In describing the people that the PCs might encounter in Hommlet, we meet a female human (I think she's human, anyway) monk/ranger named Ingrith. The description says that it is rumored she has a paramour in town, but if she does, nobody knows who it is. As far as I can tell, that little thread is not developed any further (and of course, even if it were, it would be subject to DM's discretion, like all details of any adventure). I'm just wondering what other people have done with that rumor. Ignored it? Treated it as false? Or did you choose a paramour? (If so, who?) My first inclination was that it's Xaod the Slayer, but I think that's just because they're standing next to each other in the illustration. Now I think that Monte Cook was at least suggesting that it might be Jennithar, the priestess of the temple of Ehlonna.
One other comment: I've previously seen posts by people who said that they substituted a green dragon for the blue one that appears in the first part of the adventure, and I decided that makes more sense so I've adopted that change.
So, any comments?
We replaced Untreshimon with a Troll. A troll is better suited for the Moathouse than a Blue Dragon. It worked out well.
By the way, which version of RttToEE are you running? An excellent conversion document for 3.5 HERE. Check it out. And, the official Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil boords are the best place to get answers. Those guys know EVERYTHING about this adventure. But, let us know how it goes here too, Brom.
).I am currently running this adventure, and my players have just descended in the fortress, where they killed ghast and 3 ghouls and fred the mage Spugnois. Two of them played T1-4 15 years ago, and it's so good to come back in Hommlet.
I intensified the interest of Iuz in Hommlet, wich is quite slight on the original Scenario. And Ingrith, in my scenario, is in fact an Scarlet broterhood agent. I mated her with Telma, the spy of Iuz...
In fact she is manipulating her, she knows she is working for Iuz, and she is giving false information to her. On the other side, one my player has fallen in Telma's (arms/bed...=) , and he is quite happy to eat good the cakes and candies she made. But he is speaking too much (it's a Barbarian, a Schnaï after all....).
So Ingrith take information from Telma (who is in love with her), and give her false info to make her talk.
And the whole group is absolutely sure they can trust in them.
I like Evils to manipulate each other, it's very productive in term of roleplay and intrigue.
I know that a lot of people prefer dragons to be kind of rare in Greyhawk, so I can understand substituting a different creature entirely. I think it will probably freak my players out to run into a dragon of any kind, since they very nearly had a TPK when they recently ran into a black dragon (most of the party ended up unconscious but stable when the dragon finally went down), so for that reason alone, I think it might be fun to leave a dragon in there.
Makoma, that's an interesting idea about Ingrith. I suspect, though, that most of the time, that whole detail gets glossed over or ignored (like it did for Greyson).
Three PCs died in the initial onslaught and at least one other during the rout.
A troll (or two) sounds much better...
No problem regarding the link to Zans and RttToEE. Those places have been very helpful to me over the last couple of years.
There are two more chances for PCs to meet and fight dragons in RttToEE. There is a White and a nasty Green Dragon in the Crater Ridge Mines (CRMs). So, PCs won't miss a chance to bag one of the scaley buggers. I agree, as noted above, that springing a Blue Dragon on the PC so early in the game is a bit much.
Good luck, Bron. And, let us know how it goes.
The PCs later ran into a troll in a side adventure (they were about 6th at this point) which promptly wiped the floor with most of the party - dropping one PC in a single round! They had to be bailed out big time by an NPC.
So? the reason I wouldn't change the dragon - dragons are admitedly nasty, they get lots of attacks - but individually those attacks don't do that much damage (for a young dragon like this one). Trolls on the other hand have fewer attacks but do a lot more damage - and rend, and regenerate. Both can be party killers but at low levels, trolls are more likely to do so as they can concentrate on one PC at a time and shrug off most of the damage inflicted by the rest of the party. Against a dragon a party can split the attacks between them by surrounding it - and spread out the damage.
This tactic can also reduce the effectiveness of a dragons breath weapon if it is a line - the reason I wouldn't change this to a green dragon (cone breath weapon) - as that means it is harder for the dragon to target multiple PCs with its nastiest attack.
If you want to change the dragon type (which does make sense) change it to a black. The Moathouse is built in a swamp (I seem to remember RttToEE saying that the clerics originally had to drain it to build the moathouse) and even if not, still has a moat to swim in. Also, blacks are weaker physically then both greens and blues and still have a line breath weapon so, if your PCs are clever, can only target one PC at a time.
Just my 2-cents
The party got itself spread out before the dragon could use its breath weapon, and then the only ones hit were the high-HP fighters. The sorcerer PC had just leveled up and taken lightning bolt, and he used that on the dragon to good effect. The whole thing was over pretty quickly, with minimal damage to the party.
Looking back, I realized that my party is actually a bit higher than the starting level of the adventure - then, on top of that, I allowed a larger party (more party NPCs than usual). On top of that, I think I took the adventure text a bit too literally when it says that Utreshimon initially engages in straightforward attacks. What made the party's previous encounter with a black dragon (in the "Forge of Fury") really nasty was the dragon's sneak-attack tactics (pop up from lake, breath weapon, dive). After the near TPK in "Forge of Fury," I was convinced the party would need every edge it could get, and I ended up giving it too much.
I have got another question, though. (Spoiler warning, although by now, I assume that anyone who shouldn't be reading has already stopped - or won't heed this warning anyway.) In the moathouse dungeon (area 34, I think), there's a black altar which, if struck, turns translucent with an amorphous black center. My party wanted to destroy it, so they tried to break it. After the first failed Fortitude save (resulting in four hours of paralysis), they started throwing holy water, acid flasks, and big rocks at it. I'm not sure that they should have been able to destroy it, but I decided that it should have around 500 hp and I started deducting. (They also wanted to bless it, until they realized that the bless spell didn't function that way.) Fortunately for me, they gave up before they got very far. Has anyone else had to deal with this?
An airborne dragon wouldn't have much to worry about from a low-level party.
Originally posted by Robbastard
I replaced the dragon with a hydra.
An airborne dragon wouldn't have much to worry about from a low-level party.
Except it specifically says that he doesn't want to leave his new lair - when I played this (as opposed to GMing it) we managed to drive him off but that was about it - he later came back and stomped us!
So, I think Table 9-11: Object Hardness and Hit Points in the v.3.5 PHB is a good place to get statistics for the altar. Brom is pretty close on hit poits, 500 is a good estimate. According to the table, as a Hewn Stone object, the altar might have Hardness 8, Hit Points 540 and a Break DC of 50.
But then it is obviously magical, so some other affects must be considered. I am at work sans DMG. But we can probably figure something out later.
Originally posted by Greyson
Regarding Brom's stone Altar question - the adventure's language does not make any indication about destroying the altar or rendering it useless.
So, I think Table 9-11: Object Hardness and Hit Points in the v.3.5 PHB is a good place to get statistics for the altar. Brom is pretty close on hit poits, 500 is a good estimate. According to the table, as a Hewn Stone object, the altar might have Hardness 8, Hit Points 540 and a Break DC of 50.
But then it is obviously magical, so some other affects must be considered. I am at work sans DMG. But we can probably figure something out later.
Well, with any luck, my players will be content with reporting the altar's existence to Rufus and Burne and then they'll just go on to the old Temple. However, if they don't, I'm not sure what should happen if they actually manage to destroy the thing - or whether they even can.
Table 9-11 is where I got the hit points (I actually used whatever was on the table, I just don't remember right now exactly what it said, although 540 sounds right). But since it is magical, is it somehow protected from destruction? If not, what should happen if it is destroyed? At this point, I guess I'd be leaning toward a big magical explosion. In fairness, when they start getting close, I think they should start to feel cold and very uneasy - touched by Tharizdun's madness. Maybe instead of dealing physical damage (or in addition to it?) the explosion would drive the characters insane (on a failed Will save, of course). Maybe the (first) Will save comes sooner, when the cold and uneasiness hit.
What typically happens when a magical item is destroyed? I guess that would be a starting point.
What typically happens when a magical item is destroyed? I guess that would be a starting point.
it stops working.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
it stops working.
:D
Yes, well, of course there's that. . .
What I meant was, does the item just go quietly, or is there a flash of light, a big boom, a ripple in the fabric of the multiverse . . . ?
Maybe there is no typical response (except that it stops working). It would probably depend on the nature of the enchantment. If a rust monster gets my +1 sword (and I miss the saving throw), I doubt that anything happens except that the sword disintegrates. If, however, a major artifact were destroyed, there might be more to it than that.
Regarding the Altars in the Moathouse Dungeon 34A (pg. 28-29) and the Fire Temple 121 (pg.75-77), here are some more thoughts. The two objects are of the same design and function.
Here is some clarification on the altars' Hardnesses, as I interpret them - whichis certainly open to debate.
The Moathouse Altar is made of "...porous, slightly corroded black rock..." It sounds like it is hewn stone, as we have agreed. So, I am thinking that the Moathouse Altar is Hardness 8, Hit Points 540 and Break DC 50. And Magical attacks - this Altar has +5 to Saves (+2 base, +3 for caster level [assuming the caster level was 6, half of the caster level of the Fire Temple's Altar]). And the effects of destryoing this altar? Use your imagination. How about a blast glyph (glyph of warding, 6th level caster) that is activated upon destruction and does 3d8 points of cold damage.
The Fire Temple's Altar "...is an altar of obsidian..." So, it sounds like volcanic material more like hard glass than stone. The Altar, being obsidian and more like glassy rock than traditional stone might have Hardness 4, Hit Points 240 and Break DC 25. This Altar has +7 to Saves (+2 base, +5 for half caster level [11th]). The effects of its destruction are noted in the text.
Now the statistics noted here and in the adventure regarding the Fire Temple Altar, namely the Hardness 10, Hit Pints 60 and Break DC 28, are for the platform, according to the text on page 77. It reads, "Destroying the Altar: If the platform is destroyed (Hardness 10, Hit Pints 60 Break DC 28 )..." That is why I have contrived different stats for the Altar.
I like the idea of the Fire Temple Altar being a minor artifact. So destroying it is not a matter of pummeling it with the favored bag of maces. It is "...an altar of ancient power dedicated to the Elder Elemental Eye." Perhaps the Book of the Dark Eye can shed some light on the destruction of Fire Temple's Altar.
Niether Altar is listed in RttToEE's New Magic Items appendix. But, they are obviously magical. So here we are figuring this a out on our own - which is okay, and fun.
Thoughts? Villifying rants? Etc...
For regular magic items, it's different. Like wes said, most of them just stop working. But any effect would really depend on the power of the item in question. Insanity seems to me to be a logical result of destroying an alter of Tharizdun, but as the DM, you've got the ultimate call. :D
"Ask not Greyhawkers for counsel, for they will say both no and yes!"
-wn
Greyson - ack! too fast for me.
EDIT: Grammar. Ick!
I treat minor artifacts the same way i treat other magic items... becasue face it Minor artifacts are just those normal magic items from previous editions of the game that the designers felt were too powerful in 3e to let the Player Character just go around making them willy-nilly
greater (or major or true) artifacts are somethig else entirly, each has a specific (and ussualy only) means of destruction, and the results of its destruction can be powerful and unpredictable... I would suggest checking out the 2e book of artifacts for ideas.
as for the alter in question (in the moat house) I would let it be destroyed simply by battering it... but becasue it is an alter dedicated to a dark god I might well decide that the character resposible for its destruction suffers from the effects of curse spell until a remove curse cast by a high level cleric is cast upon him (I would also let an atonement spell cast by a cleric of Tharzy work, but who the heck is going to think of trying that).
I treat minor artifacts the same way i treat other magic items... becasue face it Minor artifacts are just those normal magic items from previous editions of the game that the designers felt were too powerful in 3e to let the Player Character just go around making them willy-nilly
greater (or major or true) artifacts are somethig else entirly, each has a specific (and ussualy only) means of destruction, and the results of its destruction can be powerful and unpredictable... I would suggest checking out the 2e book of artifacts for ideas.
as for the alter in question (in the moat house) I would let it be destroyed simply by battering it... but becasue it is an alter dedicated to a dark god I might well decide that the character resposible for its destruction suffers from the effects of curse spell until a remove curse cast by a high level cleric is cast upon him (I would also let an atonement spell cast by a cleric of Tharzy work, but who the heck is going to think of trying that).
Thanks, also, to Wes and WightNight for their thoughts on the matter. Anyone else, please feel free to chime in, especially if you've had this come up in your campaigns.
As you can see in the original Module, this campaign is very lighly related to Greyhawk, obviously even if the title may sell well, this module wasn't GREYHAWK specified on the cover, and the allusions to WoG and any officials are very very few...
But this is not my intention, As in the past with the 1st version, i want my players to live in hommlet and make them discovering the WoG through this scenario.
So, as a DM, what have you changed, added, to give Rtttoe more of GREYHAWK flavor ( what kind of spices?)
Thank you.
...............................Omote
Originally posted by makoma
Speaking about rtttoe, i would also like to know if you involved Iuz or other forces in your campaign.
Well, my players aren't very far yet, but I did note that one of the townsfolk is a spy for Iuz, so I've been thinking about how that might come into play. At this point, I'm thinking that the party will probably just show up on Iuz's radar as a potential threat, thanks to the spy. No particular consequence, except that it's never good to come to the Old One's attention. If I come up with anything else, I'll let you know.