"The Champions, meanwhile, each assumed control of one of the great citites of the tyr region. They became the sorcerer kings. With the aid of a magical artifact called the Dark Lens, Borys tied the sorcerer kings together by connecting them to all elemental planes. They became magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be accessed."
Also from same souce, page 38:
"Although the sorcerer kings are able to endow thier templars with clerical spells, this is a function of thier original linking with the Dark Lens. At that time a vortex opened to the elmental planes..... that linkage is not available to any-one else attempting to become a sorcerer king or dragon.... none but the champions of Raajat have the power to grant clerical spells to minions"
This makes a couple of strong points:
1. Kalak was a champion. He was a Sorcerer King, could grant spells and therefore, according to the above, was a champion. As i've stated before, how he became a champion is the only question; anyone attempting to re-write this particular CORE Darksun fact should think serioulsly about it. Kalak was a core character in the first books, and as such any attempts to re-write him as a non-champion are seriously warping the key concepts presented in the original darksun.
2. Boyrs MAY have known what he was doing - in regards to the elemental vortices the whole "Boyrs tied...." bit makes me think he new what was going on.... maybe he made the spell to attract the living votices deliberatley?
3. The sorcerer kings are tied together - perhaps they cal all be brought back from the dead as long as any one of them are alive? (remember kalak in the grey?)
4. The Dark Lens can assist (aid) in creating a Dragon / SK - but we also know that the elemental magic came from living vortex... given the mixed statements about the dark lens (linked by it, linked with it) perhaps destroying the Dark Lens will rob them of thier dragon hood?
Anyway, i think the above material clearly shows that to be a SM, you had to have been a champion. By all means, re-write HOW they became a champions, but please don't try and wash away the fact that Kalak was a champion, it's canon, it's a fact, and it shouldn't change even if some of you don't like it - not at least in any official or quasi-offical releases.
Finally; after re-reading Boyr's involvement in all this... i came to a rather interesting conclusion:
Boyrs is either a little more cunning or a little more creative than Rajaat. Sure, Rajaat invented magic, but Boyrs may have well figured out how to attract the elemental vortices, make dragons, and trap Rajaat. All signs of an apprentice out-doing his master... maybe not in the outright power stakes, but in the creative and cunning stakes for sure...
feedback please.
By all means, re-write HOW they became a champions, but please don't try and wash away the fact that Kalak was a champion, it's canon, it's a fact, and it shouldn't change even if some of you don't like it - not at least in any official or quasi-offical releases.
This should more properly go into the 'offending' thread dealing with Nyt's take on Kalak (at least, that's what I assume 99.9% correctly that you are refering to).
Rest easy. Its not official, even if Nyt is with the Athas.org team. Its a personal project. Nothing more. If your directing the 'you can't change it' comments to the Athas.org team, please be a little more expicit. If your directing it in general to me, or the rest of the community, then you can the comment and . . . errr, I'll think of something robust and witty, yet emotionally sensitive and unabrasive later.
Boyrs is either a little more cunning or a little more creative than Rajaat. Sure, Rajaat invented magic, but Boyrs may have well figured out how to attract the elemental vortices, make dragons, and trap Rajaat. All signs of an apprentice out-doing his master... maybe not in the outright power stakes, but in the creative and cunning stakes for sure...
Good point. Unless of course Rajaat planned it all from the start. The Clesning Wars, the Champion's Rebellion, his own imprisonment, his inevitable release, the creation of the cerulean storm, Sadira ditching the Dark Lens in the lava plains effectively giving Rajaat access to a near unlimited source of power . . . all the Warbringer has to do now is wait until the storm cools the lava into hardened obsidian and blam-o, we're talking a great flood that makes the biblical one look like a touch of april showers. Its all going acording to plan.
That is one thing that did, admittadly worry me, with articles by athas.org people appearing to re-write core concepts. Basically, i think the athas.org team have a done a mighty fine job, with some pretty stupid contraints on them.
However, in all fairness i really think the most important thing is to keep the new version of Darksun as close to the original as possible. It's easier to defend "We did it this way because that's how it was in 2e" than to defend "We re-wrote it in 3e this way because 2e had problems....." INMHO. Add new things, create new idea's but keep the core stable - Kalak being a champion is one of those, as is his status as a sorcerer king.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Ummm . . . if I want to rewrite Rajaat as a giant killer rabbit with big, nasty, pointy teeth, I'm at the liberty to do so in my game. If I post about it and a few people like it, they too are more then within their rights to adopt the change for their own game. If your not too keen on Rajaat taking after the great Monty Python Epic Level Vorpal Bunny, your also well within your rights to say so. Just don't ask me, or someone else, to change our mind.
This should more properly go into the 'offending' thread dealing with Nyt's take on Kalak (at least, that's what I assume 99.9% correctly that you are refering to).
Rest easy. Its not official, even if Nyt is with the Athas.org team. Its a personal project. Nothing more. If your directing the 'you can't change it' comments to the Athas.org team, please be a little more expicit. If your directing it in general to me, or the rest of the community, then you can the comment and . . . errr, I'll think of something robust and witty, yet emotionally sensitive and unabrasive later.
Good point. Unless of course Rajaat planned it all from the start. The Clesning Wars, the Champion's Rebellion, his own imprisonment, his inevitable release, the creation of the cerulean storm, Sadira ditching the Dark Lens in the lava plains effectively giving Rajaat access to a near unlimited source of power . . . all the Warbringer has to do now is wait until the storm cools the lava into hardened obsidian and blam-o, we're talking a great flood that makes the biblical one look like a touch of april showers. Its all going acording to plan.
Nyt can write all the stuff that he wants... maaaaaad props... but notice that flip and jon don't really get involved in his personal threads about champions and such... he's just trying to stimulate conversation...
correct me if i'm wrong but nobody is compiling the complete history and bible o athas where this proposed information would become official
as not to be confused with sarcasm... only the first sentence is joking
Nyt... keep your head down and your keys clickity clickin... and mage up when you have a sec
Originally posted by kefka
correct me if i'm wrong but nobody is compiling the complete history and bible o athas where this proposed information would become official
Actually, I thought that The WarOverlord was handling that....
(j/k)
(T.W.O. - please don't take offense to my joke, we don't need the little arguement of ours to spread, k?)
Originally posted by Jaanos
That is one thing that did, admittadly worry me, with articles by athas.org people appearing to re-write core concepts.
I really hope this isn't directed at me.
How many times do I have to say it?
Good point. Unless of course Rajaat planned it all from the start. The Clesning Wars, the Champion's Rebellion, his own imprisonment, his inevitable release, the creation of the cerulean storm, Sadira ditching the Dark Lens in the lava plains effectively giving Rajaat access to a near unlimited source of power . . . all the Warbringer has to do now is wait until the storm cools the lava into hardened obsidian and blam-o, we're talking a great flood that makes the biblical one look like a touch of april showers. Its all going acording to plan.
I see I'm not the only one who gets these kind of horrible ideas
I see I'm not the only one who gets these kind of horrible ideas
Naa, it was on old mega adventure idea I had to wipe out my high level PCs with a cataclysmic bang. Too bad they got bumped before I could ever run the adventure.
Okay, as for the fact that Borys gave the SKs their "spell-granting abilities," I'd say it's far, far more likely that Rajaat did it and Borys simply claimed credit later.
In Lynn Abbey's book (debateable canon, I know, on some points), Myron was granting spells - that was loooooong before the champions overthrew Rajaat.
On to one of my favorite subjects: dead champions. In my book, only the champions that are killed by either Rajaat or other champions are truly dead. The ones that were killed by "bit players" have a good chance of coming back. Kalak, for instance, as well as Borys, Abalach-Re, Sacha, and Wyan all likely had contingency plans in place in the unlikely event that they were "killed."
The SKs had thousands of years to plan, roughly 2-4,000 depending on which one you're talking about (most of the champions were pre-Hamanu, so the 4,000 is closer). That's a long time to think about mortality and even longer to plan for some "mishap" along the way. As I've stated before, in my campaigns, Kalak often comes back. Granted, it's not an easy process, but it is a possibility.
My thought is this: "if I were a player, and "x" were my character, what would I do?"
Well, eventually, that DM is going to kill my supercharacter, so I have to plan accordingly. You don't think the SKs had one contingency plan in place in case some slave got happy and lucky?
I think not.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
On to one of my favorite subjects: dead champions. In my book, only the champions that are killed by either Rajaat or other champions are truly dead. The ones that were killed by "bit players" have a good chance of coming back. Kalak, for instance, as well as Borys, Abalach-Re, Sacha, and Wyan all likely had contingency plans in place in the unlikely event that they were "killed."
... Except that Abalache-Re and Borys were killed by Rajaat, via the goop from the Scourge of Rkhard. The role of those ex-slaves was mostly just delivering the sword. Rajaat's essence took care of the rest.
.... Of course, in that case, whether or not those two are actually dead, or have simply been "taken" is open for interpretation ....
[doesn't get it]
î can´t quote the source, but i think i read something about the two heads in kalaks possesion granting the spells to his templars, not he himself. so this would implie taht he was not a sk. right??????
The two heads were the beheaded Champions Sacha and Wyan who were decapitated during the revolt by the Champions against Rajaat (Sacha and Wyan stayed loyal to Rajaat). Officially, in the revised box set (core rules taking canon precedence over any other source) Kalak is listed as being a Champion. The novels though, put a kink in things in several sections by describing Kalak as a fake Champion. Both The Cerulean Storm as well as Rise and Fall of a Dragon King talk about the Tyrant of Tyr having been a pretender. So basically, its up to you to decide in your game what is true and what isn't. It is fun to speculate one way or the other as you can see from the popularity of several threads regarding the idea of Kalak having been a fake.