Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Feb 23, 2004 17:14:23	So, I've been gathering materials to start a Mystara campaign... in the good old Grand Duchy. Now, our group has all played together for about 8 years - Vampire, Call of Cthulhu, Mutants and Masterminds. My first foray back into fantasy RPGs was with the Midnight campaign I've been running. Basically, I realized Mystara is a kick-booty campaign setting, with like 25 years of source material, a few awesome campaign arcs, etc. And the world supports the kinds of wars, politics, and higher level action I want to DM. So here's the question: I've never played in a world that is quite so over the top with ultra-high level characters all over the place. More specifically, what kind of effect does this high availability of curing and magic have on the world? I'm sure this has been discussed - I sure wish the old boards were available. Example: Karameikos alone has a few Patriarchs. Do they have lines of people perpetually outside their door looking for healing and 'raise deads'? And how do 'lawful' clerics turn away the needy? Obviously, not everyone can get raised, all the time. Just curious what some other DMs have done. I played in Mystara as a young'un, but this is our first foray back into this game setting now that everyone is old and jaded. Thanks.
#2 marc Feb 24, 2004 0:17:14	I have to disagree a little with the over the top high powered npcs littering the world. If you are looking at at the old D&D products don't forget that the upper level limit is 36 not 20 like in 2E or 3E. So it soon becomes apparent that an npc listed as 20th level is no more than an equivalent 10-11th level pc in 3E (I know the conversion is not quite accurate but that is a discussion for another topic) Secondly, mystara has that lital word 'immortal', generally if a pc or npc for that matter gets to the lofty levels of maxing out ehir levels they generally either proceed to be sponsored for immortality, die of old age or dissapear for whatever reasons. As most know immortals are forbidden to directly intefere with the known world hence are effectively taken out of play (not always true I know) Now, to your actual question. The way I handle this issie in my campaign is fairly simple. I consider all churches to have low level clerics who do the odd curing throughout the country or whatever. Anything that needs a high level cleric to cure, well if the inflicted is not a follower of the church (worship the same immortals) then generally the church will not heal them... if they are of the same faith then a special 'favour' will be asked by the church (could be a donation or whatever). How does this solve the problem of line ups outside the church? Well, it doesn't really and no matter what you do in a magical world you can never mitigate this problem. Hope this helps even though I rambled on a little
#3 byron-s_ghost Feb 24, 2004 1:37:09	In a way, Marc's answer is similar to my way of thinking. If a commoner or merchant gets a minor wound, or a disease, or whatever, they'll go to their local priest and get it cured. Hence, they won't die from it, and it seems to me that the mortality rates on Mystara would be much closer to our own world than the middle ages (and most aging charts I've seen seem to back this up). Thus, if people aren't dying all over the place like they were during the Black Death, raise dead spells become something used more for adventurers and others in "high-risk" professions. There wouldn't be lines of commoners with bodies around the block, because commoners have the brains to run from something that can swallow them whole in an instant, while an adventurer would probably wonder what sort of loot was in the beast's stomach. In my games the church would charge what the recipient of the spell could afford. For commoners, this would probably be some sort of service, such as spending a couple of weeks every year collecting alms or whatnot. For adventurers, it's a load of gold, or the lifting of an ancient curse, etc. At any rate, I've always assumed that a high-magic world means that fatal accidents are much more rare, and thus people are less likely to seek out raise dead services. There's also a quesion of belief- in my Glantri campaign, for instance, the only real divine magic came from the Church of Asterius, who got all the licensing and contracts to be the first divine magic business in Glantri City. You better believe they charged some steep prices- like 4 to 5 times what was listed in the PHB. But, in other lands, more I don't see why more benevolent churches wouldn't cast the spells, especially if it didn't cost them anything (as I don't think it did on OD&D). On the other hand, certain dieties may have access for restricting this spell to followers, or certain patriarchs may restrict it's usage among their churches. I'm certain that Sherlane wouldn't mind raising innocent peasants who died before their time, but someone like Kelvin probably wouldn't give the res to anyone but faithful church members of Thyatian ancestry. One other thing comes into play in high-level campaigns, and that's how to get rid of someone permanently. It make sense that high-level NPCs are going to have access to the same gold, clerics, and resources as the PCs. So things like political assassination or being defeated by a group of heros before opening that gate to the underworld are more minor nusiances than anything. I never had a problem with this, myself, but my games are pretty high-magic. I just think it adds extra mythic elements- instead of just hitting the bad guy, the party has to defeat him and then use various spells/artifacts to ensure that he doesn't come back and attack them with a horde of vampires while they're having a pint at their favorite tavern...
#4 zombiegleemax Feb 24, 2004 14:38:42	One thing to remember about Karameikos is how big and isolated it is. I explain to my players that it's about the size of the state of Mississippi, with about 1/7 the population. Over half that population lives in either Specularum or Kelvin, meaning the rest of the country is barely inhabited. Very few roads exist and those that do aren't very good. The common peasants out in the Traladaran countryside aren't going to have any access to clerical healing at all. Also remember in the original OD&D Mystara 1st level clerics couldn't cast ANY spells, making it likely that the clergy in the far flung areas might not be able to heal anyone. I don't know which edition you're playing. If you're playing 2e or 3e, you might decide to mimic this by making a big portion of the clergy non-magical commoners rather than clerics. The final thing to remember is that there is a lot of religious prejudice in Karameikos. Certain members of the Karameikan church would rather spit on a Traladaran than heal him. Vice versa for certain members of the Traladaran church. Mixed blood characters may have problems with both groups. This isn't even considering the more extreme religious groups like the Order of the Griffon and the Cult of Halav. R.A.
#5 zombiegleemax Feb 24, 2004 16:45:30	You guys raise some great points regarding the ratio of clerics to the population, and the scarcity of the higher level clerics in Karameikos. I'm just thinking ahead to the actual stories we'll start with - I'll probably adapt Night of the Vampire back to Old D&D, use a modified Veiled Society, and even Davinios' Complaint (an adventure idea in the Gazetteer). A big part of the game will involve the politics around the Traladaran noble families and their attempts to undermine the Duke. That being said... they're all wealthy, connected, and ostensibly have strong ties to the churches. The availability of raise dead undermines the tension of Davinios' Complaint, if the Duke or someone else makes the command that he be raised after he's murdered... or Boris' attempts to poison all his Torenescu family members fall flat if the other family members just spring for a raise dead. Obviously the designers of those adventure seeds expected them to be true murder-mysteries - so I'm looking for justifications as to why the raise dead option wouldn't be employed. So far what I'm considering, is that even though those spells are 'on the lists' they're only available to the Patriarchs as miracles... meaning, the Patriarch would need to pray, and the immortal would need to grant it specifically for use under limited circumstances. Rarely would a raise dead be granted, though the prayer's for it would be common. It would make death a little more unescapable for most of the people... ostensibly, very high level heroes could be beloved of their patron immortals and might break the rules a little bit. I like your ideas on first aid, healing, disease, life expectancy. Really changes my view of the day-to-day of the setting.
#6 marc Feb 24, 2004 18:10:04	I use a special rule around raise dead to circumvent some of the issues in regards to constant raising. The patron immortal of the cleric raising determines if he/she/it wishes that dead pc/npc to be raised. It has to serve it's purpose in some way or another to grant the speel to the priest. To me, it's not good enough that the deceased was just a follower, there is required to be a good reason. Therefore, IMC it's harder to be raised by a priest of differing faith. Now you may say, it's always in a entropic immortals interest to raise their followers to do their bidding. Immortals see the inhabitants of mystara as pawns in their own struggles. Entropic immortals may very well consider that an npc has failed them and such will not grant a raise dead spell for them. Basically, you can come up with numourous reasons as to why a raise dead spell is not granted to a priest to do the raising...
#7 Hugin Mar 08, 2004 22:46:18	One of the things that I always used in my campaigns in regards to restricting the use of raising the dead was the beleifs of the clerics order. I assumed that most religions beleived "you have one life to live, then you are judged by [insert Immortal here]". Or, they beleive in reincarnation, or what have you. Almost all the religions or philosophies universally agree that death is not the end. So, to raise someone from the dead would, in one degree or another, interfere with that person's afterlife. That could have dire consequences if that person's spirit went to be in the service of his Immortal, or what have you. Therefore, IMC, common folk including the vast majority of low-level PCs, would not be even considered for resurrection; regardless of the offer of gold. And in addition, a cleric would spend a significant amount of time seeking guidance form his Immortal and at the very least his fellow clergy. As I tell any cleric IMC, "your Immortal has granted you divine magic, not for you to be like him or her, but to serve and advance their purposes".
#8 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2004 3:33:18	The availability of raise dead undermines the tension of Davinios' Complaint, if the Duke or someone else makes the command that he be raised after he's murdered... You could also employ it to raise the tension. The Traladarans, perhaps, have no cleric in the area capable of the spell - culturally speaking the Traladaran religion would be strongest farther away from Specularum, mostly in the areas around Kelven and Luln. It would take a couple of days for a message to reach either of these spots and a couple more for the cleric to arrive. Plus, say, a day or so before the message is sent, and another day to convince the cleric it's important enough to come ... after all, Patriarchs have better things to do than run about the countryside raising every dead innkeep. So 6 days all in all, and let us say the Patriarch that was sent for had been away on business, and only his assistant were available ... an 8th level cleric. He arrives, casts the spell, and it does not work. Tensions rise. The Traladarans begin to demand that a cleric from the Thyatian church ought to raise him ... but, the Thyatian sentiment is that the Traladarans will then have the Thyatian church at their beck and call, and if they get away with this demand they might get bolder. Perhaps too some of the Thyatians believe some of the stories floating about, and think that this will lead to reduced taxes for Traladaran merchants, if Davinos is brought back and can present the issue with so much public fury behind him. The church feels that the cure (bringing Davinos back) might be worse than the disease, and so they refuse, claiming that after all the time the Traladarans have wasted, it has been too long and it is no longer possible to raise Davinos. Thus you eliminate the spell from the equation.
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2004 12:11:40	Good stuff Edge, I like the idea of using the competing churches to raise the tension in the situation. Fits into the long range plan for a Karameikan campaign, which involves the Holy War between the two churches. I do think I'll have to take the approach that raise dead is only granted to further the specific immortals goals, and can't generally be asked for by a cleric 'in advance' and used at will.
#10 Hugin Mar 10, 2004 20:30:23	Agreed; I like the responses of the churches to the whole situation. It shows their self-interests can be more important than "truth" or even in "doing what is right". Edge also brings in the cultural conflict in Karameikos which is always resting just beneath the surface of the society. Presently IMC, the PCs have just returned to Karameikos after having been away for awhile in Darokin and Atruaghin, and this type of atmoshere is just what I'd love to have them face.
#11 npc_dave Mar 11, 2004 19:50:47	Some good points about raise dead have been brought up here, and I will add my own two cents on this. This is what I do in a Mystara campaign. First, in general, high level clerics are found in the big cities and highly populated areas. So in the wilderness and outlying areas, the default assumption is that raise dead is not available. Now in cities, most likely there will be clerics who can raise dead. They generally raise those whose died in unusual circumstances and were young. They normally require permission from the family. Now as for murders, this would lead to one thing. The murderer would have to hide or destroy the body. If hiding the body, they might also use some magic to obscure scrying or detection, including locate object. Spoilers-- I never ran Davinos complaint, so that is something you will have to tackle on your own. I did run B6 as is, and the players find the dead body that the Veiled Society buried. I had the girl's family out of the city at the time, so the patriarch was reluctant to raise her body right away. This was an excuse for the players to solve the mystery themselves. It reduced urgency a bit, but the players appreciated the consistency. Another thing you could try is that the patriarch is blackmailed and refuses/is unable to raise the girl.
#12 byron-s_ghost Mar 12, 2004 0:12:51	Well, as far as people being communed with or raised after being murdered, the usual trick is to restrict their perceptions of the event. The spirit/raised person will only know what they saw- if they got hit from behind, or the murderer wore a mask, then there won't be much more information the PCs could get than if the victim were still completely dead. Also, IMO, just because the victim is raised doesn't make the murder any less serious. The family would still want some sort of justice, and authorities could still consider it to be a murder, depending on local laws. So, the victim could still get raised and the mystery could still be in place. This might be handy if the groups get stuck- she could "suddenly remember something" that gets the party over a hurdle they haven't been able to solve. Otherwise, the story with the girl's family, or the blackmail, are also good ideas.
#13 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 9:17:40	Yes, this is another good point. In the Davinos' Complaint scenario, what good would raising him do? Or even speak with dead? Thyatians killed him, if he is asked who did it. This isn't going to reduce tensions. And if he is raised, it doesn't change the fact he was murdered. This is still an aggrievance, and it wouldn't make the Traladaran population feel any more secure. They would still think that Thyatian thugs might kill them if they complain about their situation, and they're not going to settle down just because there is the possibility that the Duke might order a cleric to raise them (if there are enough riots in Specularum). Although being killed might not be final in Mystara for persons of sufficient importance or connections, not everyone can count on it, and being murdered is still a terrifying experience. Torture isn't final either but it is nonetheless quite intimidating and can lead to alot of civil unrest.
#14 Hugin Mar 25, 2004 17:34:58	If anybody has any comments on running Davinos' Complaint I wouldn't mind hearing them. The PCs IMC have recently returned to Karameikos after almost 2 game years and will be travelling from Threshold to Specularum (1004 AC IMC). I plan on running a slightly modified "Davinos' Complaint" when they get there. Any insight/warning/ideas would be welcomed. As a side note, did anybody notice that in Gaz 1's write-up of the Complaint, Davinos is spelled "Davinov" towards the end? Just curious which it was *supposed* to be (Davinov does sound more Traladaran).
#15 zombiegleemax Mar 25, 2004 22:53:40	Originally posted by Hugin As a side note, did anybody notice that in Gaz 1's write-up of the Complaint, Davinos is spelled "Davinov" towards the end? Just curious which it was *supposed* to be (Davinov does sound more Traladaran). Maybe "Davinos" is the Thyatian pronunciation?
#16 Hugin Mar 26, 2004 18:30:04	Maybe "Davinos" is the Thyatian pronunciation? That's a good answer. Never thought about it that way.
#17 havard Apr 01, 2004 8:45:03	The patron immortal of the cleric raising determines if he/she/it wishes that dead pc/npc to be raised. It has to serve it's purpose in some way or another to grant the speel to the priest. To me, it's not good enough that the deceased was just a follower, there is required to be a good reason. Therefore, IMC it's harder to be raised by a priest of differing faith. In 3e, the Cleric will have to sacrifice XP to raise the character in question. This will make sure that the Cleric will have some doubts on whom to bring back to life, even if paid. Clerics usually care about more than money anyways. The character must be of the same faith as the Cleric in question, often the same Immortal, but related ones will usually be ok. If my PCs ever reach that high a level, I might rule that the XP cost is doubled to raise someone from a different faith... In OD&D, you had to be of pretty high a level to raise someone IIRC. In fact, Im not sure if any of the NPCs in Karameikos are of high enough a level to raise anyone, although I might be mistaken on this point... Havard
#18 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2004 10:03:51	Originally posted by Edgewaters The Traladarans begin to demand that a cleric from the Thyatian church ought to raise him ... but, the Thyatian sentiment is that the Traladarans will then have the Thyatian church at their beck and call, and if they get away with this demand they might get bolder. Perhaps too some of the Thyatians believe some of the stories floating about, and think that this will lead to reduced taxes for Traladaran merchants, if Davinos is brought back and can present the issue with so much public fury behind him. The church feels that the cure (bringing Davinos back) might be worse than the disease, and so they refuse, claiming that after all the time the Traladarans have wasted, it has been too long and it is no longer possible to raise Davinos. Thus you eliminate the spell from the equation. Hello, There is actually no need to make it that convoluted. A member of the church of Thyatis could offer to cast a raise dead spell; however, a dogmatic member of Davinos' family might insist that the spell should be performed by a proper Traldaran cleric. Of course, not everyone is going to know all of this unless they do some digging. The popular story might be closer to Edgewaters suggestion, that the Thyatians refused to do anything because they did not want the Traladaran merchants to receive just compensation for the wrongs they suffered under the hands of the Thyatians. I am sure that the Veiled Society will do all they can to help spread this version of events. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler
#19 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2004 10:08:21	Hello Again, Another thought on raise dead spells. While it does not have too much affect on the mechanics of the game, I have always operated under the assumption that raising dead costs the immortal involved a permanent expenditure of immortal power. Basically, the immortal is giving up a portion of his or her life in order to allow a mortal another chance. If you let your player characters' understand this, they will not be as inclined to consider using this spell at the drop of a hat. Regards and Best Wishes, Donald Eric Kesler
#20 havard Apr 05, 2004 8:55:42	Another variant of the Raise dead spell could be a temporary deal. If the character in question was killed before he could complete a specific quest, perhaps the clerics would allow him to be returned to life for a short while. Thus he would be allowed to destroy his enemy, avenge his family, or complete whatever task he was set out to do. Many players might enjoy getting a second chance at fulfilling what they originally set out to do, even if knowing that they would have to give up the character once the campaign was over. Just a thought. Havard PS: I've been watching the B5 DVD-series lately, so maybe thats where this idea came from...