My first thoughts are the physical transformation aspects to be 3 multistage templates ala savage progressions and contuinued progession as wiz/psi for the rest.
http://darkhelm.net/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=3&MMN_position=3:3
http://darksun.cyberdark.com.br/
I'm not certain that prestige races can truly add enough power.
I was looking at the Mind Mage from Dragon (318?) the Illithid Psi-mage and think that it could be a great start for one class. although I can't figure out how they get a caster/manifestor level of 23 in the last example for twin wells same source?
Really I was hoping to breakdown the Dragon/avagnion to develop some alternate advanced beings.
Getting back to gestalt builds I think with the proper requirements 9th level spells, 9th level powers, we could develop a single gestalt prestige class possibly based on the mind mage that would take care of the other aspects of the transformation
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
And Amarouk has posted his take on them as well:
http://darksun.cyberdark.com.br/
I like this conversion system as well... but, on the Avangion, what would a DR 50/+5 translate to in 3.5? That seems rather...high.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
And Amarouk has posted his take on them as well:
http://darksun.cyberdark.com.br/
Very close to what I had in mind.
The dragonking:
It seems confusing that the Dragon gains 5d12 per three levels.
This could be simplified with some attackbonuses in addition to the extra toughness feats. But that could make the Dragon too weak, any thoughts?
I've just barely gone through it all, so I'm still absorbing all the information, but the dragon seems quite a bit more powerful than the avangion at first glance... In Dragon Kings, one of the primary advantages a fully formed avangion had over the dragons were their weapon immunites. I believe they required a +5 to hit, whereas the dragon only required a +2. The disparity between their HP always was not as large, being that they were both on a d4 HD.
From what I can tell here, the dragon has nearly the DR of an avangion, but has a d12 HD, nasty physical attacks, and one helluva breath weapon. The avangion has slightly higher DR, great saving throws, and a globe of invulnerability, but honestly that will probably not help much when in an epic-level encounter (although it could be quite beneficial if two armies were fighting).
I'm just curious what your thoughts are on this? Is it a goal to have the dragons and avangions "balanced" per se, and do you believe they are? It may be that I'm compeltely overlooking something as well, because I said I'm still absorbing all the info
Originally posted by Porkchops
I just went through your system, xlorep. I don't think it's too confusing, per se, but something that would have helped me (speaking of the avangion specifically here) is to have the bonuses for things such as saving throws listed directly on the charts. As it's currently set up, it will list "saving throw increase" on the chart, then I have to scroll back up to see what the saving throw amount is. Not a big deal at all, but it did make it a little tougher to grasp the concept because I had to keep referring to different sections of the page.
I did it that way to make the chart be less cluttered. I've considered doing it the other way as well.
I've just barely gone through it all, so I'm still absorbing all the information, but the dragon seems quite a bit more powerful than the avangion at first glance... In Dragon Kings, one of the primary advantages a fully formed avangion had over the dragons were their weapon immunites. I believe they required a +5 to hit, whereas the dragon only required a +2. The disparity between their HP always was not as large, being that they were both on a d4 HD.
Yea, but there is no "weapon immunities" in 3e/3.5e. Damage reduction helps, but isn't quite the same thing. IIRC, I have a 5 higher bonus for Avangions, which makes them 1 "category" higher than the dragon at each progression. It's still in the works however.
From what I can tell here, the dragon has nearly the DR of an avangion, but has a d12 HD, nasty physical attacks, and one helluva breath weapon. The avangion has slightly higher DR, great saving throws, and a globe of invulnerability, but honestly that will probably not help much when in an epic-level encounter (although it could be quite beneficial if two armies were fighting).
Well, the Avangion write-up isn't quite completed.
I'm just curious what your thoughts are on this? Is it a goal to have the dragons and avangions "balanced" per se, and do you believe they are? It may be that I'm compeltely overlooking something as well, because I said I'm still absorbing all the info
I've been working along the lines that the dragons are physically much more powerful than an avangion. However I've been thinking of making the Avangion be more powerful in magic/psionics. as such, my Avangion Magic page, which I haven't gotten the chance to write-up currently, will hopefully help alleviate much of this. The dragon progression also has a few other limitations (up until they reach the final stage), such as suddenly being afflicted by the pain & suffering they endure during the process, while the Avangion doesn't have such things. I know they aren't balanced at this time, but I'm working on it.
Making the Dragons physically impressive, and then making them somewhat similar in their attacks to other "standard" dragons was one step, luckily a fairly easy one, as dragon attacks are so well documented in the Monster Manual. avangions, however, don't have the same match in another book that the Dragons have. So, much of what I want to present is things I'm having to develop from scratch, basing it off of what I feel an Avangion should have, or what their role overall would be as an opposition to dragons.
Unlike what other proposals for Dragons should be, mine makes them into something closer to an Epic Dragon than a "normal" (non-epic) Dragon. My reasons are simple - it takes an epic level character to achieve the metamorphosis, why would they be changing into something inferior to an epic creature? Of course, I have to then build the Avangion up to an Epic-scale as well.
Ideas I've had for Avangions is to make them less and less reliant on external energy for casting their spells. Stage-1 Avangions treat Desolate terrain as Barren, while they treat Barren terrain as Infertile. This means that both Barren and Infertle terrain provide a +0 to Caster Level & DC's for them, while Desolate terrain only gives them a -1 penalty to those checks. Stage-2 Avangions treat Desolate as Infertile as well, meaning that they don't recieve any penalties to their DC or Caster Level checks in any terrain, only bonuses when they are in Fertile or Abundant terrains. Stage-3 treats Infertile, Barren and Desolate terrain as Fertile, which means that they get at least a +1 to Caster Level & Spell DC checks, while Stage-4 treats all terrain as Abundant (automatically recieves a +2 to Caster Level & Spell DC). I was working this angle, with the idea that the Druid which assisted Oronis's conversion to a preserver also influenced the metamorphosis process he developed, and as a result, the Avangion becomes sort of their own personal "Tree of Life", and fuels their own spells from this infinite source they have within.
Another possibility is that unused spell slots each day compounds for Avangions - which means that they get more and more spell slots they could cast, if they don't cast anything in the days prior. Of course, spells that are reassigned (memorizing a different spell) resets this back to the normal amount that day, it can potentially allow an Avangion the ability to cast many more spells than a Dragon. An example would be an Avangion wo has a Maximized, Empowered Fireball prepared in a 8th-level slot. He doesn't cast that spell for 5 days, and then is able to cast the spell up to 6 times if he desires one day, before he'd run out of "charges". If he decides to not cast it those 5 days, then casts it 3 times on the 6th day, he has 3 more casts available on that day, or can wait, and end up with 4 casts available on the 7th day. If he decides to change the spell to something else, he's stuck back to the original wizard limit (1 time per spell slot) for the following day after he memorizes the new spell. In effect, the Avangion becomes a spell-battery for himself, and has the potential of assigning a different spell in each available spell slot he has, then waiting for the charges to increase. I was thinking of extending this to power points as well, by making them, instead of resetting their power points each day to their maximum, rather it is added to their current total each day.
I think that those changes, by themselves, would make the Avangion quite powerful, and am fearing that such changes might tip the scales more in the favor of the Avangion. However, I've felt that the Avangion *should* be weaker than a dragon until the final stage, when they become fully realized in their metamorphosis. As such, I might make the "spell battery" be something that is available to Stage-4 Avangions only.
I hope this wasn't too confusing. I'm still looking for other ways to balance them out. I'm planning on letting Avangions use "Avangion Magic" to have a couple special effects they gain each stage, like how the Dragon Magic is done on my site. What do you think?
Yea, but there is no "weapon immunities" in 3e/3.5e. Damage reduction helps, but isn't quite the same thing. IIRC, I have a 5 higher bonus for Avangions, which makes them 1 "category" higher than the dragon at each progression. It's still in the works however.
I am sorry, I should have been a little more clear here in what I was trying to say. I am aware that the immunities disappeared, but it surprised me that the DR on the dragon and the avangion were both so similar.
Using the mechanics you listed (5pts = 1 category), an avangion would have 15 points more if we were to convert straight across (Which I realize we're not). While I think the Avangion DR is spot on, my first reaction to the Dragon DR was "Wow, that's high, given its offensive capabilities compared to the Avangion".
I also didn't realize that the Avangion is still a work in progress, I had no idea about all the cool ideas that are rattling around in that head of yours. I really like the idea of making the avangion more powerful magically, whereas the dragon has a huge advantage physically (natural attacks, breath weapon, armor, etc). The "spell battery" idea is very cool (although I agree, as listed it might tip the balance too much the other way).
Anyway, thanks a lot for what you've worked out and for clarifying things with me here. I really like your system and plan on using it in my campaign, which is why I was concerned about the Avangion as listed.
The Mind Mage from Dragon Magazine #313 has very interesting class abilities, which would be approriate not for advanced beings in general but for avangions specifically.
Read, if you haven't done it already, the Compensation, Psionic Reinforcement, Focus of Discipline and Twin Wells Same Source class abilities of the Mind Mage.
Those abilities play with the idea of magic and psionics being manifestations of the same power, a concept first exposed in the Dragon-Kings hardbound with the Psionic Enchantments.
Check-it out, seriously
Originally posted by Porkchops
Very very cool ideas, Xlorep, thanks for sharing. I'd also think that an avangion should be weaker than a dragon during intermediate metamorphasis stages, if anything just do to basic physics. The defiler is changing into a physical death machine, while the preserver is moving towards something very fragile.
It also makes it even more of a challenge for an Avangion, since until the final stage, they are really at somewhat of a disadvantage to Dragons. Plus, since I have Dragons designed with the option to "accelerate" their development, while Avangions can't, it also helps give them a little more of a disadvantage.
I am sorry, I should have been a little more clear here in what I was trying to say. I am aware that the immunities disappeared, but it surprised me that the DR on the dragon and the avangion were both so similar.
Using the mechanics you listed (5pts = 1 category), an avangion would have 15 points more if we were to convert straight across (Which I realize we're not). While I think the Avangion DR is spot on, my first reaction to the Dragon DR was "Wow, that's high, given its offensive capabilities compared to the Avangion".
Not quite what I meant. If you look at the DR's found in the MM, you'll see that they are provided at 5-point intervals for creatures. 5, 10, 15, 20, 25. Epic also includes 30 & 35 (maybe). By "category", I meant those intervals. I simply gave the Avangions a little higher DR than the Dragons, once again, IIRC.
I also didn't realize that the Avangion is still a work in progress, I had no idea about all the cool ideas that are rattling around in that head of yours. I really like the idea of making the avangion more powerful magically, whereas the dragon has a huge advantage physically (natural attacks, breath weapon, armor, etc). The "spell battery" idea is very cool (although I agree, as listed it might tip the balance too much the other way).
Well, I had written the Avangion pages in a day, and haven't had much time to look over it, what with personal problems that have been arising as of late. However, I'm not going to simply leave it hanging like that, I'll get it completed when I have the time.
Anyway, thanks a lot for what you've worked out and for clarifying things with me here. I really like your system and plan on using it in my campaign, which is why I was concerned about the Avangion as listed.
No problem, I've actually had a lot of people who seemed to like my system for it.
Originally posted by Pennarin
rwb might have something xlorep.
The Mind Mage from Dragon Magazine #313 has very interesting class abilities, which would be approriate not for advanced beings in general but for avangions specifically.
Read, if you haven't done it already, the Compensation, Psionic Reinforcement, Focus of Discipline and Twin Wells Same Source class abilities of the Mind Mage.
Those abilities play with the idea of magic and psionics being manifestations of the same power, a concept first exposed in the Dragon-Kings hardbound with the Psionic Enchantments.
Check-it out, seriously
I haven't seen a Dragon or Dungeon magazine article in.... well.... It's been close to a decade. However, I'll see if I can track that one down.
Another possibility is that unused spell slots each day compounds for Avangions - which means that they get more and more spell slots they could cast, if they don't cast anything in the days prior.
Wow, I can only see a ton of abuse coming from this idea. If an avangion goes five days without casting, he can cast his full alotment of spells five times over? It would also become a note-taking nightmare attempting to remember (or simply keep track of) what spells have been accumulating in what multiples and which ones have been cast only a few times, but still have some accumulation to go, etc.
I do like the idea of the avangion eventually becoming his or her own tree of life though, so long as the avangion is not a resource to be tapped by other PC spellcasters.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Wow, I can only see a ton of abuse coming from this idea. If an avangion goes five days without casting, he can cast his full alotment of spells five times over? It would also become a note-taking nightmare attempting to remember (or simply keep track of) what spells have been accumulating in what multiples and which ones have been cast only a few times, but still have some accumulation to go, etc.
Yea, I've been wanting to limit it somehow, and make it not so... abuseable or complicated. Still toying with the idea.
I do like the idea of the avangion eventually becoming his or her own tree of life though, so long as the avangion is not a resource to be tapped by other PC spellcasters.
Exactly, the Avangion is their own personal "Tree of Life", nobody else can use them for a resource. I've considered making it possible for an Avangion to supplement their own energy in lieu of another caster's attempt to steal life energy from plants/animals/etc., however it wouild be something that the Avangion would consciously have to do, not something which anyone can just elect to do to them.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I'd suggest asking him (or for him to at least respond to the questions hehe).
Oops, sprry. Did you ask me something? I'm not usually on the boards these days (personal issues, you know).
If anyone has any questions about my conversions, please send me an email to darksun[at]cyberdark.com.br, and I'll be glad to answer them (I check my email one or twice a day becuse of my work).
Thanks and regards to all who visited my site. Commentaries and suggestions are very welcome, both positive and negative (that's the only way to evolve, isn't it? )
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Exactly, the Avangion is their own personal "Tree of Life", nobody else can use them for a resource. I've considered making it possible for an Avangion to supplement their own energy in lieu of another caster's attempt to steal life energy from plants/animals/etc., however it wouild be something that the Avangion would consciously have to do, not something which anyone can just elect to do to them.
Considering the avangion can take energy from inside him instead of outside, he could cast magic on the Obsidian Plains, IIUC.
Hamanu in RaFoaDK could do that also, because he had an immortal essence that would not die and that he could bleed dry.
Considering that and the Player's Option that came out as DS went out, the Sacrifice ability, from Dragon Magazine Annual, then who else would have the ability to take its own life energy to power spells? Perhaps someone with a feat (i.e. Sacrifice), or those with the Champion template?
Sacrifice allowed you to spend hp in exchange of spell slots. Not unlike Jon's druid ability from the Grove Master PrC.