I know about the ageless Tiamat and Takhisis debate(I have come to the conclusion that these two 'ladies' are in fact two different goddesses, since one pretty much lives in a cave 95% of the time, and the other is an active Goddess on the Prime Matiarial Plane/Material Plane)
Now let us examine the facts
Bahamut: Is worshiped mostly just by Good Dragons, mainly Metallic Dragons, but other good dragon species follow him as well. Desires human and demihuman worshippers, to aid the cause of good, but currently possesses only a few, to aid in this goal, takes the identity of other (human or Demihuman) Gods of good currently not worshipped. Is a very active, aggressive god when it comes to his interests, and battles evil whenever it rears its ugly head.
Homeplane: The Holy Mountain(The Seven Heavens of Mt.Celestia)
Alignment: Lawful Good
Bahamut's Avatars: Bahamut's common and favorite avatar is that of a huge Platinum Dragon. His other avatars include those of other Good gods whose identitys Bahamut has borrowed. Bahumut also appears as a combat capable old man sometimes(not a wizardly one though)
Paladine: Is worshiped by nearly any race of good alignment on Krynn(or other worlds, but mostly just Krynn). Takes an active interests in what goes on in the world, but only intervenes in the world to balance the evil of Takhisis. Prefers mortals make their own decisions, valueing free will. Is mostly subtle and peaceful in his actions when he makes them in the world.
Homeplane: The Holy Mountain(The Seven Heavens of Mt.Celestia)
Alignment: Lawful Good(Neutral Good tendacies)
Paladine's Avatars: Paladine's favorite avatar is that of the befuddled mage Fizban, a powerful and compassionate, yet senile old man. Also has a warrior and a priest avatar, and numerious others(including perhaps, a gnarly dragon)
So, are these two draconic dieties one and and same? Or are they related, but different Gods, with different aims, beliefs, and method of serving the cause of Good?
Opinions?
- Paladine and Bahumut live in different cosmologies (Krynn and it’s planes, and the Great Wheel/Fauren respectively), and Paldaine is clearly far more important than Bahumut as well. Therefore I fail to see why they could be “viewed as the same”, at least by the standard interpretation. What effect does the end of the WoS (and Paladine in particular) have on Fauren for example? In my view they simply don't exist with each other, I actually thought that was the offical line (2nd ed AD&D seemed to imply that all the campaign settings were linked, at least in Planescape they were).
- Similarly Bahamut is always portrayed as being pretty much “Dracocentric”, yes he does have a few human followers but not many and does not seem to get involved in the affairs of other races muchg either. Paladine however show a very active interest in pretty much all the races.
- Umm Paladine seems rather more fleshed out than Bahamut (who has not much written for him, despite being in AD&D before Paladine came along), I mean apart from the canary story and a few references in specific dragon books like the Draconomicom, not much material about Bahamut exists. Where as Paladine has been fleshed out in numerous novels and sourcebooks.
While I feel it is clear that Paladine is very similar and in all possibility has taken elements from Bahamut, they still do not strike me as exactly the same, if nothing else Paladine is a far more developed personality.
Maybe Bahamut is in fact the twin brother of Paladine. Paladine is the wiser and more compassionate of the two, while Bahamut is the more insuliar and aggressive one, who, while more well known threwout the Material Plane, is more choosy about who his worshipers are.
If they aren't brothers, but still aren't the same God, what would happen if the two Gods were to somehow meet?
If it is important to your campaign, then its whatever suits you. for 'official' dl, there is only paladine, known as bah'mut to the istarans.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
True Illithidbix, although Bahamut was a Babylonian or Sumerian God orginally(I know that as a fact, but I don't know much else about Babylonian or Sumerian mythology unfortunately)
Actually, Tiamat was a Babylonian or sumerian goddess, while Bahamut was an Islamic mythological figure.
Because if he has not, then we can't really chide Bahumut's lack of appearance. The reason we are looking at PALADINE>BAHUMUT is because Paladine has been such an integral part of the DRAGON LANCE novels.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
So, are these two draconic dieties one and and same? Or are they related, but different Gods, with different aims, beliefs, and method of serving the cause of Good?
They are not one and the same god. Krynn does not share deities with any other pantheon, even though there are potentially other deities with similar or identical names to those in the Krynnish pantheon. Takhisis is not the Tiamat of other worlds, Chemosh is not Orcus or Anthraxus, Paladine is not Bahamut. They are separate, much as the god Tyr in the Forgotten Realms pantheon is not the same god as the Norse god Tyr.
While it was popular in the 2nd edition of the AD&D game to have many links between worlds and promote cross-planar or cross-setting adventures, to the point that products such as Ravenloft, Spelljammer and Planescape all featured ways to take adventurers from the Realms or Greyhawk to Krynn and back, such is not the case in 3rd edition. It should generally be assumed that, like the Realms, Krynn has its own separate setting where Krynnish features and planar cosmology is dominant, and its gods reside and are worshipped by Krynnish folk without exception.
Cheers,
Cam
Bahamut would never gain a foothold on Krynn, because its Paladine's territory. But I still wonder what would happen if Bahamut were to meet Paladine face to face?
Any ideas on this?
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
But I still wonder what would happen if Bahamut were to meet Paladine face to face?
Bahamut would shake his hand and say "Hiya dad, what's up? Long time no see. Where's mom at anyways?". To which Paladine replies "She's still angry at that Raistlin fellow for trying to kill 'er".
Both "Paladine" and "Takhisis" came from the void, where they were considered lesser gods, that they might become greater gods and rule the land as they chose.
This was stated, I believe, in the DragonLance campaign Setting, the one with the campfire and all the Companions on it. (I'm forgetful in me old age.. :D) While it doesn't expressly come out and say they are Bahamut/Tiamat, the supposition is there, and quite frankly, it doesn't amke sense to pussyfoot around it. Being gods, they're more then capable of existing on multiple planes and worlds, notwithstanding any promises made whilst being implaed by a shiny stick... :P
They recruited other deities to assist in the creation of the world and races, who were more then likely gods of various other worlds... Zivilyn for example, could see everything at once... EVERYTHING. To me, that expresses that he would know he correct answer...
Bahh, too much thought given to the subject.
Just say yes, and go with it... it makes sense...
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
No....Paladine and Takhisis are not Bahamut and Tiamat...This has been officially answered before....And....P & T are greater gods btw....but back to the original statement....the gods Takhisis and Paladine were based from Bahamut and Tiamat...but are not the same gods...and thank God the official D&D canon supports this...because DL is not linked to the default D&D setting at all....or FR....it has its own cosmology and is officially set apart from any other campaign world...WOOT! I had always wanted that to happen!
Now I'm not saying your wrong and all, but if they aren't the same Gods.....I would really like to know why they use some of the same names ex: Bah'mut, Draco Paladin, Ti'mat just to name a few.
I tend to think they are the same gods, but this is probably because I'm from the school of 2e (1e also, but mostly 2e) when the "spheres" shared the outer planes with each other. But even then they still could be the same in 3e, I mean if characters can travers the plane of shadow and wind up in other realms/crystal spheres then why can't the gods?
Originally posted by JRBlasingame
Now I'm not saying your wrong and all, but if they aren't the same Gods.....I would really like to know why they use some of the same names ex: Bah'mut, Draco Paladin, Ti'mat just to name a few.
Because it's a cute reference.
At one point they may have been regarded as the same deity - heck, a lot of that was going about in the days of 2nd edition. Nowadays the general view is that they have nothing to do with any other pantheon, and that commonality of names is merely recognition that the designers drew from similar references.
The platinum dragon and the chromatic dragon weren't originally gods, in 1st edition AD&D. They were just singular dragons, powerful and served by other dragons, but not divine or able to grant spells. That came later in such settings as the Forgotten Realms.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Because it's a cute reference.
At one point they may have been regarded as the same deity - heck, a lot of that was going about in the days of 2nd edition. Nowadays the general view is that they have nothing to do with any other pantheon, and that commonality of names is merely recognition that the designers drew from similar references.
The platinum dragon and the chromatic dragon weren't originally gods, in 1st edition AD&D. They were just singular dragons, powerful and served by other dragons, but not divine or able to grant spells. That came later in such settings as the Forgotten Realms.
Cheers,
Cam
And that is fine that you think it is a "cute" reference, but to ME (along with all the other "cute" references) it says they are the same gods (without flat out saying it). You don't think they are the same that's fine, but I tend to think they are....but it really doesn't matter. I don't play DL (it's my favorite setting, but my DM only runs FR), but I read every DL book/reference I can get my hands on. This of course means Paladine doesn't really come into my gaming experience much (although there is one character I played where it did).
Sorry for the late reply, just moved and internet isn't set up at the house yet
.Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Yes....but cute reference or what you believe to be true...officially Bahamut and Tiamat are NOT Paladine and Takhisis....officially. You may choose to make the conection in your game or in your own preference....but as per the official setting they are not one and the same...just trying to answer the original question with a black and white answer.
Where did you hear this official pronouncement? I'm curious not accusing. From what one person said, one author says "yes" the other says "no". But I still believe there is enough hints, that lead more than just me to say they are the same gods. But as you say it doesn't matter what either of us think, because it changes from each individuals perspective and game.
Originally posted by JRBlasingame
Where did you hear this official pronouncement?
To start with, their deity write-ups are very different. Compare those from the Deities and Demigods book with those in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. There's no connection between any of Krynn's gods in the current modern edition of the setting with those of other worlds. The same is true of the Forgotten Realms - even the planar makeup is deliberately different.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by talinthas
dude, dragonlance isnt connected to the multiverse. there currently is no multiverse, anyway. Thus, paladine is not bahamut anymore than dalamar is a drow.
Well, I'll just say this. To each thier own. It seems people take this topic a little to seriously, so this is my last post on it.
But just so you know, there is a multiverse...they are just connected differently now. There is no Great Wheel, BUT through the plane of shadow you can get to just about anywhere...so YES they can be the same, because whatever a mortal can do (travers the plane of shadow) a god can do (more than likely) a whole lot better.
And yes...when someone tells us we dont know what we are talking about we do take it a little seriously...we showed you the many obvious reasons to know that Bahamut and Tiamat are not Paladine and Takhisis....but you continued to sit there and tell us that our sources were incorrect.
But...yes...there is a Great Wheel.....and thankfully it has nothing at all to do with Krynn in any way. Krynn is a stand alone universe....as are all the campaign settings....No More Multiverse....Huzzah!..........officially that is....
I wasn't even going to look at this topic again (guess I should deactivate the "notice by email"), but I did and don't like having words put in my mouth kind of makes me just a tad bit peeved...
I know the Great Wheel is "mentioned" (although I admit to not reading the whole of the DMG), but as you have said repeatedly, it is not what is considered the official stance anymore.
>And yes...when someone tells us we dont know what we are talking about we do take it a little seriously...we showed you the many obvious reasons to know that Bahamut and Tiamat are not Paladine and Takhisis....but you continued to sit there and tell us that our sources were incorrect.
I never said you (or anyone was wrong) and I showed you just as many reasons why they could be the same being. So please step off the horse and join the rest of us. Because you are doing the same thing you accuse me of doing.
>But...yes...there is a Great Wheel.....and thankfully it has nothing at all to do with Krynn in any way. Krynn is a stand alone universe....as are all the campaign settings....No More Multiverse....Huzzah!..........officially that is....
Truthfully I really don't see how it was really that bad (the Great Wheel), because stuff from one campaign barely ever effected another one. Oh, there are a few examples, but most of the time Avatars were being dealt with and so would not effect anything but the setting the adventure/book/etc took place in. Maybe it's the fact that they could "possibly" affect other settings....I don't know. Still not sure where this "official - they aren't the same" comes from but you can have your opinion and I'll have mine....I'll even help you off the horse too :D .
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I do hope that you get this reply...Im not trying to put words into your mouth any more than you are doing the same to me....We just must come off badly to eachother....anyhow....as far as the DMG goes....The Great Wheel is the accepted official cosmology...for the default D&D world, Greyhawk. Which is where Bahamut and Taimat reside in the official rules....THe Great Wheel is there, but it doesnt link to all the different campaign settings as it once did...which like I said is the way I lie it...but you have repeatedly said that you liked the old way.....which is just as good....its just a matter of preference really. I am just very pleased that Krynn is not affiliated with the Great Wheel because of things like this....I like the notion that Krynn and its surrounding planes are in and of themselves...that they are the center of importance in their campaign...that the gods are primarliy concerned with the events that concern the one world they made....as it is stated in the DL timeline. Its just a matter of taste....personally I never cared whether the other campaign settings were linked...I just despised the ways that Dragonlance was used in the other settings...It tended to make the setting seem unsophisticated to me...So I am glad that it has become unaffiliated.....Well....I find that I have gotten to that part where I repeat myself....so Ill depart now......Much respect to your opinion....It is a good one too.
Yeah, I didn't deactivate my "notice by email" so I got it ;) hehe. Sorry for being "abrasive", I have just had some problems these past 2 weeks (yes problems for weeks) with moving (between cable and electrical problems, and problems with the apartment complex I'm leaving...well you get the idea) ....I shouldn't have (and didn't mean too) take some of it out on you.
Truthfully, like I said....these are just some of my personal views. I just really like the notion of them being the same being. They don't really play into my gaming experience because my DM only runs Forgotten Realms, but DL is my favorite setting and (unlike what it may seem) I enjoy discussions like this....and USUALLY they are more civil on my part....again I apologize.
Anyways, no hard feelings and I hope for more easier going chats.
Proponents of Bahamut and Tiamat being the same as Paladine and Takhisis will quote all the similarities, from names to how they look, etc. etc. Proponents of them being different will say that Paladine and Takhisis are only based on Bahamut and Tiamat, that there are plenty of differences, and that DL has its own cosmology these days.
While the debate goes into more detail than this, you get the basic idea.
I wanted to touch upon something that Talinthas was saying above.
the key to answering this question lies in the answer to another- what difference does it make to you?
This is the key to this discussion. And really, it doesn’t matter much either way unless one is running a game that spans across worlds (i.e. Spelljammer or Planescape).
Does it matter beyond this? I don’t really think so. If they’re the same, then what changes from a Dragonlance perspective? Nothing. Just that Paladine and Takhisis have different names.
If you’re running a cross-world campaign, then it might matter, but even then, remember that DL is now 55 years (roughly) ahead of the Realms and Greyhawk. You would have to determine which time your game is set in. In a way, it would be cool to see how the death of Takhisis and sacrifice of Paladine’s godhood would affect other worlds.
Now, if you don’t like them being the same, then the status quo remains, and nothing changes.
To each their own.
For me, I like to think of Bahamut as the dragon avatar of Paladine (much like how Fizban is an avatar of Paladine) and I like to think of Tiamat as the dragon avatar of Takhisis. This is from a DL perspective, of course.
Everybody will have a different take on the issue, and that’s okay.
Of coarse, there was, and is, even in 2nd edition AD&D, two different campaign styles, one, having the campaign isolated, and self-contained, while the other was not.
The cosmology in 2nd edition(the Great Wheel) was really mostly a background thing, almost never mentioned in anywhere except in Planescape.
I am neutral in the debate, since my view is that Paladine and Bahamut are brothers, while Tiamat and Takhisis are the same.
It would be interesting to see a campaign centered around what the death of the Krynnish Gods did to the Multiverse.
Interesting. I always hoped new gods would come to Krynn, as I never found the dieties there to be "Good" at all. :sad:
However, I think the larger question is that if the novels are canon, then Krynn is part of the multiverse. Raistlin goes to the Abyss--later writers got confused and put the Dark Queen in the Nine Hells--and even faces Rutterkin. I recall references to other planes in the novels, and there is the "Gray" Skie navigates through--which seems to be the border Etheral.
Still, for the purposes of the novels, it makes more sense to treat Krynn as the center of its cosmology and rearrange the planes to fit this.
And as far as Paladine...he isnt dead. Just mortal...