Do the outer planes have edges?
This is probably a stupid question & should be obvious but if there is a reference in a book I'd appreciate someone directing me to it.
What I mean is that when the landscape of an outer plane is flat, is it an infinate distance or are there edges where it would basically be "the end of the earth"? Like when people thought the Earth was flat.
I used to think they were infinate landscapes until I read up on Baator and it's 9 layers...each layer getting smaller. So are the layers just floating disks? I know they are connected by 1 gate each so I'm assuming that means there's a road connecting each layer? And does this mean that when you are on the 2nd layer do you see the bottom of the 1st layer above you?
I hope my questions are clear...cause I really don't know how to explain what I'm wanting to know.
Thanks.
It's not something that's ever been concretely defined and it takes a bit of vagueness on a DM's part, or glossing over it, etc. Don't over analyze it and you should be fine. ;)
AND THE BOARD ATE IT BECAUSE I USED TOO MANY BULLET POINT GRAPHICS!!
ARGH!!
LOL
*sorry couldnt resist.. happened to me too a few times*
What they have is portals. Natural portals are the result, perhaps, of pieces of the planes sliding forcibly into others. A town in Bytopia becomes too lawful: it's torn from the Great Sandwich, and ends up in Celestia. A hole is left where people can follow the town from one plane to another. Around the hole, radiations from the other plane contaminate the region somewhat, and things are a little more Celestian.
Eventually, the wound in the universe will heal and the portal will seal up.
Of course, this sort of thing defines the Outlands, which is unlike the other outer planes in that it has a definite center, and "weak" points are a permanent feature in the ninth or tenth circle radiating from the Spire, and the lancscape reflects the planes associated with these points to a significant degree. Beyond that circle, things become misty and undefined.
But still no edge. To cross from the Land to the Great Ring, you have to use a portal.
Another thing the Outer Planes have is paths. The Rivers Styx, Oceanus, Lethe, and Pyriphlegethon, the Mountain of Myths and the Really Big Tree, and others. You can use the paths to cross from one plane to another without a portal, and the order they flow in doesn't reflect the idea of a ring at all.
In fact, the only evidence that the outer planes have a ring shape is found in the most common order of natural portals - towns and sites slide from one plane to another as if they were arranged in a ring with the Outlands in the center. Except in Limbo, which has anomolous burgs and chunks of debris from all over the multiverse, Inner, Outer, and Other. Limbo breaks all the rules.
The Inner Planes, on the other hand, do have edges. Only the natives really know how to find them - newcomers can continue forever without coming to one. Elemental compasses can also help.
The 3e Manual of the Planes suggests the Outer Planes have edges and the Inner Planes don't, but they've got it backwards.
Originally posted by Cyriss
What I mean is that when the landscape of an outer plane is flat, is it an infinate distance or are there edges where it would basically be "the end of the earth"? Like when people thought the Earth was flat.
I used to think they were infinate landscapes until I read up on Baator and it's 9 layers...each layer getting smaller.
That's just artistic license. Each layer of Baator is infinite. Each lies below the previous one in the sense that if you walk through a portal in Dis you're going to end up falling from the cold, sleety sky into the treacherous swamps of Minauros, or climbing down slippery, rusty chains into the city of Jangling Hiter. The portal from Cania to Nessus is a pit, and you fall or climb down the pit into a deeper pit on the next layer. All trips to the deeper layers involve journeys downward, some more hazardous than others.
The reason they're drawn with each layer getting smaller is because the whole plane is, metaphorically, a pit. It's an inverted mountain, as Mount Celestia is a right-side up mountain.
Not every one of the layers is flat, however. Malbolge is slanted. Gravity is always 45 degrees from the surface.
HOWEVER, some planes aren't like this. The layers of Gehenna are each finite volcanoes floating in an infinite void. Each volcano is the size of a galaxy, but it's finite and you can come to the literal edge of it, and theoretically fly from one layer to the next.
Most prefer to use portals, however.
The layers of Mount Celestia are infinite. They're all mountainous, and traveling to the next one always involves climbing a mountain (or a ziggurat, if you're in Jovar). There aren't necessarily literal portals - the only way to reach the next layer is by learning some kind of moral lesson. Each mountain in Celestia is like a planar path.
In Arborea, each layer is infinite. Traveling between them involves a change of mood as much as anything else. This is a plane of Chaos, and it's unpredictable.
The Abyss is often drawn as if it's an infinite stack of layers, with the Plain of Infinite Portals on top and a bunch of layers below it in a particular order. This is how the Fraternity of Order likes to picture it, but it's not true. The Abyss is a tangled mess, its layers constantly shifting in relation to one another. The Plain of Infinite Portals always connects to the Astral - others might too, occasionally. You can think of the Plain of Infinite Portals as the center of the plane, with the other layers branching off from it in every conceivable direction. And other layers branch off from those layers, without limit.
Pandemonium is tangled, too. It's a bunch of tunnels, with no rhyme or reason. One tunnel might lead to the third layer, or the second, or the fourth.
Each layer of Carceri is "inside" the previous one, like a series of nesting dolls. But each layer is also an infinite series of orbs hanging in the void, and you can fly from one to the next. The deeper layers have smaller orbs, further apart from one another. The layers closer to the "surface" have bigger orbs, closer together. You get from one layer to the next by walking through tunnels leading underground, and you get back out the way you came.
Mechanus only has one layer, although some count each gear or cluster of gears as a different one.
In Arcadia, travel between the layers involves walking downhill, or going underground into the tunnels of the buseni. Buseni are shapeshifting, oozelike guardians of good. Arcadia has special paths for ease of travel, but these are carefully guarded by the petitioners and the Harmonium.
Limbo might have a million layers, or just one. It depends on the time of day, and the mood everyone is in. Maybe each traveler and each inhabitant is a layer. Remember, however, the Rule of Fives: everything comes in fives, or comes in a number that has something to do with five, or you can add or subtract or multiply or square root until you get another number that has a five in it.
It's possible that Muspelheim, the second layer of Ysgard, is just the other side of the floating earth rivers of Asgard, the first layer. And Nidvellir, the third layer, may be underground, the region in between the two. Or perhaps the layers are metaphysically very seperate. It's hard to tell in the Planes of Chaos. Maybe you should just climb the World Tree.
Each layer of the Gray Waste is pretty flat, although there are some mountains, and continues infinitely. However, all are connected to a central city, called the City in the Center. From City in the Center you can travel to any of the other layers. There are three in all.
Did I forget any? Yes, I did. Travel through the (infinite, flat) layers of Elysium involves sailing down the River Oceanus - this is a good way to cross layers in any upper plane, except Bytopia, Celestia, and Arcadia. It is also supposed to be a journey of personal exploration.
Travel through the (infinite, flat) layers of the Beastlands means traveling through the different parts of the day and night. It is as easy as that, and as hard.
There are portals to get between the cubes and layers of Acheron. I think that's all. I haven't been going through them in order. Sorry!
Oh, right! Bytopia! The only way to cross layers in Bytopia is to fly upwards until you reach the other layer, or climb a mountain that connects the two layers. Maybe there are paths and portals, too, but flying and climbing is the main way. Watch out for gravity shifts!
Anyway, I personally don't care for the "infinite in size" thing. I say that the size of a plane depends in some fashion on the number of petitioners it has. Of course, you can't actually reach an "edge" to the plane. You can still pick a direction and walk in it forever and never reach the end, but for reason's similar to why you can do the same thing on earth (ignoring obstacles like mountains, oceans, and warzones). Towards the edges the dimensions curve in a weird sort of way, so you can keep walking, but you're actually not going anywhere. A similar phenomena occurs on the outlands when you try to walk out beyond the gatetowns. To some extent, at the edges the fabric of the plane is "weaker" than closer in, meaning that belief has more effect, and this is why you can "walk" from one outer plane to another; the weakened dimensional edge of one plane matches up with the edge of another, so it's possible to kind of "push" through from one to the other. Of course, apparently I'm a guvner, So I think in theses kinds of terms. Ask a Bleaker the same question and they'll tell you it is the way it is and doesn't mean anything or make sense.
More OOC, I don't like the idea of all the planes being infinite because to me it makes everything in the planescape setting less important. Why would the archons care about Mount Celestia being invaded by tanar'ri? They could always just move themselves and all their petitioners infinitely far away and never be bothered by them. What's with all these talks in the books about "noteable" or "important" sites on the planes? If they're infinite, then Mount Olympus could be one of the least important places on Arborea. I just think that if the planes are technically limited in size, it makes all the inter-planar struggles and politicking, as well as the battle for souls, more interesting and gives more of a point to it all. I mean, take the real world. In the past few decades people have become more concerned about fighting to protect the environment. Why? Because we're running out. Sure, some people would object on purely moral grounds, but the real, physical impacts are what make it so important an issue. Now, if the world were infinite in size, then it wouldn't be that big a deal. Burn down and cut up as many rain forests as you want, there will always be more. Kill as many animals as you want, there will always be more. Spread as much pollution as you want, there will always be more places with clean air for us to move to.
As to the question of the thread, it is rather vague. You may cross into another plane without realizing it (via soft borders, etc), or you may walk in that direction forever. In my own cosmologies (other than the wheel) I rule that the maximum size of a plane is the heliopause of the Sun - about 40 to 80 AUs (astronomical units). That seems large enough for me. :D
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Hmm, seems many answered while I looked upon other posts. Oh well. Their answers are far better and more comprehensive than mine. Cheers, all!
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Freefall: You make a few good points Freefall. If a Plane is infinite, it doesn't matter what happens on the Planes, and there are no, or shouldn't be any landmarks of anykind. Saying something is infinite just may be intellectual lazyness, since the only way to prove something is infinite would be to travel infinitely, which is impossible. Theres a number, Google-Plex, which is a 1 and about one thousand zeros. I think that thats a fair estimate of the size in miles(or Kilometers), of most Planes.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Theres a number, Google-Plex, which is a 1 and about one thousand zeros.
A google is 1 followed by 100 zeros (10^100) and a google plex is 1 followed by a google zeros (10^(10^100)). Either is an assload, which is your point.
Besides, leaving it vague gives the DM a bit more creativity in the mystical and unexplainable qualities of the planes.
You want to make it so that to travel from one layer of Baator to the next you have to ride down in a dumbwaiter, then go for it. Maybe some of the Fiends had a wicked sense of humor when they set up the get up. Maybe you have to spin around in a circle 49 times, duck-walk 4 paces, then somersault in order to go from the great wheel into Pandemonium.. would suit the barmys just fine.
In any case, the vagueness gives the Setting infinite possibilities without letting the players **** a DMs game, because the DM ultimately has control on just how things are done. Unlimited potential for the game without unlimited ways for players to break it.
Where else can your characters walk down the street brushing elbows with Fiends, Celestials, Orcs, Goblins, and Trolls and not immediately feel as if they have to fight each menace? Who knows, maybe these particular fiends are in favor with the Lady, and attacking them will incite somebody's wrath.
But sometimes people may not realize that Planescape isn't as cook-book strict as some of these other settings. Dark Sun has strict rules for water consumption, Forgotten Realms has strict rules for Diety worship regarding resurrection, Dragonlance has the Kender (next to Tieflings, my favorite player race).. Planescape however, has no (or very few at least) cook-book rules for a reason. And some people unfamiliar with the setting need a reminder at times. It's your game, and Planescape is full of contradictions and inconsistencies for a reason. What works in some's idea of the planes may not work in your idea of the planes. Or what works once in your planes may not work a second time in your planes. The only hard set "rules" to planescape are the rules you apply to your game.
Oh, and as to the original question.. Do the outer planes have edges. . . Only if you need or want them to to further your game (or to mess with the player's heads of course)
Always have fun messing with your player's heads.Who knows, maybe these particular fiends are in favor with the Lady,
There's the last berk who claimed to be in favor of the Lady.
*points to a blood splatter on a wall*
Originally posted by nick012000
There's the last berk who claimed to be in favor of the Lady.
*points to a blood splatter on a wall*
Well, only a barmy berk would claim to be in favor with the Lady. But the Bloods know better