Originally posted by Twilight Herald
I love the idea of the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage class, but I find it very odd that the Solamnics are excluding sorcerers. Given the long history of hostility to the Robed Orders, even White Robes, why would the Knights accept a Wizard of High Sorcery, who necessarily has to give his first loyalty to the Conclave and Solinari, and reject, for example, a Lawful Good sorcerer who has no such outside allegiances, and who could in fact probably dedicate himself to Kiri-Jolith or Habbakuk as an Arcane Devotee or similar concept?
There's no problem, I would say, for sorcerers to be members of the Solamnic Auxiliary during the pre-War of Souls period of the Age of Mortals. After all, it was a character role in the Heroes of Sorcery boxed set for the Fifth Age Dragonlance product line. However, with the return of the gods, the tradition-minded Solamnics would probably be much less likely to accept an arcane spellcaster who doesn't get his or her power from the moons, especially when it's explained that sorcerers are renegades in the eyes of the Tower wizards.
Cheers,
Cam
You have to also remember that a sorcerer is more likely to not follow rules and order, whereas a wizard is more lawfully-minded.
Also, the Knights of Solamnia are very tradition-driven. As such, they would fall back on the traditions of the past in regards to arcane spellcasters. Most notable of which, of course, is Magius. It could be as well that only having wizards post-WoS is a way to pay tribute to Magius.
If you want a sorcerer to join, though, there's nothing wrong with that. Just remember that he would have to contend with any White Robes who joined the Solamnic Auxiliary.
The knighthood would value a sorcerer who, as mentioned above, is not tied to any other organization, who puts the knighthood first, and who pays homage to the Solamnic Triumvirate. Sorcerers also have the benefit of casting on the fly, so they wouldn't have those nasty spellbooks to contend with.
If you guys ever get a chance to play a SAM, I highly recommend it.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The knighthood would value a sorcerer who, as mentioned above, is not tied to any other organization, who puts the knighthood first, and who pays homage to the Solamnic Triumvirate. Sorcerers also have the benefit of casting on the fly, so they wouldn't have those nasty spellbooks to contend with.
Not that it's much of a triumvirate at this point.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Not that it's much of a triumvirate at this point.
Cheers,
Cam
True enough, although Paladine would still be honored for his sacrifice.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
You have to also remember that a sorcerer is more likely to not follow rules and orders, whereas a wizard is more lawfully-minded.
I take it that you mean that that is the view taken by the knights, and not that there are few actual lawful sorcerors (now that's a lot of thats). ;)
The response of a sorcerer in the Solamnic Auxiliary to the slander from a White Robe that he is a renegade, should be to present to the Knights the exact facts of the matter : a Renegade is a wizard who abuses, or who taps unlawfully, the magic of the moons. Since ( one assumes ) the rituals that the WOHS use to strip wizardly magic from renagades don't work on sorcerers, the whole situation is moot.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
Out of curiosity, when did the Knights start predicating membership in their own ranks on the whims of a god ( Solinari ) and an Order ( the White Robes ) to whom they have never been particularly friendly?
Oh, some time after the War of Souls, I think.
And the Solamnic Auxuliary mages aren't really more than honorary members of the Knights of Solamnia. They belong to the Solamnic Auxuliary, not the knighthood itself.
Originally posted by jonesy
I take it that you mean that that is the view taken by the knights, and not that there are few actual lawful sorcerors (now that's a lot of thats). ;)
I mean it from both the knightly point of view and from a background perspective.
From the Player's Handbook, page 53...
"Sorcery favors the free, chaotic, creative spirit over the disciplined mind, so sorcerers tend slightly toward chaof over law."
I don't remember the exact source, but I've seen other Dragonlance sources that say that sorcerers favor chaos over law. This would, of course, coincide with the idea that the power of Chaos boosts sorcery to a usable level. So in those regards, it makes sense for sorcerers to be less structured.
This isn't to say that sorcerers cannot be lawful, just that they favor chaos.
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
Out of curiosity, when did the Knights start predicating membership in their own ranks on the whims of a god ( Solinari ) and an Order ( the White Robes ) to whom they have never been particularly friendly?
Times change. Remember, the Measure has been revised, which set the foundations of the Solamnic Auxiliary. It is only now that we're seeing White Robes join the ranks of this Auxiliary.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
However White Sorcerer, they are considered members of the Knighthood, given equal status to Squires of the Crown I believe....not that this is at all fair to the mage...since well, I can see a SAM becoming much more powerful than any old squire....but it is some status of membership
Right, a SAM would be considered equal to a Squire of Crown. It should be noted that a SAM has to take the Knight's Trials as well.
I have this story in mind for a SAM, which I call Test and Trial (or something to that effect).
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
I suppose my main gripe with the Only White Robe rule is this : historically the Solamnic Knights have always distrusted the White Robes. Along come a bunch of arcane spellcasters ( sorcerers ) who can devote themselves entirely to the Knighthood and its gods, with no question of outside loyalty, and the Knighthood excludes them?!
That's a very good point. And really, if you think that's the way it should be, then feel free to implement that in your games.
Remember, knights are distrustful of arcane magic no matter what. Even though arcane spellcasters are now being allowed to be SAMs, there's still an air of distrust. Each SAM will have to prove himself time and again.
What sorcerers have the knights known in the early Age of Mortals? There were those at the Academy of Sorcery, but that's gone now. Many of the sorcerers they encounter these days are either free spirits who owe allegiance to nobody, or are members of the Knights of the Thorn. Maybe there's the occasional good sorcerer, but that's not enough to counter-balance the Grey Robes.
Then one day, the moons of magic are back in the sky, and wizards start reappearing. Knights don't trust wizards, but they realize that wizards are part of an order that keeps magic under control, and they follow Solinari, the son of Paladine and brother to Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk. And while the internal trust isn't there, the Measure now allows for them, and the knights see them as a "necessary evil" in fighting the Thorn Knights.
Basically, I can see it either way. Age of Mortals has the SAM as being a White Robe, but if you feel a sorcerer would do just as well, then go for it!
However White Sorcerer, they are considered members of the Knighthood, given equal status to Squires of the Crown I believe....not that this is at all fair to the mage...since well, I can see a SAM becoming much more powerful than any old squire....but it is some status of membership
This makes so much more sense once you realise that SAM means Solamnic Auxiliary Mage, not Surface to Air Missile.
Think I might try and wake up now, instead.
Remember, knights are distrustful of arcane magic no matter what.
Presumably these same knights are going to be distrustful, in a rough order, of non-noble Solamnics, non-native Solamnics, non-Solamnics, non-males, non-humans? I'd've thought since the Orders have opended up a bit more, to let in new blood that's grown up in the ever-changing times, would be more accepting of magic, if only because so many of the knights are not the traditional blind fools of Huma's time to the War of the Lance.
Originally posted by pddisc
Presumably these same knights are going to be distrustful, in a rough order, of non-noble Solamnics, non-native Solamnics, non-Solamnics, non-males, non-humans? I'd've thought since the Orders have opended up a bit more, to let in new blood that's grown up in the ever-changing times, would be more accepting of magic, if only because so many of the knights are not the traditional blind fools of Huma's time to the War of the Lance.
The knights are more open, otherwise you wouldn't have wizards in the Solamnic Auxiliary at all.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The knights are more open, otherwise you wouldn't have wizards in the Solamnic Auxiliary at all.
Thank God for that! Seriously, the whole "Magic Bad!" ideal of the Knights was getting really old. Heck, they turned away white robes, there old patron's son, and their new(for lack of a better word) patron's brother.
...this has nothing to do with the fact that my character is a white robe. He is an elf too...
See the thing is the Knights (not the kinghood officially) that mistrusted the mages. I mean when your a soldier whofights the enemy hand to hand with the thickness of your breastplate and your skill with a swrod the only thing keeping you alive, you're probably going to be a bit resentful of those that are tossing fireballs and lightning bolts.
But the thing is the knighthood has worked with mages throughout the ages regaurdless.
I mean Vinus Solamnus the founder of the knights went to war with War Wizards under his command, and he trusted them with his life, as shown at the Battle of The Crossing when he rode out alone in front of his army into enemy archer range (elven archers no less) with only the Wizard's magic keeping him from becoming a pincushion (which he would have become... considering an arrow bounced harmlessly off his eye if memory serves).
Though none of the Wizards were his friends of even close comrades, he never shyed away from trusting them and using them to full effect.
In the time of Huma, Wizards rode with the Solamnic armies to war, and I'm NOT talking about Magius. Red Wizards (Red robes no less, they didn't even need to be white) were with the Solamnic army trying to fight off the Renegades mystical storm before Huma and Kaz were rescued by Magius.
It wasn't untill the time of the Kingpriest who decided that Arcane magic was blasphemy were the mages ever considered enemies of the Knighthood.
Its about time the Solamnic's recognized the Wizards that fight beside them in an official copasity.
Originally posted by Nived
In the time of Huma, Wizards rode with the Solamnic armies to war, and I'm NOT talking about Magius. Red Wizards (Red robes no less, they didn't even need to be white) were with the Solamnic army trying to fight off the Renegades mystical storm before Huma and Kaz were rescued by Magius.
Sure, both Red Robes and White Robes aided the Knights of Solamnia in the time of Huma. This was moreso to fight against the Black Robes and Brown Robe Renegades.
Even at that, it specifically says in the text of Legend of Huma that knights have always distrusted the use of magic. In this case, it's a necessary evil in order to fight against the evil wizards.
That said, if the Knights are according Solinari his rightful place in the pantheon then I could certainly see the Knights supporting the White Robed Mages over sorcerers, given that sorcery has hints of the fact that it is an extremely dangerous and entropic form of magical energy.
Otherwise if knights "distrust all magic" as being dangerous and unnatural, I don't see why they would accord the white robes any more respect than they would the sorcerers, especially since the fact that the charge of the white robes being in league with the forces of evil (the black robes) can be rather fairly leveled against them.
Myself, I have the Knights of the Sword as being mystics only (who serve all the gods of good, including Solinari) so it all fits together well. I wanted to disassociate the Knights of the Sword with Kiri-Jolith for the simple reason that I wanted to explore the crusading church itself, and the Knights of the Sword always overshadowed it or made it irrelevant by filling the same niche in the campaign setting.
Since so often people characterize them as enemies rather than reluctant allies.
Originally posted by raistlinrox
What exactly is the Auxillary anyway?
The Solamnic Auxiliary was created due to the revised Measure, and includes roles that normally wouldn't make it in the knighthood. White Robe mages are allowed in, and I imagine other roles (such as clerics of Mishakal) would be allowed too. These are generally support roles.
Really, the Auxiliary isn't too detailed at this time.