What are they? Are they human races?
I would like some info on them to better understand all the greyhawk gods I use in my non-Greyhawk campaign.
The next thing you know, I'd be racial profiling which can be left open for way too much interpretation.
I'm all for out-of-setting education, so hopefully some one can come up with a creative way to answer this question without any inadvertant offense taking place. This question seems to arise semi-frequently.
Many World of Greyhawk products describe each human race, in varying detail. A great contemporary product is the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (© 2000 by Wizards of the Coast). Earlier products are the unbiquitous World of Greyhawk Fantasy Campaign Setting boxed set (© 1983 by TSR) and Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins (© 1998, TSR).
If you have specific questions, post them. There are a lot of smart Greyhawkers here willing to answer.
All the human races in Greyhawk have the same stats and there are no racial adjustments to abilities, skills, or anything else.
The human races in Greyhawk are distinguished for world-flavor reasons to distinguish language and culture differences rather than for any game mechanic reasons.
If you want to learn about them you can read the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer or simply do a Google search on the different names of the Greyhawk human races you want to learn about.
My review of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer includes a brief overview of the human races of Greyhawk and where they fit into its history. It's here:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10074.phtml
Baklunish: Think middle eastern/Arabic on Earth. I believe they are characterized by olive skin.
Flan: Pure Flannish people were the original inhabitants of the Flannaess. One of the last places you will find them in "pure form are the Rovers of the Barrens and I want to say the Duchy of Tenh. Rovers are described as horse riding nomads and their culture sounds vaguely Native American. I'm not sure about appearance.
Oeridian: Not 100% sure but I'm thinking Caucasian.
Suloise: This is an odd bunch. They're originally from the area now known as the Sea of Dust. They've wandered far. In the Barbarian North they are found in their purest form and have pale ruddy complexions with blond (nearly white or platinum) and red hair typically. They can also be found in the Jungles far to the South. I think it's been said they are pure Suel as well. The climate has forced them to evolve (as the north would too I suppose) and they are now dark skinned, and that's as much as I've ever heard about that.
Touv: This sounds familiar but I can't think of what they were. Did they live in and aroung what is now Greyhawk city? They're responsible for the cairns in the Cairn hills? They've died out?
Olman: As with Touv I think they died out or they only survivie on the Olman Islands. I think it was an Aztec like culture with pyramids and such.
Rhenee: You missed these. They live on the Nyr Dyv and surrounding lands and rivers. They are not native to Greyhawk because they migrated here from another plane. They are basically Gypsies, or as I've heard them call themselves, Rom.
Hope that helps,
Valkaun (Suel)
The Baklunish are golden skinned, as opposed to the yellowish cast of real world Asians. Because of the titles used for their rulers they are generally considered to be Arabic or Mongolian/Turkic in culture. Their deities somewhat support this, with Fate (Istus) being their dominant power, and having a specific deity for fresh water springs and pools.
The Flan are bronze skinned, from light copper to deep bronze. This is the general range of skin tones of the inhabitants of the East Coast (Horn) of Africa. Because of the titles used for the Rovers of the Barrens they are generally considered to have had a culture similar to that of the Native Americans. Their deities definitely do not match this, being closer to a classic Earth Mother pantheon with some additions.
The Suloise are very fair skinned, generally equivalent to real world Scandinavians. Their culture is extremely divergent though, with numerous offshoots, including the closely viking-themed Thillronian Barbarians, the tanned and freckled rain forest inhabitants of the Amedio and Hepmonaland, the very racist Scarlet Brotherhood, and the cultures of Urnst and Keoland. Their pantheon is very eclectic, featuring elemental themed deities, as well as a number of abstract concept themed deities.
The Oeridians are olive-skinned, making them the equivalent of real world Mediterraneans (Greeks, Italians, and Spaniards) and Middle Easterners (Jews and Arabs). Their pantheon has many militaristic elements, as well as many supporting a Lawful dominance over Chaos. They are sometimes equated with a Roman or Germanic culture.
The Touv are definitely intend to be an African race, both in skin color and pantheon, as well as geographic placement.
The Olman are supposed to be Mesoamerican Natives, again in skin tone and pantheon, which is directly copied from the real world Aztec pantheon. It should be noted though that their portrayal is less than pleasant, and not well received by some Greyhawk fans of Mesoamerican descent.
The Rhennee are likewise supposed to be Gypsies, transplanted to Oerth.
Having said that if your campaigning enviroment it not concerned with sush things, then the races are just colurful background for your character development. now If you have a group that includes a cleric of Al'Akbar and his name is bob the cleric, then its not going to matter now is it.
hope my ramplings made sense
Originally posted by Valkaun_Dain
You had to be transcribing that out of the Gazeteer.
Sam is called wise for many reasons, this among them. In fact, come see for yourself at Greychat tomorrow night. He usually shows up, Late. Don't ask about martial arts. Please.
Originally posted by Max_Writer
The Flan are described, pictured, and used as a Native American culture in "Ghost Dance" in Dungeon Adventures #32, Nov./Dec. 1991.
That adventure was written by David Howery, and he later went on to say that he wishes he hadn't made them so close to plains indians, because from the setting, they were not much like them at all, it's just that he happened to be into Native American studies at the time and it influenced his views.
The WoG minis from Minifigs have the rovers as being mustachioed and bald save for a topknot, looking more celtic than American Indian.
Though not saying Flan don't have American Indian influences in the creation of their culture, being that the WoG developed out of a fantasy version of the area around Lake Superior in the US, and the Flan took on a role of various indian tribes in the area.
Flan are pretty much a hodge podge when it comes to associating a real world culture to them, for in Stonehold they take on the role of Slavic people to the to the Stoneholds ruling Suel taking on the role of the Rus of Russia.
Halber
being that the WoG developed out of a fantasy version of the area around Lake Superior in the US
I'm very near where the WoG was created and I believe it would be Lake Michigan in it's derivative rather than Superior. fyi
Actually those were only Rovers of the Barrens, though I'll grant you they are supposed to come from the Flan ethnic group.
Ah, I always read too much into that then. Most of my flan are the Native American type. I'll have to remedy that.
The WoG minis from Minifigs have the rovers as being mustachioed and bald save for a topknot, looking more celtic than American Indian.
Off topic, does anyone know when these were put out and if they can now be found anywhere? I'm a bit of a Greyhawk fanatic and would love to have some of these.
Originally posted by abysslin
I'm very near where the WoG was created and I believe it would be Lake Michigan in it's derivative rather than Superior. fyi
Ah, you are right...does the fact that I went through the american school system show?
Halber
Originally posted by Max_Writer
Off topic, does anyone know when these were put out and if they can now be found anywhere? I'm a bit of a Greyhawk fanatic and would love to have some of these.
Here are some, though what he has may not be up to date:
http://www.dragontrove.com/grey.html
Same goes for here:
http://www.digitaldragon.org/
Here are pictures of the various minis in the line:
http://www.digitaldragon.org/hoard2/1mf_gryhwk/mfgh_001.html
http://www.digitaldragon.org/hoard2/1mf_gryhwk/mfgh_002.html
http://www.digitaldragon.org/hoard2/1mf_gryhwk/mfgh_003.html
http://www.digitaldragon.org/hoard2/1mf_gryhwk/mfgh_004.html
and a picture of the Rovers in question:
http://www.digitaldragon.org/hoard2/1mf_gryhwk/gh072b.jpg
Halber
Originally posted by Halberkill
Flan are pretty much a hodge podge when it comes to associating a real world culture to them, for in Stonehold they take on the role of Slavic people to the to the Stoneholds ruling Suel taking on the role of the Rus of Russia.
Halber
Vlek Col Vlekzed (sp), who founded Stonehold, was a Rover, therefore a Flan. Now, had you said the Coltens (original Flan inhabitants of Stonehold) were the Slavs to Vlek's Rus, then I'd agree with you.
I seem to remember Gygax saying somewhere (perhaps Greytalk?) that the Rovers were inspired by American Indians & Cossaks (the figure looks very much like a Cossak).
IMC, the Rover culture is very similar to Plains Indians, though there is a bit of Slavic flavor in there as well--they see Iggwilv as a Baba Yaga-type figure, & Iuz is viewed somewhat as Koschei the Deathless.
Bakluni : +1 Wis / -1 Cha (vs non Bakluni only)
Flan : +1 Con / -1 Int (only in regard to learning new spells if you're a wizard)
Oeridian : +1 Dex / -1 Wis
Suel : +1 Int / -1 Cha
In an online article over the Jungles of the South, they added:
Olman: +1 Dex, -1 Int
Touv: +1 Wis, -1 Str
Could those bonuses be applied to 3.5 characters without unbalencing etc??
They would also have to be absolute and not just conditional modifiers. (The Int penalty for Flan would apply to all uses of Int, not just learning spells.)
Half of them are balanced according to the rules in the DMG on page 173. (The Oeridians, Olman, and Touv are not balanced.)
It's more of an ethnic flavor as it is.
D20/3.5 is set up for racial stat modifiers to be +/-2 so that the modifier actually changes the bonus or penalty you get from the stat. Leaving it at +/-1 makes the modifier either irrelevant for a penalty or overly powerful for a bonus, particularly when combined with point cost stat buy, another default assumption of the system.
Baklunish: I don't think that they are best described as arabian but more as persian or central asian. For instance the Tiger and Wolf Nomads, which are baklunish, are clearly not arabian in origin but strongly reminiscent of the horse cultures of the central asian steppes. Even the more civilized baklunish countries sound more like Samarkand than Baghdad.
Flan: I do not think that that in GH there is still an original flan culture alive. Sure, there are countries that are still predominately inhabited by people of flannish origin but that does not mean that they life in a way their ancestors did before the great migrations a thousand years ago.
The flan were nealy eradicated by the wandering suel and oeridians and they were forced to adapt to a world full of hostile invaders. For instance countries like Geoff or Tenh may have predominately flannish inhabitants but they were for a long time under the reign of Keoland or the Great Kingom of Aerdi so probably they have a aquired a great deal of their culture.
Many assume that the original flan culture was a good deal like the native (north) american one but i do not think so. Given all the little tidbits we are given in all the different sources about ancient sites, realms and faiths in the flanaess, which must be of flan origin since other humans did not enter the flanaess before the great migrations, i would rather say that the flan resemble early prehistoric european cultures.
Suel: I do not think that THE suel culture does exist at all. The suel empire lasted for more than 5000 years and it surely was many different things at different times and after the great migrations i split split into many diverse cultures as different as that of the Scarlet Brotherhood and that of the barbarians of the Thillonrian Peninsula.
Even if the Scarlet Brotherhood claims to be the "caretakers" of all things suel they obviously delude themselves since the suel empire was ruled by emperors and nobles not some oversized bureaucracy led by warrior monks.
I also would guess that the more prominent suel lands of the flanaess like keoland or the urnst states are culturally strongly influenced by the oeridians since they are all feudal states reminiscend of the european middle ages and hence oeridian culture.
i would rather say that the flan resemble early prehistoric european cultures.
- Vanamir
I would agree with that statement considering early pre-historic Europe and pre-Columbian North America were essentially stone age cultures. Metal working was limited to copper, gold and silver in North and South America. It was true in Europe until, obviously, the Bronze Age. Both had erected massive astronomical devices (Stonehenge, Cahokia Mounds' Woodhenge) and temples.
I do not think that that in GH there is still an original flan culture alive.
- Vanamir
Aren't the Rovers (what's left of them) "original" Flan?
Originally posted by Valkaun_Dain
- Vanamir
I would agree with that statement considering early pre-historic Europe and pre-Columbian North America were essentially stone age cultures. Metal working was limited to copper, gold and silver in North and South America. It was true in Europe until, obviously, the Bronze Age. Both had erected massive astronomical devices (Stonehenge, Cahokia Mounds' Woodhenge) and temples.
- Vanamir
Aren't the Rovers (what's left of them) "original" Flan?
I don't think that the Rovers are a good example of "original" Flan. The Rovers seem to be mostly nomadic tribes which does not fit well with image of builders of extensive cairns and stone monuments.
Still i think ancient europe is more fitting than the pre-columbian north america. Of course i may be biased in this matter since i am an european myself :D
I don't think that the Rovers are a good example of "original" Flan. The Rovers seem to be mostly nomadic tribes which does not fit well with image of builders of extensive cairns and stone monuments.
Still i think ancient europe is more fitting than the pre-columbian north america. Of course i may be biased in this matter since i am an european myself :D
-- Vanamir
I agree that ancient Europe is more fitting simply because it seems to fit in better with the rest of the Flanaess which has always struck me as being a mirror of Europe. But all humans (no matter what color their skin and hair or eye shape happened to be) have been builders of great monuments and cairns and they've been nomads as well, just, perhaps, not at the same time.
I apologize in advance for the lecture I'm about to give. If nothing else just look at this as campaign building information.I'm not sure what culture is responsible for erecting Stonehenge but at some point their ancestors were nomads, I'm sure.
The same goes for pre-Columbian North America. Take the Cahokia Mounds near present day St. Louis, Missouri, USA. I'm familiar with it because it's basically in my back yard (albeit 30 miles away). They built great mounds of earthen (not stone) "pyramids", the biggest of which is the largest such structure on Earth, Monks Mound. They also built astronomical devices, similar to Stonehenge only made of great cedar tree trunks. At its peak this was one of the largest cities on Earth, even bigger than London (at the same moment in time, of course). They flourished for a few hundred years and then died out not long before Columbus arrived, and no one knows for sure why they disappeared. A few hundred years later none of the tribes (mostly Cahokia Indians that lived near the Mounds when white explorers came) could say for sure who built the mounds and there weren't any other visible signs of a city because it had all disappeared over time. Local Indians said they were a race of giants. The mounds were named after the tribe that lived nearby when white men came but they had nothing to do with their construction. Were the builders and subsequent inhabitants of the same "race"? Of course. Were they related tribes? Perhaps, and what remnant of their culture remained was certainly absorbed into neighboring tribes, some of which farmed like they did, and some who were nomadic, following the bison and other game. Until the mid1700's the Teton Sioux were farmers in Minnesota. They were forced out onto the Great Plains by their enemies and became nomadic horsemen.
Of course I may be biased in this matter since I am of European and Native American descent myself
Hmmm, Vanamir? Can I assume you're of the Norwegian persuasian? A descendant of Vikings perhaps? I am a great admirer of the Vikings (hence my favorite character, Valkaun Dain, a native of Cruskii). Seafaring nomads they were and the monument they left behind is early democracy, the Althing. Not even Viking determination could keep a foothold in North America, though. The Skraelings drove the fair skinned off, at least for a short while. Sorry, I'm a history nerd.
Originally posted by Valkaun_Dain
-- Vanamir
Hmmm, Vanamir? Can I assume you're of the Norwegian persuasian? A descendant of Vikings perhaps? I am a great admirer of the Vikings (hence my favorite character, Valkaun Dain, a native of Cruskii). Seafaring nomads they were and the monument they left behind is early democracy, the Althing. Not even Viking determination could keep a foothold in North America, though. The Skraelings drove the fair skinned off, at least for a short while. Sorry, I'm a history nerd.
No, i am german. But i think some of my ancestors came from sweden during the 30 years war. At least my family name is definately scandinavian ;)
And don't be sorry for being a history nerd. It is also a hobby of mine