In an other thread someone asked if there were different *kind* of orc, elves, and so why not half-giant. Well dont ask me why but a light bulb puped over my head( and it hurts).
Why in all the worlds is Athas a spelljammerless world?? Is it because of the gray surrounding it? Or have you thought about simply because of the sun's tremendous gravity(being so near Athas) which would suck all space farers trying to aproach(I know i spell it wrong) the planet!! The second reason could make sence although i dont know SJ rules conserning gravity nor am I familiar with the spaceship magical abilities so I'll leave at that.
On an other topic. How come in the majority of worlds, there are elfs, dwarfs,goblinoids,trolls,humans other then the fact they are the clasic races of D&D's?? Well, spelljamming is the answer to that anathema. But to visualize spelljamming as the answer, we might ask ourselves were was the first planet where all the races started of colonising/conquering other solar system??(way, way way(in eons time) before the first rulebook of SJ and its timeline(if any--but I suppose there is one... somewhere in those supplements.)
every time there is a thread concerning Athas and spelljamming, it is alway discussed in the same way: what is really preventing any spelljamming from entering Athas cosmos?? or is it because it is to far away??
you are asking yourself the wrong question from the beginning.
The answer is not where is Athas's cosmos but when!! Yes.... when.
Lets suppose Athas's cosmology is the cradle of all the multiverse.
1--Rhulisti rules the blue age gods are mere childs with immortality but no power for the moment(that's why angels are their gardians --against demons
2-- brown tide virus spread-- some rhulisti fears for their life and flee on life-shaped ship hoping Athas is not the only blue planet.
3-- brown tide is killed and the remaining rhulisti transforms themselves into thenew races in hope to better survive the new age.(except the rhul-thaun who were secluded in the jagged cliffs)
4-- space halfling are releived when they realise other new worlds are forming with the enhence help of the nowteen gods.
5-- Halfling being some kind of creature with doppleganger atributes are permanentelly transformed into varius races throughout the universe and its solar systems and curiously a several races look and behave exaclly the same in various planet.
6-- the event with the pristine tower, Rhulisti rituals and the dark lens changes the cosmos as a whole hidding it from the gods( no magical transportation is possible.
7-- spelljamming as not been discovered yet
All monsters are a derivation of life-shaped creation left to their own(self evolution as began)
OR.................. and this is my favorite.
1--Athas is the first cosmos: nothing exist beyond it.
2-- all the events in DS material occurs to this day.
3-- still no other world exist.
4--Mindë realy exist on Athas and with the help of the Spirits of the Land, Oronis, and Rajaat curelean storm, a new blue age finally resurface. The rhul-thaun are slowly returning to their Rhulisti glory.
5-- Mindë being fully healed is able(unknowingly of course--she/it 's just life taking its natural course) to *cure* the cosmos and its Gray trap and spread beyond its eons old bondaries creating other solar system.
6-- Gods are born as immortal children
7--- New-Rhulisti are now ready to conquer other worlds.
8--- Having doppleganger atributes whole colonies of Halfling farers transform themselves into new races(like they did once on athas. But before doing so,on each planet colonised a crimson monolith is grown for use future travel.
9--One Life-shape vaisseau mysteriously disapears from site of other mother ships view. ( life-shapers inside the said vaisseau were experimenting on time travel and succeeded. On the other side of their timeswap they crash on a gigantic metheor which will later be known as the Messager. A side effect of the crash= most life-shape abilities lost from lack of material.
10--Gith and his fleeing brethren Illithid slaves discovers a strange artifact that seem to be able to teleport others through time and space. Thought to have found their best way to hide from their old masters, use it and apears not only in other time but on athas( Black Spine) Until they later find out Illithids are also on Athas. (came in through timeless astral plane--very lucky MindFlayers)
11-- the creation of the planar gate was possible because of that timeless atribute of the said plane. So Dregoth traveled in the future without knowing it.
.........................................................................................................
ok! I know there are huge gaps in my idea. This is merely because the whole idea is a joke.....................................
.......................... I uh!,.. at least I think it is!!
Hope you enjoyed it anyway and had a good laff.
Got ya!!
Lets suppose Athas's cosmology is the cradle of all the multiverse.
Errr . . . this would be fine except that the Rebirth occured only 14,000 some odd years ago, yet other settings have histories that extend back a hundred thousand years or so (of course, this assumes that each setting's version of 'now/modern time' is congruent).
Thankfully this is all a joke
since making heads or tails of it at first was starting to cause severe cerebral leakage . . . .
is bleeding!Quick Mach, stab me in the face so the other end matches.
My poor eyes and brain for trying to read and comprehend more "SJ + DS = rule!" threads.
hehehehe
P.S. Damn, I can't say
?What about arse?
Bumpum?
Twin cheeks?
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Errr . . . this would be fine except that the Rebirth occured only 14,000 some odd years ago, yet other settings have histories that extend back a hundred thousand years or so.
you are right
(of course, this assumes that each setting's version of 'now/modern time' is congruent)
This was part of my joke/idea. For exemple if a group were to play in a Forgothen realm setting of this day(timeline speaking) Athas would have been a new blue age since ... long long ago.
Why in all the worlds is Athas a spelljammerless world??
------------------------------------------------------------------------'
The "Lifemasters" in fact did use "Spelljammers" that fed of Life energy and they were also technologically advanced in fields like genetics, chemistry, alchemy, etc.
In fact, they, The "Lifemasters", was the "Creator Race" of all the creatures on Athas using Lifemagic and genetic manipulation.
The problem is that these people (the "Lifemasters") were extremely dangerous....in fact a 100x more dangerous than the Ancient Empire of Netheril on Toril, cause they actually figured out how to "leech" the monolith called Athas as well as the Sun of Life energy to power the magic. (just imagine if they could catch a god
)The gods supposedly "abandoned" Athas long before the "Lifemasters" came, but most likely they died in the ancient godwars or their was no indiginous life on Athas before the "LifeMasters" came that needed gods.
The most blunt explanation would be the Realmspace's Overgod in seeing the danger mere "mortals" in It's RealmSpace posed. tossed the entire RealmSpace into non-existence to try to contain the now very dangerous magic and technology the inhabitants possessed.
This "non existence" is the "Black" and the "Grey" that are where the connections to the Astral and "Deep Ethereal" should be....so Spelljamming is definitely not possible anymore without being connected to the rest of Reality, the Pseudo-Reality called "The Flow" doesn't go to Athas as it is sort of a "sidespace" that Spelljammers use within normal reality/existence.
But Even godlings have a trouble navigating and getting through the "Black" and "Grey" and Standard Divine magic and intervention is impossible in the "Grey", "Black" and Athas Realm and Standard "Ether"/Weave magic does not function in the Realm either.
With nowhere to go and no way to "locust" to another world or plane the "Lifemasters" empire crumbled and they all but died out though their genetic experiments roam Athas and some of their descendent's occupy the Hundreds of Spelljammers that fly over Athas (as big as 3 miles across "lifeShip cities" ) and have no clue on how to operate the ships that are on "auto-pilot"
Please note that while I read these out of worn, old books in a used bookstore I do not have the resources on hand. though I should point out that they wouldn't emphasis that you can't spelljam to Athas in the likes of "Preservers and Defilers" (a suuipplement I do have) unless it once was a Spelljammer world. (as the Spelljammer "defence fleet" above shows)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On an other topic. How come in the majority of worlds, there are elfs, dwarfs,goblinoids,trolls,humans other then the fact they are the clasic races of D&D's??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually read the early books on that too.
In most cases the worlds develop their own version of Elves, Trolls, goblins, Dragons, etc .
But in some of the Resources there is "Great Migrations" between the worlds via the gods, overgods, and even "the world's" desire to trade/borrow/steal/adapt new lifeforms.
Add Spelljamming and technologiacal and magical means to travel and then even mere mortals can migrate between the Planes.
The "Lifemasters" were in fact the "Creator Race" of Athas, though wheter they were "native" themselves is doubtful as they have hundreds of Spelljammers still over Athas with some big enough to hold large communities. (now majority deserted though really small colony of "halflings" with blue eyes, pale skin, and, silver hair can be found here and there in some of the ships....knowledge of how the Spelljammers work or who they were and lost to them...these are the "Lifemasters" desendents)
They actually genetically manipulated thier own genes into the Halfings (moot as the "Lifemasters" were basically Halfling...but more..."advanced" beings from using Lifemagic simular to the Dragons and Avangions transformations), Humans, Dwarfs, Elves, Trolls, Giants, etc. Eache species designed and adapted for the kind of work they would do as "cloned slaves"
Again, I don't remember which resource I read this from as I didn't buy it (and reget it every day now)
The Books that the Dragon Kings use to Change into Dragons (And Preservers use to Change into Avangions) , come from the "Lifemasters". Books on Spelljamming may be found in the ruins on Athas or in a Dragon King's or Avangion's Liabary though such knowledge is useless as how can a spelljammer pass what even the gods can't? ( Teleport Magic used on the entire Spelljammer boosted my Lifemagic Shhh! of Course we are talking "Star Draining" or a few thousand lives needed
)On a other topic, replying to what you wrote above. althought what you wrote could have been one aswer(among many) of how it all began. But I'll have to be honest and say there are 2 reasons which makes me wince when i think of the veracity of your theory.
1---You dont remember the Book source and not to say the least: seem to be the only one out here to have ever read someting about Rhulisti spelljamming.
2--The rhulisti(life-chapers) never wrote any BOOKS (as stated in WRotJC). They were relying on story telling and rituals to teach their descendants. (they even had somesort of life-shape creature which was similar to a virtual imager3D(like the one greeting the adventurers in the side treck adventure of the DS box set 2))
Other than those 2 comments, I dont see why your(WarOverlord) theory couldn't have happen eons ago. (except for the several life-shape space-ship still orbiting Athas out there to this day.)
I'm saying theory simply because to me, it is just that.
1---You dont remember the Book source and not to say the least: seem to be the only one out here to have ever read someting about Rhulisti spelljamming.
-----------------------------------------
Of Course not, the Rhulisti where "engineered" by the "Lifemasters" along with the Pyreen and the cilivization fell Thousands of generations ago for the Rhulisti
Coolest thing about verbal history is that you can simply forget to pass on the stories you don't want to
My best guess it the Books were, and I cringe at the thought, limited edition.
As somebody that never played a Pen and Paper version of the game and hasn't played the PC games (Wake of the Ravager, Crismson Sands) is a while, I have nothing to gain by making up stuff, nor am I so imaginative as like someone pointed out earlier I don't even have a clue what Spelljaming is all about other than what I read in those Dark Sun Supplements that, and believe me the Idea of "Space Halfings" and them Creating all life on Athas is just downright ridiculous to me, but it was in a book Made by a company called TSR
Maybe "Lifemasters of Athas?"
(a lot of the Darksun supplement books where named that simply)I'll try to get back to that used bookstore the next time I am in town in May and try to snag the thing if it is still there.
Considering that Toril has Netheril in it's past I do agree it sounds like a Mirror attempt for validity by giving Athas a highly magical/technological past that became ashes long forgotten (Sounds Lord of the Ring-ish to) and was rediscovered a few Milena later by rediscovered by Rajaat when he was snooping around ancient ruins
The "Lifemasters" texts are the ancient texts that mixed power of the mind (Psionics) with "lifemagic" (Preserverism/Defilerism/Meta-lagic) to "advance" and is what both Dragon and Avangion wannabes need to dig up in the ancient ruins and study, with a new set needed to be studied and used for every "Level Up"
______________
Let's not forget that somehow, he's made the leap that the life-masters used arcane magic techniques (sucking life-energy to power things, like spells), which Rajaat hadn't invented until after they had collapsed.
------------------------
No. It (The book) said he "discovered" (rediscovered) Preserverism and Defilerim among the Ancient Ruins he dug around he did not "invent" it
Also. the "Lifemasters" were not Arcane magic users but "Lifemagic" users (Same thing as Preserverism/Defilerism) and techonological advanced as well (A creator "Race" that either made or imported all life to Athas)
Psionic abilites was also second nature to the "Lifemasters" as well which is why the "clones" they made from themselves and specially engineered races all have some Psionic ability on.
In fact, the "Spelljamers" are "Lifeships" that are a blend of "Lifemagic", "Psionic empowerment", and technology....kind of living creatures in themselves which is why they are "auto-piloted"
Not bad for a "malfunctioning" mutant though someone considerd "primative" pulling something like a "new form of magic" out of his ass would seem absurd as Preserverism/defilerism is "MetaMagic"/"Lifemagic" and is not exclusive to Athas or "new"
My best guess it the Books were, and I cringe at the thought, limited edition.
This just gets better and better! WarOverlord, please accept my most heartfelt
for what has to be the most entertaining thread I've read in a long time. Your abilities of inventive rationalisation are most impressive I'll try to get back to that used bookstore the next time I am in town in May and try to snag the thing if it is still there.
Sure. You do that. Good luck.
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
My best guess it the Books were, and I cringe at the thought, limited edition.
You'd be wrong there. TSR very, very rarely did limited edition books; in fact, the only limited edition stuff I can ever recall being done for D&D was done by WotC (some novel hardcover re-releases and L3). SJ and DS (and I can assure you, most other settings) did not have any sort of limited release, other than the typical small print runs of said books.
Look, you're not going to convince people that you have some super-special, super-lost knowledge of dark sun (or spelljammer, for that matter) by citing some mysterious books (that you cannot name) you read in a bookstore 5-10 years ago, especially in light of at least 2 people who own *all* DS products and 1 who owns all SJ products (me). At best you've managed to mangle various things together that are totally unrelated.
Dang, usually not that harsh, but had to say it
* For spelljammer: make the crystal sphere itself abide by the rules of magic inherent on Athas, permanently transforming any magic items (helms included) into Athasian equivilents, right down to their life-draining/corrupting/tainting effect.... That alone would keep 99.9999999% of all spelljamming traffic out of the sphere, it would be labelled as a very dangerous place to travel to.
* For dragonstar: a world of corrupted magic and abundant psionics? Honestly, if I were the emperor, I'd say "screw that" and carpet-bomb the planet from space, or just launch the planet busters....
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Look, you're not going to convince people that you have some super-special, super-lost knowledge of dark sun (or spelljammer, for that matter) by citing some mysterious books (that you cannot name) you read in a bookstore 5-10 years ago, especially in light of at least 2 people who own *all* DS products and 1 who owns all SJ products (me). At best you've managed to mangle various things together that are totally unrelated.
Dang, usually not that harsh, but had to say it
I too have all but one DS products (RaFoaDK) and all the SJ products too (blows own trumpet !). I can't remember it either.
Sorry.
:sad:
Having said that - SJ vs DS is relatively simple in my own campaign.
Unusually - i tend to still to canon and just go with the whole Athas as a closed sphere that is either hidden or so very far away as to be unreachable story !
/me bafled at the whole arguement / debate at the SJ issue.
Maybe "Lifemasters of Athas?" (a lot of the Darksun supplement books where named that simply)
In your defense, while there was never any such title (or even anything remotely close to that, sorry), you could simply browse a website that has catalogued all the TSR/D&D products ever released. Here's one that has been confirmed as comprehesive from the start of AD&D through to 3rd Edition (note that it is not a full archive however of basic D&D, but that's not important for Dark Sun): TSR Archive. There's others I'm sure. Just browse on through the AD&D sections a little until you come across the product(s) that your referencing (I use it for that reason since the old brainpan don't work the same way that it used to
).If, by chance, there is no such product though, really, its okay to say that your wrong. No ones going to stab you in the face for it . . . unless you happen to live close by, but in that case, it won't be personal anyway
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Dang, usually not that harsh, but had to say it
I say we find out where he lives then go beat him with a big stick.
Then sick the canon overlords on him for stomping on canon so much, lol.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I say we find out where he lives then go beat him with a big stick.
Then sick the canon overlords on him for stomping on canon so much, lol.
Only if it involves sharp pointed objects...:D
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
_____________
Let's not forget that somehow, he's made the leap that the life-masters used arcane magic techniques (sucking life-energy to power things, like spells), which Rajaat hadn't invented until after they had collapsed.
------------------------
No. It (The book) said he "discovered" (rediscovered) Preserverism and Defilerim among the Ancient Ruins he dug around he did not "invent" it
Rajaat is the First Sorcerer. He spent centuries inventing it. That's something which really isn't in much dispute at all in Dark Sun, as there are several books that specifically point that out.
Also. the "Lifemasters" were not Arcane magic users but "Lifemagic" users (Same thing as Preserverism/Defilerism) and techonological advanced as well (A creator "Race" that either made or imported all life to Athas)
I hate to tell you, but Preservers & Defilers are Arcane spellcasters. That is how arcane magic works on Athas. Preservers are almost identical to the standard PHB wizard, with a couple differences. Much like how a Dragonlance wizard is almost identical to PHB wizards with only a couple differences.
Psionic abilites was also second nature to the "Lifemasters" as well which is why the "clones" they made from themselves and specially engineered races all have some Psionic ability on.
As Magic came with Rajaat (who invented Arcane magic), so did Psionics come with the Green Age. The Rhulisti didn't have psionics. The races from the Green Age did.
In fact, the "Spelljamers" are "Lifeships" that are a blend of "Lifemagic", "Psionic empowerment", and technology....kind of living creatures in themselves which is why they are "auto-piloted"
You seem to be confusing the bio technology of the Rhulisti with the life-draining effects of Arcane Magic and Psionics. I'm still totally at a loss how you have a single race which uses both, when there are thousands of years separating them.
Not bad for a "malfunctioning" mutant though someone considerd "primative" pulling something like a "new form of magic" out of his ass would seem absurd as Preserverism/defilerism is "MetaMagic"/"Lifemagic" and is not exclusive to Athas or "new"
Ahh, so you're saying that there are preservers and defilers in D&D books from 2nd Edition that were on other worlds? Really now..... Please, list your references.
Afterall, I can empathise with him.
I was wrong before too.
Once.
But it was a long time ago.
I'd rather not talk about it.
Seriously, its not the ideas themselves that are bad, in fact, its a nice blend if that's the kind of multiversal direction you wish to take with a merged DS/SJ campaign. Its just the adamant refusal to admit that maybe, said references are just being jumbled up a bit over time. It happens.
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why in all the worlds is Athas a spelljammerless world??
------------------------------------------------------------------------'
The "Lifemasters" in fact did use "Spelljammers" that fed of Life energy and they were also technologically advanced in fields like genetics, chemistry, alchemy, etc.
In fact, they, The "Lifemasters", was the "Creator Race" of all the creatures on Athas using Lifemagic and genetic manipulation.
The problem is that these people (the "Lifemasters") were extremely dangerous....in fact a 100x more dangerous than the Ancient Empire of Netheril on Toril, cause they actually figured out how to "leech" the monolith called Athas as well as the Sun of Life energy to power the magic. (just imagine if they could catch a god
The gods supposedly "abandoned" Athas long before the "Lifemasters" came, but most likely they died in the ancient godwars or their was no indiginous life on Athas before the "LifeMasters" came that needed gods.
The most blunt explanation would be the Realmspace's Overgod in seeing the danger mere "mortals" in It's RealmSpace posed. tossed the entire RealmSpace into non-existence to try to contain the now very dangerous magic and technology the inhabitants possessed.
This "non existence" is the "Black" and the "Grey" that are where the connections to the Astral and "Deep Ethereal" should be....so Spelljamming is definitely not possible anymore without being connected to the rest of Reality, the Pseudo-Reality called "The Flow" doesn't go to Athas as it is sort of a "sidespace" that Spelljammers use within normal reality/existence.
But Even godlings have a trouble navigating and getting through the "Black" and "Grey" and Standard Divine magic and intervention is impossible in the "Grey", "Black" and Athas Realm and Standard "Ether"/Weave magic does not function in the Realm either.
With nowhere to go and no way to "locust" to another world or plane the "Lifemasters" empire crumbled and they all but died out though their genetic experiments roam Athas and some of their descendent's occupy the Hundreds of Spelljammers that fly over Athas (as big as 3 miles across "lifeShip cities" ) and have no clue on how to operate the ships that are on "auto-pilot"
Please note that while I read these out of worn, old books in a used bookstore I do not have the resources on hand. though I should point out that they wouldn't emphasis that you can't spelljam to Athas in the likes of "Preservers and Defilers" (a suuipplement I do have) unless it once was a Spelljammer world. (as the Spelljammer "defence fleet" above shows)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On an other topic. How come in the majority of worlds, there are elfs, dwarfs,goblinoids,trolls,humans other then the fact they are the clasic races of D&D's??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually read the early books on that too.
In most cases the worlds develop their own version of Elves, Trolls, goblins, Dragons, etc .
But in some of the Resources there is "Great Migrations" between the worlds via the gods, overgods, and even "the world's" desire to trade/borrow/steal/adapt new lifeforms.
Add Spelljamming and technologiacal and magical means to travel and then even mere mortals can migrate between the Planes.
The "Lifemasters" were in fact the "Creator Race" of Athas, though wheter they were "native" themselves is doubtful as they have hundreds of Spelljammers still over Athas with some big enough to hold large communities. (now majority deserted though really small colony of "halflings" with blue eyes, pale skin, and, silver hair can be found here and there in some of the ships....knowledge of how the Spelljammers work or who they were and lost to them...these are the "Lifemasters" desendents)
They actually genetically manipulated thier own genes into the Halfings (moot as the "Lifemasters" were basically Halfling...but more..."advanced" beings from using Lifemagic simular to the Dragons and Avangions transformations), Humans, Dwarfs, Elves, Trolls, Giants, etc. Eache species designed and adapted for the kind of work they would do as "cloned slaves"
Again, I don't remember which resource I read this from as I didn't buy it (and reget it every day now)
The Books that the Dragon Kings use to Change into Dragons (And Preservers use to Change into Avangions) , come from the "Lifemasters". Books on Spelljamming may be found in the ruins on Athas or in a Dragon King's or Avangion's Liabary though such knowledge is useless as how can a spelljammer pass what even the gods can't? ( Teleport Magic used on the entire Spelljammer boosted my Lifemagic Shhh! of Course we are talking "Star Draining" or a few thousand lives needed
Well for the most part, you are correct, each world seems to spawn, or possess its own versions of things. But keep in mind that many races were created by Gods, such as Correllian for the Elves, Moradin for the Dwarfs, and Gruumish for the Orcs. Some worlds, like Krynn, had all the Gods create the world's races(Elves, Ogres and Humans in this case). Its kind of complex, but I often explain this threw the concept of metatime, or "time outside of time". Basically, lets say on one world, X god first created X race. Now Y God, on another world, decides he also would like X race on his world, so he recreates X race on his world. Each world has its own timeframe, so technically, X race could have been recreated by God Y before God X first created X race. For example, the "Lifemasters" could have changed themselves into Orcs, Elves and other Athasian races, based on sampled genetic information taken from members of those races on other worlds before Athas was isolated, and altered them as they saw fit. Technically, X race could have been created after the Lifemasters changed themselves into X race, since each world has its own rules governing time. But X race still would have been created before the "Lifemasters" took the form of X race, since we are taking metatime into account.
Heres a summery:
Metatime: 1. X-race created by X god. 2. X race recreated by Y-God. 3. X race recreated again by "Lifemasters" on Athas
Time: 1. X race recreated again by "Lifemasters" on Athas 2. X-race created by X god 3. X race recreated by Y-God
Confusing isn't it? Basically, under such a theorum, Athas could
A. Be both the cradle of life on the Prime,
or
B. The last world in a series of dying worlds in a future time far removed from the times of Toril, Krynn or Oerth, in an age when the Gods have all abandoned the Multiverse, and the Outer Planes degenerate into the Grey and Black(No Gods could send their power into an era where it no longer exists).
Frankly, I think that B fits into Darksun's mood alot more than A.
Originally posted by Nightdruid
Only if it involves sharp pointed objects...:D
Actually I prefer whips and Chains
Wait....different kind of Role Playing now
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I say we find out where he lives then go beat him with a big stick.
Then sick the canon overlords on him for stomping on canon so much, lol.
I am in My Fortress 40 Miles South of Hilo, HI......come get me.....punk.
Warning, My "Stick" is Bigger than yours and all metal, and I am not called the War Overlord for nothing
:DOriginally posted by Mach2.5
Okay, we gotta stop pickin on Overlord.
Afterall, I can empathise with him.
I was wrong before too.
Once.
But it was a long time ago.
I'd rather not talk about it.
Seriously, its not the ideas themselves that are bad, in fact, its a nice blend if that's the kind of multiversal direction you wish to take with a merged DS/SJ campaign. Its just the adamant refusal to admit that maybe, said references are just being jumbled up a bit over time. It happens.
I honestly don't know if I am wrong or not cause I do remember reading that very cool book with all it's art work and such.
I have nothing to gain by ranting about it either cause I haven't even played "Wake of the Ravager" or "Crimson sands" over over a Decade.
Still was remeberable and cool reading though.
Hmmm. My mind is failing me a little though.
Should have never tried to mimic the Mind Lords procedure :D
Originally posted by The WarOverlord
I am in My Fortress 40 Miles South of Hilo, HI......come get me.....punk.
Cool, I got a friend in your neck of the woods.