which helps him keep a firmer hold on Tyr while he does his research for becoming a Dragon, etc.
Good ideas all around.
This started me thinking that there must have been some kind of relationship between Kalak and Borys. The other SKs were up front with showing their hatred of Kalak in the Cerulean Storm novel.
I vaguely remember this, if this is correct then it just works out more in my view's favor.
The question is, what was the nature of that relationship? If Kalak were simply a potent general under the Champion Irikos, what of other generals that the Champions would have had? How 'unique' was Kalak's case? Was Kalak a power peer of the Champions before the beginings of their transformations? Sorry, just some musings inspired by your article.
I don't think Kalak was unique, there could have been others, Kalak was just the successful one out of the bunch.
I'm sticking with my idea that he was one of the many let go when it came down to Rajaat picking his champions. He was of course a little bitter about this, and being the old, wisee, and cunning person that he is, it would make sense that he saw a unique and profitiable (for him anyways) oppourtunity that he could not pass up. So he appealed to Irikos's need to be teacher's pet and help him take out his specified enemy race so they would have an easier time of it and get it over with. Once that was done he required help to take over Tyr, which Irikos was more than willing to help with. The rest is history.
:D
Originally posted by Pennarin
Speaking of Irikos, I have in my possession the writings of Lawkeeper's Efkenu from his old website.
Problem: its printed. If someone's interested I can pay someone (it's relatively cheap) to type it and then email it to the fans.
If you would like to send me a (good) photocopy of that via snail-mail I can ocr the text into an electronic file and post that - much easier than all that boring typing
The photocopies will go to Nyt bacause he's the closest geographically to me and he'll post it on his web site.
If you know how to contact the person behind Efkenu, now would be a good time to let Nyt know so he can put up decent credits for the work.
Tnxs
Enjoy.
Or perhaps he was a really powerful defiler / psion... located the dark lens, and used it himself to transform himself into an immortal... i mean, he's shown the capacity to research dragon magic without outside assistance - and an accelerated version at that. Perhaps he's done this type of thing before: cheating to get power, except the second time it back-fired.
As for Hammanu's attitude towards him:
The reason Hammanu acts like this is because, Hammanu, himself, is also a "replacement" champion, and it's a little closer to the bone. Because he rules a larger city, but has no iron, but is personally more powerful... all these things play on hammanu's mind and lead to his dismissive attitude: overcompensation for his own short-fallings.
Originally posted by Jaanos
Kalak was Champion... no doubt about it, otherwise he wouldn't have been linked to the elemental vortex. However, it is possible that he acquired this status as a champion through being in the right time in the right place, taking some-one elses place.
Champion doesn't mean they are attached to Elemental Vortex. This is actually explained quite well in Nyt's article. It's also covered in my Champion of Rajaat and Sorcerer-Monarch templates I did up. Basically, the idea is Kalak was rejected by Rajaat for being a Champion. He becomes an important part of Irikos' army, and even ends up "replacing" Irikos when he dies, and I think Irikos already completed his task (keel da Oggies), which as that's the case, Rajaat never made Kalak into a Champion. He also gains the favor of Borys, so when the revolt happens, he's present, and Borys grants him the same connection to the Elemental Vortices - thus he can grant spells, but wasn't ever a "real" Champion.
Or perhaps he was a really powerful defiler / psion... located the dark lens, and used it himself to transform himself into an immortal... i mean, he's shown the capacity to research dragon magic without outside assistance - and an accelerated version at that. Perhaps he's done this type of thing before: cheating to get power, except the second time it back-fired.
You don't need the Dark Lens to become an immortal. Once again, for reference: Dragon does not mean Sorcerer-Monarch or Champion of Rajaat. You could have a Dragon who isn't a Sorcerer-Monarch or a Champion, you could have a Champion who isn't a Dragon or a Sorcerer-Monarch, and you could even have a Sorcerer-Monarch who isn't a Dragon or a Champion (in theory). He could have advanced himself into the Dragon metamorphosis, and thus (in both the 2e version, and my own version) he becomes immortal.
As for Hammanu's attitude towards him:
The reason Hammanu acts like this is because, Hammanu, himself, is also a "replacement" champion, and it's a little closer to the bone. Because he rules a larger city, but has no iron, but is personally more powerful... all these things play on hammanu's mind and lead to his dismissive attitude: overcompensation for his own short-fallings.
Hamanu, however, is a special type of Champion. he recieved a different template (using game terms) than the other Champions. further, I believe he is automatically progressing in the Dragon Metamorphosis, whether he wants to or not, and might believe the others are as well (the Champions don't really chat much...) He was made to wipe out the Humans, and probably any other race besides Halflings that still remained and were a threat to Rajaat's plans. He also was made to destroy the other Champions - even Prism Pentad notes that he is really quite different from the other Champions. If I recall, the Scourge didn't really even tickle him... Weapons made to kill Champions (and Dragons) don't have the same effect on him, among other little differences.
The arguements against Kalak being a Champion umm.... well they are covered throughout a few threads, this one being a good start. Yes, the Wanderer's Chronicle has him as a Champion, but other material also has many other discrepencies. Somewhere, along the way, you have to do something about the errors and discrepencies in the material, one way or another. Nyt is covering a couple of them with his text - Kalak being easily killed by a group of mid-to-low level characters and the Irikos dilemmas.
Regardless, my take on the PP series, and the cannon material (TSR Books) is that Kalak was a champion, HOW he became one is the interesting part, and the only part open to debate INMHO.
Now, the whole Irikos thing is interesting, and hey, i like it alot, but it doesn't change the fact that Kalak was a champion. He's like Hammanu, a replacement. HOW he became a replacement is what intrigues me, and you know what? the whole concept of him assisting Irikos, getting a little army is a good concept, but take it a step fowards in a logical direction: Irikos is destroyed, but Kalak manages to avoid a complete routing of the troops, as a result, Rajaat re-considers Kalak, and offers him a shot at championhood if finishes the job (elinating the Orges for example, or the presever stronghold, whatever).
Kalak takes the opportunity, succeeds, Rajaat keeps his promise and VOILA! it all makes sense, and you have Kalak a champion as per cannon material, and smooth over the discprencies.
Now isn't that just peachy?
Originally posted by Jaanos
Now, the whole Irikos thing is interesting, and hey, i like it alot, but it doesn't change the fact that Kalak was a champion. He's like Hammanu, a replacement. HOW he became a replacement is what intrigues me, and you know what? the whole concept of him assisting Irikos, getting a little army is a good concept, but take it a step fowards in a logical direction: Irikos is destroyed, but Kalak manages to avoid a complete routing of the troops, as a result, Rajaat re-considers Kalak, and offers him a shot at championhood if finishes the job (elinating the Orges for example, or the presever stronghold, whatever).
Kalak takes the opportunity, succeeds, Rajaat keeps his promise and VOILA! it all makes sense, and you have Kalak a champion as per cannon material, and smooth over the discprencies.
Now isn't that just peachy?
Very sweet
Nice one.Hamanu seems to state that he was not in Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. Also, Kalak seems to be percieved by many as a powerful human sorcerer-king, but not a dragon king. (and I think there is actually some source material that stated that Kalak was not a dragon king before he attempted the transformation, though the book Dragon Kings seems to imply otherwise by stating Kalak tried to go from 21st to 30th level dragon at once). Also, Nyt's version does give a good background to Irikos, and does an interesting plot twist for Kalak's character. It also gives him reason to seek a different approach to dragonhood.
Anyways, its still a matter of personnal preference. TSR contradicted themselves in a few occasions anyways (See Psionic Artifacts of Athas), so taking the Wanderer's Chronicle as a ''canon'' source is doubious at best...
But hey, its your world, do with it as you wish...
These recent Champion Brainstorming sessions have thrown up some excellent ideas all round. None of the characters in my last DS campaign survived long enough to get anywhere near any of this stuff so I'm really enjoying cherry-picking for the homebrew this time around...
Originally posted by Jaanos
Regardless, my take on the PP series, and the cannon material (TSR Books) is that Kalak was a champion, HOW he became one is the interesting part, and the only part open to debate INMHO.
That's your opinion.
What I have presented in my articles section is *my* take on things the way I see it and the way it will be presented in *my* campaign, i.e. it's not official.
So simmer down some and take it as such, if you like it great, if you don't, no one is holding a gun to your head to use it.
As far as cannon is concerned, *any* Dark Sun material printed, is canon in my eyes, whether that's all the novels, all the polyhedrons, dragons, dungeons, modules, accessories, whatever.
Taking this into consideration, this is exactly why I did what I did with the whole Kalak vs. Irikos thing.
Now, the whole Irikos thing is interesting, and hey, i like it alot, but it doesn't change the fact that Kalak was a champion. He's like Hammanu, a replacement.
Where in any *canon* material that is out there, i.e. all Dark Sun material published, does it say that Kalak was a replacement?
I don't recall that anywhere, so please refresh my memory.
Now isn't that just peachy?
For your campaign sure.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
The whole Champion/Sorcerer-Monarch/Advanced Being writeup I've been doing is because.... my campaigns usually end up pitting the group against such monsters eventually. As such, I wanted to codify them, so I'm noy pulling it all out of my.....hat on the fly (which I usually do, but come around epic things, and that's not as easy as other encounters are).
So far you are doing a great job and I like what you are coming up with. Wouldn't mind seeing it go official with some tweaks of course.
Also, doing epic stuff is not easy at all, I'm about to undertake it myself, so kudos to you for the hard work, and hopefully I won't botch mine up to much.
However, that campaign did reveal a lot about the whole epic gaming environment. The previous campaign I had which got to epic levels was a Dark Sun campaign with a Half-Elf PsyWar & Thri-Kreen Ranger. I really got a good idea about how balanced the Thri-Kreen was against a 2-armed species in that campaign, and was pleasantly surprised (4 1-handed weapon attacks from the Thri-Kreen for each single 2-handed weapon attack from the Half-Elf, actually came out to roughly doing the same amount of damage each round, plus, the two of them could hold their own about equally well in any situation. That campaign went into epic levels, but with the lack of DS material I had at the time (converted to 3E) it kinda petered off to nothing.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Epic campaigns actually increase, almost exponentially, in complexity every level above 20 you go. Especially with so *few* creatures that are written up which are actually "threats" or "challenges" to such characters. My Epic Wizard campaign (of which it started out by all the players choosing a planetouched race, and then making a wizard or sorcerer-class character, then wandered through the planes presented in Manual of the Planes past the level 20 threshold). It became excruciatingly obvious that a group of 4 spellcasters, if given time to prepare for a fight, are pretty much unstoppable, and can finish most of their battles within 1-3 rounds. When we stopped, they were in the Far Realms, and had before that killed 5 Abominations, as well as 2 Lesser Deities....
Agreed.
My first and last (last as in last campaign, not last as in the only epic campaign I will ever run) epic campaign proved that. I had increasing difficulty, and the fact that one of them was a min/maxer from hell didn't help.
Basically I had to write every encounter as an NPC, whether it was a monster or not. Had to adjust every, and I do mean every, encounter to the group, at least once they hit 21st level on up.
I just didn't have the time for this during that period of my life so I gave it up, that and I'm also seeking at least two new players because I need a change of pace.
Anyways, the next time I run anything epic I want to have a 2nd DM that just makes up and runs encounters that fit the adventures I create, that way I can focus more on storytelling and all that other fluff, which I enjoy more than just running monsters at the PCs.
Wish I had the talents of the 2nd DM I played under who had the ability to run 1-1 HD creatures at a group of 4 or 5 5th level characters in 2nd ed and still give us a run for our money.
As Xlor pointed out, this has been discussed on a few boards and my friend Nyt has made a very admirable attempt to bring all the various "Kalak reports" into alignment.
I think there's another solution:
Irikos' champion status, or what he was responsible for slaying, is not mentioned in the timeline. It's even possible that he was Rajaat's "wetwork" man, taking out human civilizations that stood in the way. In this explanation, there would not even need to be a new race for him to annihilate. Maybe not all of the Champions were charged with removing a race? Possibly one or two, or most, were simply generals in a war for world domination?
Anyways, on to the meat (I need to catch a bus, so this will be quick):
Book of Artifacts was not a DS book and was not written by the DS boys. I'm guessing that Irikos was added to the timeline after this book was written or that the TSR guys went to the DS guys and said: "We need a big baddy from your world." Since all the big baddies were wrapped up in plots, the DS guys probably looked at their history and said: "Here, take this one: he died so you can't screw it up too badly." Oops.
Rise and Fall was written at a chaotic time in DS (and TSR) world, and no one was telling Lynn Abbey much of anything. Guess she took matters into her own hands and only added to the confusion (with a well-written book, by the way). I'm guessing that if things were a little less chaotic in those times, Kalak would still be a champion.
Regardless, in books that are undeniably canon (Wanderer's Chronical - most up to date source), Kalak is listed as the Ogre Doom and a Champion. Plot by Rajaat to discredit Irikos? Possibly, but I think it's just more likely that some writers just didn't research it enough.
That's my 2cps.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
[snip]
Regardless, in books that are undeniably canon (Wanderer's Chronical - most up to date source), Kalak is listed as the Ogre Doom and a Champion. Plot by Rajaat to discredit Irikos? Possibly, but I think it's just more likely that some writers just didn't research it enough.
Oh, overall I'm sure this is the real reason. I just don't like how easily Kalak was killed in the first book and then how much more difficult it was to kill the other SMs in the last book, especially since the heroes were higher level then. So I took my biased opinion towards Kalak and made it work in order to use in my own campaigns.
Did Troy already have Irikos worked up as the true champion of the Ogres and Kalak just as a patsy that got lucky? Doubtful.
Is it all a bunch of contradictions based on not getting the right information when it came time to writing the fluff? More probable, but again, I wanted to take that and make it work out to my favor for my campaign/world/My Athas, so I did, and did a damn good job judging by the compliments.
Nothing wrong with multiple options IMO.
:D
My 2cps.
My solution is - we can agree to disagree. Some think Kalak is a Champion, some don't. Some think Irikos is a Champion, while others don't. Such things happen when the campaign setting is rather mixed up like Dark Sun - the DS1 and DS2 boxed sets don't even really make sense of each other. It's things like this that resulted in WotC making many of the sweeping changes they did to Forgotten Realms - the inconsistancies from TSR were..... frustrating. It would be nice to have a single, solidified set of "what is" and "what isn't" valid in Dark Sun, something that helps correct the errors.
This has been sort of what I've been striving for - a road map, of sorts, that makes sense of the senseless. A single, non-contradictory set of facts for Dark Sun to build the setting on. Unfortunately, in many respects, no two books released for Dark Sun completely mesh, and as such, making references from one book to show the falacy of another one is inherently flawed. But, someone must start somewhere, right? We don't argue over the parts that aren't in question, that aren't disputed from source to source. We tend to argue the parts that have these discrepencies, and then argue over which is the "correct" and which is the "mistake".
if melka's timeline (which dosen't give irikos a title of champion of crap) means so much to everybody... then how can you rule out what he wrote in PAoA (irikos dies... cleansing wars begin...)?
just some more fuel...
*FIGHT!*
:fight!:
[edit: Oh, Xlor, this bit:
This has been sort of what I've been striving for - a road map, of sorts, that makes sense of the senseless. A single, non-contradictory set of facts for Dark Sun to build the setting on. Unfortunately, in many respects, no two books released for Dark Sun completely mesh, and as such, making references from one book to show the falacy of another one is inherently flawed. But, someone must start somewhere, right? We don't argue over the parts that aren't in question, that aren't disputed from source to source. We tend to argue the parts that have these discrepencies, and then argue over which is the "correct" and which is the "mistake".
I absolutely agree with. I think someone, Athas.org, me, you, anyone, needs to step up and make a "This is what happened" piece. Of course, if we can't even agree on whether Irikos was a champion or not, or whether Kalak was an SK (both are accurate statements, in my opinion), how the hell are we going to agree on everything? Good idea, but I just don't think it would work. That's kind of what these boards are for: everyone tosses out their ideas and takes what they like and leaves behind what they don't. There may never be anything official, but if I argue long enough, you all will give up and go home, thus meaning I am "Right." At least, that's what my president says...]
Originally posted by kefka
did anybody notice that irikos was dead before the cleansing wars began?
if melka's timeline (which dosen't give irikos a title of champion of crap) means so much to everybody... then how can you rule out what he wrote in PAoA (irikos dies... cleansing wars begin...)?
In the actual timeline he is quite alive when the Cleansing Wars begin, so I'm just ignoring the PAoA part, which is my perogative.
:D
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
There may never be anything official, but if I argue long enough, you all will give up and go home, thus meaning I am "Right." At least, that's what my president says...]
That's why you should never stop arguing with the president. ;)
Especially one that is obviously a chimp in disguise like our current one.
"oooh, wa ah ah ah ah!"
:D
nobody is right until jon steps in and caps all the idiots with lightning bolts
or flip thumps some skullsuh... can i ready a counterspell... i might have one coming too
Cotton candy, dwelfs, and space hamsters oh my!
Never, ever stop bashing, it would be a waste of such talent! :D
I suppose I should throw a DS comment in here somewhere:
I still say that Irikos was a non-magical champion of Rajaat. Undoubtably, Rajaat gave him loads of magical items (the Silencer comes to mind) to keep him alive as long as possible, but I think Rajaat did not truly trust him more magically-gifted champions, so his "right hand" would likely be someone who not only never would challenge Rajaat, but never could.
irikos was probably a name that they handed out to david cook to write the BoA with I'll bet that irikos was going to be the champ that destroyed the orks, but he died in the preserver wars at Bodach (btw, where was Wyan when his home city was being sacked... i think he killed irikos (think about how much sacha and wyan fawned after rajaats attention... and neither of them were either "hand"... maybe they were his "feet")) then rajaat scooped up some chick from the closest island (waverly) and tada, abalach-re is born and entrusted with irikos's job
mmmm candy
/cast detect poison on "purple" cotton candy
cause i know nyt would feed me some vile chitlins, if he could
The writeup I plan will have most of his spells and powers augmenting himself and not affecting others though.
Originally posted by kefka
irikos was probably a name that they handed out to david cook to write the BoA with I'll bet that irikos was going to be the champ that destroyed the orks, but he died in the preserver wars at Bodach
Except that he succeeded in taking out the orcs, *then* died when he took on Bodach.
Yeah, yeah, I know PAoA says otherwise, but I'm ignoring that because I still refuse to believe that Rajaat would give one of his three swords to a non-champion.
(btw, where was Wyan when his home city was being sacked
Good question, though I could see Wyan helping, at least with killing all the preservers part.
/cast detect poison on "purple" cotton candy
cause i know nyt would feed me some vile chitlins, if he could
Nah, I wouldn't do a thing like that.
I'd poison the drink you use to wash it down with.
Mwuahahaha
Irikos was a defiler? I say that was a lie spread by the smurfs.
I have proof, but can't share: the smurfs would kills me.
:D
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I still say that Irikos was a non-magical champion of Rajaat. Undoubtably, Rajaat gave him loads of magical items (the Silencer comes to mind) to keep him alive as long as possible, but I think Rajaat did not truly trust him more magically-gifted champions, so his "right hand" would likely be someone who not only never would challenge Rajaat, but never could.
Except that the "official" timeline says differently.
I came up with a wandering NPC on they fly during a nasty 'the players can't take a hint' to try and steer things on track. Described him as an old, balding with black hair man in a tattered black peasant robe with a frisky cat at his side. I hadn't thought much about it until, after repeating the description one of the players asked the man if his cat's name was Azreal. Its become a running joke throughout several campaigns now . . .
Anhow, back to the T.A.H.
btw, where was Wyan when his home city was being sacked... i think he killed irikos
This would be interesting. Perhaps Wyan was there to assist or cooperate with the sack of Bodach, since he would have been a very sound tactical choice for the campaign. It would also further affirm his status as a complete devotee of Rajaat, going so far as to destroy his own home in the name of his master. Whether or not he had anything to do with killing Irikos would be open to speculation (though it would make for an interesting brain storm in itself), but he could have been instrumental in keeping the Warbringer's armies functioning cohesively after Irikos' defeat in order to finish the job of laying Bodach to waste.
I didn't say it was from cannon, like you it was *my* intepretation that i *may* use in *my* own session. How did this all start? oh yeah, someone wrote a really groovy peice about Kalak and Irikos and thier take (re-write) of the history was that Kalak wasn't a champion. Bugger, he is, and cannon material say so. Damn, can't re-write it like that then. Oh well, you could still have Kalak somehow replacing Irikos and still being a champion, as discussed.
Love these firey exchanges, good for the digestive system!
In all seriousness, i didn't mean to offend anyone's work, just keep in perspective that the only verbal 'tone' writing has is what YOU the reader read into it.Back to the subject, as i've said before, i'm a sticker for the cannon material, oddities and all. I'm not opposed to a modernisation of them by anymeans, let's just 'keep it real' and true to the original, and, maybe we differ on this, ironing out the oddities and conflicts in 2e is something that has to been done carefully. on the balance of evidence in the books, modules and so forth, i come to the conclusion that Kalak was a champion of Rajaat. How he got that status is, i think, the only thing you can consider re-writing regardless of what Hamanu might have said in RAFOADK. It's in the cannon that he was a champion, you can still have irikos as one as well without going to the extent of altering cannon to suit your own interpretation.
Anyway, back to work i go...
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
That's your opinion.
So simmer down some and take it as such, if you like it great, if you don't, no one is holding a gun to your head to use it.
As far as cannon is concerned, *any* Dark Sun material printed, is canon in my eyes, whether that's all the novels, all the polyhedrons, dragons, dungeons, modules, accessories, whatever.
Where in any *canon* material that is out there, i.e. all Dark Sun material published, does it say that Kalak was a replacement?
Originally posted by Jaanos
Simmer down yourself you history-rewriting freak
How DARE you talk to me like that without giving me some cotton candy first!
How did this all start? oh yeah, someone wrote a really groovy peice about Kalak and Irikos and thier take (re-write) of the history was that Kalak wasn't a champion.
Danke.
Bugger, he is, and cannon material say so. Damn, can't re-write it like that then. Oh well, you could still have Kalak somehow replacing Irikos and still being a champion, as discussed.
What if canon was based upon incomplete information?
What if Kalak was rewritten into history as a champion, and Irikos was forgotten because he was a dissapointment, both of which I've already covered in my article. ;)
Also, who says canon can't be rewritten? Are the canon overlords going to come hunt me down and beat me with a big stick till I yell uncle and no longer break canon?
What happen to the golden rule of the DM can use what he wants, and disregard the rest, or can just rewrite as he sees fit?
Love these firey exchanges, good for the digestive system!
/me belches
In all seriousness, i didn't mean to offend anyone's work, just keep in perspective that the only verbal 'tone' writing has is what YOU the reader read into it.
Agreed.
Overall though, and I don't like to toot my own horn, I think I did a damn good job, as well as those that helped me by pointing a few things out here and there.
So far you and some freak at [email]squidfur@aol.com[/email] are the only ones having a major issue with this and think I can do better.
While I enjoy the compliment I am sorry to dissappoint by saying that I'm going to be sticking to what I have now.
Like I said in my article, do with it as you like, tear it apart and rework it to your fashion, use as is, print it out and use it as toilet paper. It's all good either way.
:D
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Is Secrets of the Deadlands cannon (sic) material?
Short answer, yes. It's new canon material. By athas.org.
Such new material is great because it will be made by people who work within the contradictions of the DS setting, as opposed to without, i.e. ignoring them. So the products will be more enjoyable to all.
I guess they'll have to to something about the Neksos, the new Champion mentionned in SotDL. He was set to annihilate the race of dwarves, if I read correctly. That raises a lot of questions, such as was Borys a replacement? (Abbey said as such in RaFoaDK).
Should a future release of the Timeline cover this personnage?
Edit: oops...I thought Shei-Nad meant TotDL. SotDL is an old unreleased TSR product. My mistake :embarrass
Required to make a point to Jaanos. Nyt probably gets it already...
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
So far you and some freak at [email]squidfur@aol.com[/email] are the only ones having a major issue with this and think I can do better.
Want to read something really freaky? that will make your every facial muscle twitch from hidden subconcious urges to kill yourself if you're ever assimilated by an alien species?
Read this: History of Athaspace
So far you and some freak at [email]squidfur@aol.com[/email] are the only ones having a major issue with this and think I can do better.
Squidfur happened to review City-State of Draj, and he gave us some good feedback. We need 'freaks' like him - DS fanatics that is.
Can I have another official confirmation of this (by a member of athas.org would be nice)
Secrets of the Deadlands will be an official campaign expansion once it is released.
nobody is right until jon steps in and caps all the idiots with lightning bolts or flip thumps some skulls
DO Lbolt until IDIOT = 0
IF IDIOT = 0; RIGHT
(or something, I'm not a programmer). Is everyone right now?
Bad Pennarin! No Cookie!
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Bad Pennarin! No Cookie!
I...I...bu..it was just...
-shoulders drop-
Alright, in the future I'll put a disclaimer before posting disturbing material on these boards. :D
But it is true that these boards should be about acceptance of others's ideas, or at least consideration of said ideas. If not, then what would we all be doing here?
I was just saying that I really had facial muscles twitch from an hidden subconcious urge to kill myself,...is all.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Squidfur happened to review City-State of Draj, and he gave us some good feedback. We need 'freaks' like him - DS fanatics that is.
Well yeah, didn't say he was a bad freak, heh.
Hell, I'm a freak! LOL
Originally posted by Pennarin
I was just saying that I really had facial muscles twitch from an hidden subconcious urge to kill myself,...is all.
Don't say that, we need DS freaks like you. :D
Speaking of freaks, I wonder how Grummore is doing, I should email him.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
DO Lbolt until IDIOT = 0
IF IDIOT = 0; RIGHT
(or something, I'm not a programmer). Is everyone right now?
void boltFromTheBlue( int idiot) {
for( int counter=idiot; counter > 0; counter--) zapIdiot();
}
is probably more along the lines of what you are looking for....
...and yes, I think, eat, breate and sleep programming code. It's sad, really. I could show you the same thing in probably a dozen other languages....
I was just saying that I really had facial muscles twitch from an hidden subconcious urge to kill myself,...is all.
*Shudder* Don't post something like that again, Pennarin. I got the same urge.
nobody is right until jon steps in and caps all the idiots with lightning bolts or flip thumps some skulls
*look around carefully* Hehe. Nobody noticed that I, being a lightning Pokémon, am invincible...INVINCIBLE! [ah! my leg!]
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Secrets of the Deadlands will be an official campaign expansion once it is released.
Thank you, mighty Oracle.
Now:
Cannon (sic) material of the Wanderer's Chronicle stated that the dead lands were created by a magical accident which cause obsidian to flow, cover some buildings and cities, and transformed trees into obsidian.
Cannon (sic) material of Secrets of the Dead Lands also states (stated too, since the following is not even from athas.org apparently) that the dead lands were created by a magical accident which opened a gate to the paraelemental plane of magma, causing magma to flow, later crystallizing as obsidian. Trees and buildings were unnaffected.
Point is:
Dark Sun material contradicts itself more than once. Thri and thor kreen also vary slightly depending on if you use the campaign setting, the monstrous manual or the thri-kreen of athas supplement.
In the case of Kalak/Irikos championhood, the WC, PAoA and RaFoaDK contradict themselves. The version set up by Nyt does a very good job of clearing it up.
Anyways, do what you will, but cannon (I really think its canon) material is difficult to establish with this setting...
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
In the case of Kalak/Irikos championhood, the WC, PAoA and RaFoaDK contradict themselves. The version set up by Nyt does a very good job of clearing it up.
Danke very much.
Anyways, do what you will, but cannon (I really think its canon) material is difficult to establish with this setting...
Amen!
Originally posted by kefka
nobody is right until jon steps in and caps all the idiots with lightning bolts
1) I tend to have an opinion that material from Athas' history is fuzzy and should remain so, as to not totally destroy certain thematic elements. Granted, DS2 and the WC did a lot of damage to those elements anyway.
2) There are different degrees of Cannon. Some sources take precidence over others. That's just the way it is.
3) I've said this before and it looks like I might have to say it again:
The only evidence that you have for the claim that Kalak was not a champion is second hand.
There are different types of sources at work. You've got your primary sources, which are from your cannonical novels or source books, and are statements of fact. There is a huge difference between a novel's statement of fact and a character's statement of fact.
To illustrate:
(statement of fact): During the green age, the sky was mauve.
(character's statement of fact (claim)): Hamanu said, "When I was a child, the sky was a brilliant shade of mauve, which offset my kingly mane so nicely. Not like this olive crap we have to deal with now. It makes me look all sickly."
Now, the first, lacking other contradictions, must be taken as reality.
The second, even without contradictions, can only be taken as one character's statement of what reality was like. It comes from a character, and is filtered through that character's goals, motiviations, history, prejudices, and yea, even failing memory.
If there is a contradiction between two statements of fact, then that conflict needs a resolution. Only one statement of fact can be right.
If there is a contradiction between two claims, than ... it's simply that. Two characters are claiming different things happened. That doesn't mean that one is right and the other is lying -- they could both be wrong, or (remember, filters) that both are telling what they see as the truth. However, lacking another primary source, conflicting claims are not something that I belive should be resolved officially.
Remember that nearly all we know of the history of the setting comes from the claims of various characters -- most of whom were involved in the events, and have a vested interest in seeing that particular parts of the story are not told, or told in a particular way. The only, only, known written primary source (in character) that anybody has on the history of Athas was the Book of Kemalok Kings ... and Rikus let that get trashed.
And, our third option comes in where a claim contradicts a stated fact. Which is, in fact, what we are facing against here. It is a stated fact that Kalak was a champion of Rajaat, the Ogre Doom. It is a claim that he was, in fact, not a champion.
In these cases, the stated fact takes priority. Kalak is a Champion of Rajaat.
However, we may choose to accept all or part of the claim as reality, and thus explicitly invalidate the stated fact. We at athas.org may choose to make it official that Kalak was not a champion, if we feel that it enhances the setting.
We have not yet done so, and I don't know that we are likely to do so. We've been trying to resolve contradictions within the source material, not create new ones. However, if we do choose to make it so, such a statement will be made openly, and the contradictions made clear.
, Flip,
your post is not only greatly explaining athasian "History" and its novel-based "facts", I also enjoyed reading it because it not only applies for Athas.
Fact: Most of the champions were either killed by Rajaat, artifacts made by Rajaat, or other champions.
Fact: Kalak was not only killed by non-champions, but mid to high level non-champions at that.
Fact: Not only was Kalak killed by non-champions, but he was also killed by a artifact that wasn't made by Rajaat.
Sorry, but I'm not willing to just ignore these facts because they are convenient.
Like I stated before, their are differences in the description of facts about what created the deadlands between the Wanderer's Chronicle and Secrets of the Deadlands.
For Kalak's championhood, the mentions of Psionic Artifacts of Athas brings some questions by having Irikos be of the champions, amongst his favorite, and assigned to destroy the same race as Kalak in WC.
But anyways, the point is, if we are to take the Wanderer's Chronicle as a statement of fact, then their is not much to work with:
Today, only a handful of the original Champions remain active in the world. All of them are described below.
That's the last sentences of the opening paragraph of the the descriptions of the Champions of Rajaat. That description describes only 16 champions, counting Myron, who fell long before the rebellion. The way its written, its pretty clear that the description is meant to describe all champions, not only those who survived to be Sorcerer-kings, since the description includes Myron (who never even came close to being one), Sacha and Wyan (who never were SKs), and other champions who are no longer active.
So, if this is fact, then not only is Kalak a champion, but Irikos, Pennarin, Neksos or others are not. I could really live with that though.
However, I'd point out 2 things:
1- I believe that there is another reference on Kalak's non championhood by RaFoaDK stating that it was Wyan and Sacha who provided the energy for Kalak's templar spells. Now, not having the novel, I don't know if that is one of the head's claims, or the author actually stating it.
2- I'm not sure why novels couldn't be taken has canon material, if they give good flavor to the settings. To me, a campaign setting isn't determined by the rulebooks. It's the other way around.
Fact: Kalak was not only killed by non-champions, but mid to high level non-champions at that.
Speculative, since, when a character is adapted into a novel, the author doesn't normally stat out the character and enemies, then conduct mock combat to see the numerical and statistical results. He tells the tale as it needs to be told for the purpose of the story. In-game, a 10th lvl fighter would sweep up a dozen or two kobolds without breaking a sweat (or likely even taking a single hit). In a novel, that same battle narrated 'by the numbers' would be the most boring piece of dribble, so you create challenging tension in the enounter. If it serves the purpose of the story for the lowly untrained squire to be the one to kill the dragon, then so be it. Its refered to as 'giving your character the ability to get the job done', and unfortunately, doesn't translate over into mechanics half as well as it should.
Sorry, just a personal peeve rant of mine.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
All that aside there are some facts that you are missing, or failing to accept one of the two.
Fact: Most of the champions were either killed by Rajaat, artifacts made by Rajaat, or other champions.
True.
Selbia was killed by Hamanu.
Dregoth was killed by a coalition of former Champions.
Sacha and Wayne ... well, they were reduced signifigantly before being killed by non-champions.
The SK of Kalinday ... wasn't killed, really ... just taken. Alternately, was killed by a flubbed transformation spell. Depends on "whose" version you take as official.
Fact: Kalak was not only killed by non-champions, but mid to high level non-champions at that.
Addressed by Mach. Rikus, Sadria and company were, as stated by Mach, not stated for their accomplishemnets in the PP. And I'm sorely tenmpted to make them epic characters, despite the writeups in CSoT.
Fact: Not only was Kalak killed by non-champions, but he was also killed by a artifact that wasn't made by Rajaat.
Ooooh. And I suppose then, that only one person is able to make really powerful rtifacts on Athas. So, basically, you are asserting that only a Rajaat created artifact should be able to have any kind of effect upon a champion, and that other artifacts should be generally ineffective against Champions. Depsite specifically being designed to take out said champion.
Sorry, don't buy it.
As an aside, I really, really, really dislike the tendancy to blame alll athasian ills on one psycotic madman in the past. Not everything boils back to Rajaat, and he is not the root of all evil on Athas.
Sorry, but I'm not willing to just ignore these facts because they are convenient.
I'm not ignoring them, but they simply have no real relevance.
Originally posted by flip
Rikus, Sadria and company were, as stated by Mach, not stated for their accomplishemnets in the PP. And I'm sorely tenmpted to make them epic characters, despite the writeups in CSoT.
Its not them that need to be made epic, its the lame Heartwood Spear that needs a revemp. An epic one.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
However, I'd point out 2 things:
1- I believe that there is another reference on Kalak's non championhood by RaFoaDK stating that it was Wyan and Sacha who provided the energy for Kalak's templar spells. Now, not having the novel, I don't know if that is one of the head's claims, or the author actally stating it.
2- I'm not sure why novels couldn't be taken has canon material, if they give good flavor to the settings. To me, a campaign setting isn't determined by the rulebooks. It's the other way around.
Not having had a chance to roam through the novel recently, I have to consider the pedigriee of the novel. Disclaimer: I am a fan of Lynn Abby's writing, ever since reading the original Theives World antholgies back in my larval stages. However, Lynn Abby's DS work cannot be taken as cannon overruling previously established material, because she had almost no communcitation with the DS team when writing. This is not hwer fault. But that doesn't make it any less disconnected. Where things contradict, previously established cannon takes precidence.
To address your second point ... what's taking precidence there is not so much the rules material, as the setting material. That is, the official material that set down "this is how the world is"
... Some people think Simon Hawke's ToO series is good. I don't see anyone suggesting that elves therefore should not be absolutely against the idea of riding kanks, despite all previous evidence. It's the same rationale, even if some don't want to see it that way.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Its not them that need to be made epic, its the lame Heartwood Spear that needs a revemp. An epic one.
Well, yes, that too. It needs to represent that it was a specifically designed and targeted weapon.
By the way, you're scary. You replied in the time it took me to write my second reply on this thread. :p
Originally posted by flip
By the way, you're scary. You replied in the time it took me to write my second reply on this thread. :p
As the Fourth French Champion...god I love that...my senses expand a mile in every direction, just imagine what it does on the net. :D
Oh, and I don't have a life...
Originally posted by flip
By the way, you're scary.
Originally posted by megamania
you are strange...don't take it wrong.
What does the future reserves for me...I wonder...
Originally posted by Pennarin
What does the future reserves for me...I wonder...
Chocolate pudding.
Lots and lots of chocolate pudding.
"I had the wierdest dream"
"Was it the one where you're sanding on top of a pyramid in sort of sun-god robes while thousands of naked women throw tiny pickles at you?"
"No"
"Why am I the only one who has this dream?"
Originally posted by flip
The SK of Kalinday ... wasn't killed, really ... just taken. Alternately, was killed by a flubbed transformation spell. Depends on "whose" version you take as official.
Not sure what you mean here.
Kalidnay was either taken to the Domain of Dread and remains in a coma and isn't transformed, or had his body destroyed by a combine effort of Kalak, Borys, and Hammnu while his mind was imprisoned in the obsidian spheres he used to transform himself into a full dragon.
Addressed by Mach. Rikus, Sadria and company were, as stated by Mach, not stated for their accomplishemnets in the PP. And I'm sorely tenmpted to make them epic characters, despite the writeups in CSoT.
Ok, cool. That at least kills my problem with that on an official level.
Reworking the heartwood spear to where it is designed solely to take out Kalak and be a stronger artifact like you said later also helps and works for me.
Regardless my biased towards Kalak will remain, the difference is that biased opinion will only be reflected in my campaigns or whomever else wants to follow my madness.
Ooooh. And I suppose then, that only one person is able to make really powerful rtifacts on Athas. So, basically, you are asserting that only a Rajaat created artifact should be able to have any kind of effect upon a champion, and that other artifacts should be generally ineffective against Champions. Depsite specifically being designed to take out said champion.
Now that I know the plans for the changes to the heartwood spear, then no, Rajaat isn't the only one that can make artifacts to take out the championss or whatever.
It just seemed odd that such a pathetic artifact helped take out oone of Rajaat's champions / SM.
As an aside, I really, really, really dislike the tendancy to blame alll athasian ills on one psycotic madman in the past. Not everything boils back to Rajaat, and he is not the root of all evil on Athas.
That's what I'm doing, so get off your high horse about it already. :P
Trust me, I know how you feel about this, I'm pretty much there myself, but I didn't see enough evidence that the heartwood spear should have ever came close to giving the heroes enough power to take out Kalak and survive to tell the tale despite that Denning dubbed it so.
Nothing against Denning, I just found the writeup for the heartwood spear odd is all, maybe it was meant to be more powerful and whoever did the writeup didn't reflect that.
/me shrugs
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Not sure what you mean here.
Kalidnay was either taken to the Domain of Dread and remains in a coma and isn't transformed, or had his body destroyed by a combine effort of Kalak, Borys, and Hammnu while his mind was imprisoned in the obsidian spheres he used to transform himself into a full dragon.
Which is, of course, what I get for rattling something off when I'm in a rush. :embarrass
That's what I'm doing, so get off your high horse about it already. :P
Can't. Ground's too far to fall too. Wouldn't want to hurt myself.
Nothing against Denning, I just found the writeup for the heartwood spear odd is all, maybe it was meant to be more powerful and whoever did the writeup didn't reflect that.
Entirely possible.
Keep in mind that the stat writeup is from the same book that claims that Ktandeo was a hafling. I don't tend to be inclined to lend it a huge amount of credibility.
Originally posted by flip
Can't. Ground's too far to fall too. Wouldn't want to hurt myself.
:P
Keep in mind that the stat writeup is from the same book that claims that Ktandeo was a hafling. I don't tend to be inclined to lend it a huge amount of credibility.
Amen there.