I am not very knowledgeable about the world of Mystara but in my ever-burning desire to learn more I would like to know what, in your opinion, sets Mystara above other gaming worlds? As all official D&D worlds I know have at least a few unique features I am sure it must be the same for Mystara.
Regards,
MAB
A brief breakdown:
Thyatis ... Byzantium
Darokin ... difficult to say but could be early American or perhaps English
Karameikos ... Eastern European/Balkans (particularly under Byzantine period of influence, early medieval era)
Ethengar ... Mongols
Ylaruam ... Islamic empire
Northern Reaches .... Norse/Viking
Alphatia ... arguably, Imperial Britain
Glantri ... itself, hard to say, perhaps Switzerland, a mountain kingdom comprised of cultures with very obvious French, Dutch or German, Spanish, Balkan, Italian, and Polish origins
Minrothad and Ierendi might be purely fantasy, as I cannot off hand think of any specific real-world counterpart, though its difficult to say ... Minrothad might be Belgium or Netherlands during the age of sail.
Another thing somewhat unique to Mystara (at least in Old D&D) was the concept of achieving immortality - powerful heroes can go on a path to ascend and become members of the immortal pantheons.
There are a few reasons I recently returned to Mystara gaming:
1. Nostalgia
2. 25 years of published material supporting the setting - including a handful of campaign arcs, and a number of campaigns focusing on high level play, dominion rulership, large scale wars, etc.
3. Glantri and Karameikos (the old Gazetteer versions) are extremely well done and fantastic places to launch a campaign.
Most of the nations of the Known World have been statted with armies and military units, and the Old D&D Rules Cyclopedia (and companion/masters rules) has a system for playing military campaigns and sieges, along with managing ever-growing dominions.
A number of campaign arcs involve huge-scale conflicts and dominion management, and high-level PC's can literally build empires. Some of the adventures I can think of that involve these large-scale conflicts are-
X10 Red Arrow/Black Shield
Wrath of the Immortals
Test of the Warlords
The M-series of Master Level modules
So its really a fusion of where Old D&D went with its rule-base, and Mystara was the setting where many of the pre-made scenarios took advantage of those epic rules.
I was reading about the plans Hackmaster had for "Mystarios" (a project apparently up in the air now) ... they were going to redo Ierendi altogether and make it semi-British with lots of privateers and a large navy, a sort of 'pirate nation' based loosely on the Elizabethan era, now that was interesting (and more in keeping with the spirit of Mystara than the original Ierendi Gaz imho)
Minrothad still has me stumped, though, but I wouldn't change a bit of it
Regarding Ierendi - the Makai always striked me as somewhat close to Mauri cultures or something like that.
But all this reminds me of something that always bothers me regarding Mystara:
All these cultures so close to one another seemed to me somewhat unrealistic - even climate-wise (Ylaruam so close to Soderfjord). Ethengar is a real problem: how can it be a threatening empire if it located on a rather small area, sorrounded by "European" cultures?
I mean, it would all make sense if the Known World occupied a larger area - but in relation to Brun, it is quite crowded.
As for Ierendi, the cyclopedia doesn't make any parallels. And I can't say I particularily liked the way the Gaz presented it.
Now, the reason for posting is the comments about the close proximity of all the various cultures of the Known World and their climates. I do admit that it has bothered me in the past as well but I've tried to "explain" it to myself a couple of ways.
The easiest way is to say "this world is full of magics that create "unnatural climatic tendencies" to occur". I think I've read somewhere about the lava under the crust having magical properties. Perhaps this effects the surface.
Then there's the Immortals. Maybe in their manipulations they have drawn cultures close for various purposes.
Then again (and I'm going out on a limb) perhaps the nucleus of the spheres has tugged at intelligent life over the past few thousand years to this corner of Brun; in the manner it attracted magic-users to Glantri.
There's probably more that I can't think of, and better ones by some of you out there. I guess in the end though I just said to myself, this isn't Earth and things don't always behave the same.
In some of my campaigns, most of these nations were conquered eventually by Hule, Thyatis or Karameikos. That's how I dealt with it.
I do think the Immortals have had a major impact on the over crowding of the Known World and possibly the artifacts left behind after Blackmoor was destroyed.
Originally posted by tjedge1
As far as the odd climates, Ylaruam is the most unusual of those and if it had been a colder region would have made sense, but in the Gazatteer I believe that when Nithia was destroyed that there were gates to the plane of fire that were left open and that causes the odd heat for a place so close to the Northern Reaches.
Another canon alteration of the climate is in regards to Alfheim. An Immortal of Alfheim altered the climate patterns so as to draw the moisture out of the air as it passed over. The extra moisture was used to help grow the trees of Alfheim to absurd sizes. This moisture once passed straight over the territory and into the valley of the Nithians. Without this moisture, the valley became as dry as a... well... you know. Mix in the heat from the still-open gates to the plane of fire...
Originally posted by tjedge1
I do think the Immortals have had a major impact on the over crowding of the Known World and possibly the artifacts left behind after Blackmoor was destroyed.
Especially with the dwarves (Kagyar), the elves of Alfheim, and the Atruagin clans... there has absolutely been a high level of Immortal involvement.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Any theories about hose folks? I always thought they must have some Tanagoro traits in the very distant past. From their history they have been in that region since before Blackmoor was destroyed. Maybe the Tanagoro's were originally from this nation instead of the other way around?
The planet was destroyed somehow, but not before a few people fled the disaster and landed on Mystaria.
That could be the true origin of the people of Ulimwengu.
Originally posted by Hugin
[b]The whole time while reading the discussion on Darokin my mind kept saying Venice Italy (and I've always used old Italian names for Darokinians) but I couldn't remember why. So I looked it up and sure enough the cyclopedia says "the culture resembles that of Venice or Genoa in medieval Italy". Although I have to agree with everyone so far that renaissance is a more accurate description.
Ahhhh .... that actually makes tons of sense, it explains the Renaissance flavour, the idea that the nation is just a step or two away from true industry (they seem to have textile mills and other proto-industrial features in some of the towns), the focus on trade, everything, it all makes alot of sense with that idea.
As for Ierendi, the cyclopedia doesn't make any parallels. And I can't say I particularily liked the way the Gaz presented it.
Ierendi .... grrrrr ... yuck
Now, the reason for posting is the comments about the close proximity of all the various cultures of the Known World and their climates. I do admit that it has bothered me in the past as well but I've tried to "explain" it to myself a couple of ways.
I don't feel a need to. The earlier poster mentioned that the Ethengar don't make sense because they are surrounded by more civilized countries, how can they be threatening. Well look at the Mongols in real history. They were sitting on the doorstep of Imperial China, the world's most advanced civilization at the time, separated by just a man-made wall.
Originally posted by Hugin
Then again (and I'm going out on a limb) perhaps the nucleus of the spheres has tugged at intelligent life over the past few thousand years to this corner of Brun; in the manner it attracted magic-users to Glantri.
hmmm... I like that. Somehow this makes more sense than just saying "magic" or "the Immortals". Thanx.
Originally posted by Edgewaters
The earlier poster mentioned that the Ethengar don't make sense because they are surrounded by more civilized countries, how can they be threatening. Well look at the Mongols in real history. They were sitting on the doorstep of Imperial China, the world's most advanced civilization at the time, separated by just a man-made wall.
That wasn't exactly what I meant. I had a problem with Ethengar being sorrounded by *European* cultures - not civilized ones.
Mongolia and China share some cultural affinity, in the broad sense of the word - much more than Ethengar and Heldann, Vestland or Glantri. It kind of makes Ethengar one great, grassy ghetto - which is fine, but makes them a minority and undermines their "threatening" potential.
But maybe I'm wrong.
Originally posted by Lost Woodrake
Oh. I forgot:
That wasn't exactly what I meant. I had a problem with Ethengar being sorrounded by *European* cultures - not civilized ones.
Mongolia and China share some cultural affinity, in the broad sense of the word - much more than Ethengar and Heldann, Vestland or Glantri. It kind of makes Ethengar one great, grassy ghetto - which is fine, but makes them a minority and undermines their "threatening" potential.
But maybe I'm wrong.
Well in terms of population they aren't a minority, any more than any of their neighbours. But in any case, the Mongols were when they attacked China ... China's population was much higher. Sure, they shared cultural affinity, but this should have helped the Chinese, and it didn't.
Alone, the Ethengars are a military threat to any one of the regions you named, plus, they face no great military threat themselves ... they are more suited to warfare on the open steppes than any of their neighbours. The huge cavalry armies they can assemble would quickly eliminate any footsloggers who ventured out into the plains, after cutting their supply lines. If all their neighbours allied and coordinated an attack, they might be able to defeat Ethengar, but this is highly unlikely, and who wants the territory anyway. No one but Glantri feels terribly threatened by them.
Culturally, it does seem odd to have them isolated like they are, but, there are parts of the real world where you get similar "patchworks" of culture, look at southern parts of Russia ... Asia meets Europe meets the Middle East.
Also don't forget that Ethengar is divided from everyone else, on all sides, by high mountain ranges, or the Broken Lands. Geographically they are quite well-separated. There is no "easy path" onto the steppes, except perhaps by passing through Rockhome, and the Ethengar are unlikely to have much cultural contact with the Dwarves.
Contrast this with Atruaghin. There are no mountains or Broken Lands between Darokin and Atruaghin, and yet, just a weeks ride from Darokin City itself, there are jungle pyramids where Maya-like priests perform human sacrifice on a regular basis. This strikes me as bizarre.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Tjedge1, I once read in Glantri: Kingdom of Magic, that there are some peoples living on Mystaria(The Alphatians and a few of the ancient Glantrians) that were orginally from a highly magical world that lied in between the 4th and 5th planets in Mystaria's solar system(Parallel: Between Mars and Jupiter)
*cringe*
Sorry, I keep learning the differences between OD&D and AD&D Mystara. According to information in the Dawn of the Emperors box, and tidbits scattered all over other OD&D sources, like the Rules Cyclopedia... In OD&D the Alphatians and Flaems of Glantri came from entirely different dimension, simply called Alphatia. A single empire ruled here, and magic was terribly important, before they destroyed it. Its destruction went something like this...
There were two societies of magic who perpetually argued, one for Air, and the other of Fire. The dispute was threatening to erupt out of the scholarly forum into full fledged debate that might thrust the empire into civil war. The Emperor Alphacks schemed to get the two societies to present their arguments to him publicly and he would make the decision to which discipline was the more powerful. Alphacks (already a Fire supporter) ruled in favor of Fire. The Air mages rebelled anyway and the civil war between the Fire and Air mages resulted anyway. In the end, the Air mages won unleashing a wind storm so severe the planet was left uninhabitable. Not before some Fire mages escaped to another dimension, where they wandered for a long time.
The Air mages left the former dimension and migrated to Mystara, settling on a continent which they named after their home. Many many years later a family of Fire magic devotees, the Flaems, wandering the planes came upon Mystara, recognizing that their ancient foes were here, found a place far from the decendents of the Air magic devotees to settle for themselves. This was the mountain valleys of Glantri.
It wasn't really just a few people that fled. The Air magic devotees packed up and left before they unleashed their "final solution" upon their foes.
The Air mages made landfall exactly 1000 years before the crowning of the Thyatian Emperor. The Ulimwegu have been around since before Blackmoor was backwater outpost.
The mythical planet between the 4th and 5th I seem to recall was named Damocles. It's now, of course, an asteroid belt. But if the AD&D Glantri box changed it so that the Flaems and Alphatians didn't come from another plane/dimension, ah well. Just one of the many changes to Mystara's cosmology the AD&D folks wrought to squeeze the Mystara square peg into the AD&D Great Wheel's circular hole. ;)
Regards,
Eric Anondson
So the Elemental system in Mystaria is different, with Fire opposing Air rather than Water? How would the Paraelements be treated in such a system? For instance, would Fire mages hate Ice Mages and compete with them?
--Mystara has no gods, and for this I am happy NB
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
[b]Yes, I believe that Damocles was descibed as an asteroid belt currently.
So the Elemental system in Mystaria is different, with Fire opposing Air rather than Water?
It's not that Air and Fire are opposed as elements, it's just that on Old Alphatia two factions developed, Followers of the air and followers of flame. It was only the two sects who were opposed, not the elements themselves.
After the followers of Air fled and destroyed the planet (but not all the inhabitants or the plane - it's still there, filled with air) some Followers of Flame left and wandered the outer planes for 1,400 years later before making it to Mystara.
One thing I don't understand about the AD&D version of Old Alphatia being Damocles is how it took the Flaems so long to reach Glantri. Also wasn't the meteor that struck Darokin in the Wrath of the Immortals a part of Damocles? Not sure about that one...
Originally posted by Edgewaters
Contrast this with Atruaghin. There are no mountains or Broken Lands between Darokin and Atruaghin, and yet, just a weeks ride from Darokin City itself, there are jungle pyramids where Maya-like priests perform human sacrifice on a regular basis. This strikes me as bizarre.
Well, yeah. But then again, Atruaghin is located on the fringes of the Known World - with very little beyond it (I know, there's Sind and the Desert Nomads and Hule and all that stuff - but they are quite a different story, aren't they?). As for Ethengar - with Heldann up north, it is (slightly) more central, which makes their difference more striking.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
So the Elemental system in Mystaria is different, with Fire opposing Air rather than Water? How would the Paraelements be treated in such a system? For instance, would Fire mages hate Ice Mages and compete with them?
As far as the elemental aspect of the OD&D Mystara cosmology, there were no para-elemental planes, purely the four planes Air, Earth, Fire, and Water.
Otherwise, the elemental cosmology can be somed up in six sentences, it's a pretty logical system.
- Air has dominance over Water.
- Water has dominance over Fire.
- Fire has dominance over Earth.
- Earth has dominance over Air.
- Air and Fire are in opposition.
- Earth and Water are in opposition.
But now for what dominance and opposition means in OD&D.
Dominance results in double damage. Save vs. Spells to take normal damage. When a creature has dominance, it takes minimum damage from the creature it has dominance over.
Opposition results in hostility, something like a –8 or –4 penalty to reaction roles. No change in how damage occurs.
I would imagine that an Ice mage would be drawing upon energy from the Plane of Water. Ice is water really, but in a solid state. A Fire mage would probably fear an Ice mage's power, but probably do whatever he could diminish or sabotage an Ice mage from secret because an open confrontation would spell the Fire mage's defeat.
Bringing in Paraelementalism in this, I don't think there ever were true AD&D-like paralementals in OD&D. Rather, there were blends like mixing Law with the elements, giving us the Fundamentals. Then there was the likewise blend of elements with Chaos.
But if you wanted to bring in Paraelementalism, say that an Ice paraelemental is a Water elemental defeated by Air, Steam is a Fire elemental defeated by Water, Magma is an Earth elemental defeated by Fire, and Dust is an Air elemental defeated by Earth. A defeated elemental would lose it's dominance edge over other elementals, and would not be in opposition to any other elementals.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
destroying them on and in Mystara.
Ethengar could attack it's neighbours all the time but what are their first interests? Horses. The steppes provide the food and the best ground for their warfare. Much better at defending on their on land then attacking in rough or mountainous terrain. And why would those around them attack? Only to eliminate them. What use is this land to wizards, dwarves, or sea going vikings.
Atruaghin clans could be conquered by Darokin, but why? The national psyche says "war is bad for business, dead men don't buy your goods". Additionally, Darokin is a good farming country. Why conquer lands full of trees and have to labour to clear the land when they have "huge... tracts of land" that are flat and fertile (Streel Plains). Plus there's the platuea.
Rockhome - nobody but the dwarves would want it as bad as the dwarves are willing to "pay" for it.
Ylaruam - the people their have a great dream for this desert. This is the way they should be living in their minds. Attack someone if you can but don't risk losing what you have. In the reverse, attackers would mostly do so just to weaken or conquer, certainly not for the land.
I hope you get the idea of what I'm thinking. And by no means have there not been any battles and border shifting in the past.
One last thought as well. We live in an age of "isn't it a small world". These lands aren't quite as small as we may think, especially with such low population density overall. If your wagon is only travelling about 16 miles a day, that's only 2 hexes, *in a whole days travel*. There is still a lot of wilderness; claimed but untouched.
Originally posted by Hugin
We live in an age of "isn't it a small world". These lands aren't quite as small as we may think, especially with such low population density overall. If your wagon is only travelling about 16 miles a day, that's only 2 hexes, *in a whole days travel*. There is still a lot of wilderness; claimed but untouched.
That's an extremely good point.
Still, the cultures differ much more than european cultures did. The Arabs, Mongolians and Native Americans don't seem to fit in there quite as they should. Still, this can easily be explained by magic... ;)
Havard