Does he want to invent his own guns? Or just be able to use one? Or to be able to use one better...?
If it's a matter of using firearms, they come at the cost of an exotic weapon proficiency, or, as I'm all about the proper pimping of good ideas (or ones that just make sense and aren't too unbalancing), you could go with John Mangrum's variant where a character coming from a CL 9 domain has the pistol as a simple weapon proficiency, and rifle as a martial one.
If it's a matter of making new firearms...I'd be a bit leary of that for one, but beyond that, I'd leave that primary up to the arena of Skills as opposed to Prestige Classes. I'd possibly jimmy up a new Knowledge skill specifically geared towards firearms or explosives or the like, and tie it in with Craft (firearms). Though a Prestige Class that was even better at those two skills doesn't seem too unreasonable, if perhaps a bit...odd? Eh.
If you're looking for an amount of time for him to do research and make improvements...hm. As it is, I think the current Keep It Simple, Stupid method of weapons leaves it a bit bothersome to try and make improvements upon those weapons that are in-line with what one could expect out of one individual or century or what have you. How long did it take to give the inside of a gun barrel a spiralling as opposed to smooth bore, for example? And does doing that really make the gun no different than a masterwork firearm...? So I'm not quite sure how to answer that.
Originally posted by TricksterGod
If it's a matter of making new firearms...I'd be a bit leary of that for one, but beyond that, I'd leave that primary up to the arena of Skills as opposed to Prestige Classes. I'd possibly jimmy up a new Knowledge skill specifically geared towards firearms or explosives or the like, and tie it in with Craft (firearms). Though a Prestige Class that was even better at those two skills doesn't seem too unreasonable, if perhaps a bit...odd? Eh.
This is probably closest to what I'm asking...I want to know how much research you think would be necessary for one to be able to actually invent firearms, and how much time and resources it would take to construct said firearms.
I hope this is of Some use to People, I found it vastly enlightening myself.
Martin
MY character has the basic personality of wanting to improve his weapons to their maximum power. The PrC that uses guns was supposedly a dead civilizations that at one point had revolver wielding knights. My character finds the journal of one of these knights and is fascinated by the concept of the guns. The journal chronicles the life of this ideal knight fromhis first apprenticeship into his gunlisnger days. Which means that it tells how to build the revolvers that the class used. My character egins to slowly emulate this heroic champion of his ddreams until he finally sits down and, using the designs and directions in the journal, attempts to build himself the guns of the class. He knows nothing about guns or how to make bombs, and doesn't really strive to learn. He only wishes to become this warrior that he has read about over the time of the campaign.
*sighs* Wow, that took alot of typing for me to explain. I hope it clears something up.
I've got a gunsmith PC in my campaign. So far we've been using the craft(gunsmithing) rules for basic (and masterwork) firearms, but the player wants to get a bit more advanced. Now that they so often come upon enemies with damage reduction, regular bullets are often useless. He doesn't see the character as a wizard, but wants to make "magical" guns.
So we're working on a system of "Tinkering" that uses feats and closely mirrors the magic item creation process. (We figured the magic item process is well playtested and documented, so why reinvent the wheel). Right now we've got the initial feats laid out for it:
http://ravenloft.home.att.net/houserules.html
(note: they're not playtested yet, since he's still working on his first Scientific gun.)
We're also working on a Gunsmith prestige class that would get these feats as class abilities, but that's not finalized yet.
So for example, one of his first creations will probably be a "flaming" or "flaming burst" pistol, with bullets that explode for extra damage. (and with an effective +1 against DR) This shouldn't really be any more imbalancing than a flaming burst crossbow, since pistols are slower than crossbows to begin with.
It all depends on a. Table and House rules b. The players mentality some people get IC and their brains switch off. Others don't
(Like our Druid ATM, shes a begger for catching me out)
People who are non-fatally shot IRL and _don't realize they've been hit_ often keep walking until blood loss makes them keel over. Those who *do* fall down on impact -- assuming that they didn't literally get their foot blown off -- do so because movies and TV have conditioned them to think they're "supposed to".
So an armored character whose AC protects them from a bullet wound shouldn't fall over, any more than a properly-trained IRL soldier or police officer whose kevlar stops an incoming round.
Originally posted by Rotipher
Even modern handheld firearms aren't powerful enough to knock somebody down, unless you're packing beanbag-shot or consider a mortar a "handheld" firearm. The force of impact is too focused on just one tiny spot to have that kind of an effect; if guns could pack that much force into a bullet, the kickback from firing it would make the *shooter* fall over backwards!
People who are non-fatally shot IRL and _don't realize they've been hit_ often keep walking until blood loss makes them keel over. Those who *do* fall down on impact -- assuming that they didn't literally get their foot blown off -- do so because movies and TV have conditioned them to think they're "supposed to".
So an armored character whose AC protects them from a bullet wound shouldn't fall over, any more than a properly-trained IRL soldier or police officer whose kevlar stops an incoming round.
Almost.
True, modern bullets are "bullet-shaped" and thus focus energy to a small point for maximum penetration. We can discuss the merits of blunter, hollow-point, or flechette-style extremes and their effect on knocking someone down, but that misses the point (if you will): period-style lead bullets were round and functionally closer to blunt-impact than armor-piercing in effect. Also consider the size of the bullet itself; nobody remains standing after being hit with a .50 cal shot, musketball or modern full metal jacket round. Dueling pistols, perhaps...but not always.
This is even more true when you consider body armor, which by design spreads the force of impact over a wider area to help prevent penetration. Assuming the armor is strong enough not to be breached, the wearer still takes the full impact of the shot, converted to blunt damage and knockdown. Yes, a cop wearing kevlar will get knocked on his keister, but at least he'll have just a deep, nasty bruise (or even broken bone) and may have the wind knocked out of him. Better than the alternative. In the end, it won't just riccochet harmlessly off your mithril chain shirt. It'll hurt.
Of course, this all assumes lead shot. Enjoy the ramifications of less pliable metals, like cold iron or silver.
The action-reaction argument is valid, but doesn't take into account that the shooter is braced and set while the target usually is not. You can knock someone down with a Colt .45 just as easily as you can break your own wrist if you don't fire it properly. By the same token, it's no more adviseable to run while shooting a black powder weapon than is to stand there and brace for impact when getting shot at.
FWIW, I've seen this discussion a lot on other boards, like EnWorld and Mortality.net. Wouldn't be surprised if there are topic threads elsewhere here on WoTC, too. Most pirate-themed and swashbuckling adventure settings have tackled the issue, and I would suggest that anyone seriously curious about firearms in their campaign might hunt down those sources, as well.
Originally posted by Manofevil
So the question becomes: Is there a table or formula for computing non-penetrating effects of gunfire someplace else or does somebody here need to create one?
Actually, just use the rules as-is. Pistols do 1d10 (x3); a clever DM has any number of ways to describe what that actually feels like.
I completely forgot about the dispersal of impact design of armour. This really evens out the non-fantasy nature of firearms in a fantasy setting. Awesome!
VNM
Originally posted by Manofevil
Also remember that if the bullet DOES penetrate, it's likely to pass clean through the person WITHOUT knocking them back. Not a good thing when dealing with the undead.
Through the front layer of armor, through the body, through the layer of armor worn on the back...
It just seems goofy to give knockback to pistols, and only pistols, when there are attacks in D&D(and in real life) that are not firearms that have a hell of a lot more knockback potential.