The Dark Sun 3rd Edition .pdf on Athas.org doesn't mention this, so hm, what is the thoughts on this? The standard method for 3rd Ed is 4d6 take 3 best, is that the base line for Athasians now?
Or as the .pdf seems ot suggest kind of base it off the players booklet from Dark Sun boxed set?
While I can't stand "munchkins/powergamers", the extremes of abilities in Athas were one reason I liked it...ok you're bone sword may break but you could kick the beastie to death! ;)
(ok we're all mini-munchkins at heart, but anyone wanting to play a cleric/wizard/sorceror/mage/fighter/+5 prestige classes Hypergalactic Spacehamster of Doom in my games can go take a jump!
*snicker*)If you notice, the creatures and other aspects of dark sun that are included in the Athas.org releases reflect this change, which helps keep things balanced, especially with Challenge Ratings and whatnot.
Hm, well think I'd PREFFER it to have higher scores than average, that I found did actually lend it flavour.
Regarding Monsters for Athas, *nod*, well I don't like the "tyranny of mediocrity" that tends to affect 3rd ed in regards to monsters ;)
That is their terribly bland scores based on "average" and "elite" array, plus assuming so many NPC humanoids are "warriors"...*sigh*
Athas.org has done a really great job doing the creatures up for 3rd ED, but think I'd preffer PCs and NPCs to have higher stats.
Grummore,
Ah not really sure if I can or should, in fact maybe I'll remove much of it and just put a link to Athas.org. I originally put it up for a DS campaign I did online for a while, which eventually fell apart muchly due to technological problems (It was a PIA then setting it up over WEBRPG, nowadays htough OpenRPG is a much better alternative).
Don't think there's much I can really add to better Athas currently, though I have plans for some Athasian art ;)
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
xlorepdarkhelm,
Hm, well think I'd PREFFER it to have higher scores than average, that I found did actually lend it flavour.
Regarding Monsters for Athas, *nod*, well I don't like the "tyranny of mediocrity" that tends to affect 3rd ed in regards to monsters ;)
That is their terribly bland scores based on "average" and "elite" array, plus assuming so many NPC humanoids are "warriors"...*sigh*
Athas.org has done a really great job doing the creatures up for 3rd ED, but think I'd preffer PCs and NPCs to have higher stats.
That's what I liked about the point buy system. Instead of using 25 points for character generation, use more. I ran a campaign where my characters could all point up with 40 points each. That made for a rather high-powered campaign. It also made it rather difficult to gauge challenge ratings. The nice thing about point buy is that people like myself, who generally rolls 6 or less on a d20 (or has far too frequently rolled up a total of 3 - 6 on 4d6, drop 1 die) have an equal chance at a decent character as someone who usually rolls much higher.
Athas.org has done a really great job doing the creatures up for 3rd ED, but think I'd preffer PCs and NPCs to have higher stats.
Purely a psychological block but up by the defamed id in your subcounsious relating to the non integration of newer material with the neural blockages of older, more nostaligic systems. Don't worry, after a full frontal lobotamy, you'll be blankly staring into space like the rest of us.
While higher scores do give the setting some illusion of flavor (sorry, numbers don't tell good stories, people do), there are dozens of ways around it. Upping the racial adjustments, alternate dice (the old 5d4 system), using a higher point buy system (I use only 32), etc, all things that Athas.org should put into sidebar style 'optional rules' text in the core doc *hint, hint*.
However, NPCs still roll 3d6, because of the people you run in under the Dark Sun won't die of old age, and aren't necessarily of the ''superior'' breed of many athasian. However, their are far more elite NPCs in my conversion of the setting, and also superior and gifted creatures, which are used for bosses or interesting NPCs, and which have the following stats to place:
Superior: 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 10 (characters with no real weakness to exploit, and strong in many places)
Gifted: 20, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 (an average character, as nonelite, but with one very high stat, which only athasians may get naturally)
By applying those correctly, I don't think you will upset the balance of your game in any sensible way, especially considering all the hardships low-level characters have to face in Athas, warranting the extra stats IMO (and keep in mind 5d4 is about 1 point better on average for stats, and gives a very slight chance of a 20)
I would really ahve to update my website with my 3.5 material... hmm... can't wait until summer...
(It does have relevance if you export DS characters to other worlds, I suppose, but that should hardly be the principal motivation for fiddling with the stat generation. Imho
)
But very high stats in 2e were more significant than in 3rd ed...but we already had a discussion like that by email...everyone as it pleases him (or her...any female Dark Sun fans here?)!
Totally. Infinite diveristy in infinite combinations, as the saying goes ;)
But it would be very nice if the athas.org team would take Mach2.5's hint (or rather his "Wink mit dem Zaunpfahl" as we would say in German) and include some sidebars about possible variants.
Yeah, good idea. Especially with UA-inspired Variant Fever gripping the community...
http://www.sederqvist.com/ao/3e.htm
Still think you could present some non standard options that are not fully supported, but presented as alternatives for those wanting a more 'pure' conversion (wouldn't really take much if you think about it). I wouldn't use most of them (mostly pleased with what is already there), but I do know those that would prefer them to the standard (Silverblade surely isn't alone in his opinion).
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Still think you could present some non standard options that are not fully supported, but presented as alternatives for those wanting a more 'pure' conversion (wouldn't really take much if you think about it). I wouldn't use most of them (mostly pleased with what is already there), but I do know those that would prefer them to the standard (Silverblade surely isn't alone in his opinion).
My question to this is why do they have to bother and do that when DMs can do whatever they want anyways?
If it's not there, create it.
I'm all about variant rules, to a point anyways.
Besides, even if they were added it would just be in the errata since they don't plan to touch the core rules ever again, or until 4th Ed comes out or 3.5.5 whichever is sooner, heh.
Besides, even if they were added it would just be in the errata since they don't plan to touch the core rules ever again, or until 4th Ed comes out or 3.5.5 whichever is sooner, heh.
Really? Wow. There's a getting to be a fair old list of errata. And might the Dragon/Dungeon crossover not impact in some way on DS3 Core? It's no biggie, I guess, but I'd have thought we'd see an update of some kind when the version with images comes out
Besides, even if they were added it would just be in the errata since they don't plan to touch the core rules ever again, or until 4th Ed comes out or 3.5.5 whichever is sooner, heh.
Wrong. The image version will contain all the errata.
However, alternative ability score modes are up to the DM. It's in the DMG, no need to replicate it.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Wrong. The image version will contain all the errata.
Oh yeah, keep forgetting that nice little tidbit.
Images!
However, alternative ability score modes are up to the DM. It's in the DMG, no need to replicate it.
Aye.
Very simply add +2 to EVERY stat for every being on Athas as a "sidebar" rule?
And, if they ever leave Athas, this +2 is lost as they are "seperated from their native sustaining environment"...to prevent munchkins world hopping for better characters?
To me, the sheer raw power and brutality of Dark Sun are vital features of it's intrinsic nature. DS folk kick *ASS* because they have to. There's no plate mail, no greatsword of steel (in quantity), so when a slavering beast with NATURAL amrour and weaponry comes up you are *DEAD MEAT* except for the fact Athasians have become tough SOB themselves.
For exmaple consider the fact Dune Reapers, SIlt runenrs etc all have natural armour, claws, fangs etc etc. Compare that with the (demi)human races and numbers which are far less than in "normal" worlds. King Kalak for example *CANNOT* call on 10,000 trained combatants and 50,000 civilian militia because Athas simply canot support enough people AND many of its civilians are subsistance living/slaves.
So I'd bet strongly every blasted person in Athas you'd ever meet who isn't a mind-numbed slave or diletante is at least 2nd level (probably expert 1st/warrior 1st or commoner 1st/warrior 1st) with Str 14--18 and Con 16--20. This is simply due to the fact of Survival of the Fittest, possible magical effects (hey lot of odd mutations on Athas), and having a brutally tough life style.
Every farmer would need to learn to wield a spear as well as a hoe, because so many dern things will make meal of him never mind his crops!
Slave owners have a real problem, not only do they HAVE ot have guards and overseers to control their slaves, they also HAVE to have combatant able folk to deal with monster problems, bandits etc. This is a further drain on resources. Your slave overseers would need to be combat able to perform both duties.
Youi'd probably need crodlu riders and/or scouts to intercept problems before they ruined crops which you simply *cannot* afford to let happen.
The end result is that Athas would be a place ONLY for the tough and able, and over milenia, plus magical effects, this would surely mean the average Athasian would be tough!
Very simply add +2 to EVERY stat for every being on Athas as a "sidebar" rule? And, if they ever leave Athas, this +2 is lost as they are "seperated from their native sustaining environment"...to prevent munchkins world hopping for better characters?
Because such a rule makes no sense. The evolutionary/mutation trait you describe is not an environmental factor that disappears once you travel to another plane.
1) "Hey, it's a kind of magic!"
2) The toughness of PCs and NPCs was one of the things that was *very* important to the flavour of Athasian campaigns.
I like the point buy system, because the group members are balanced to each other and it gives you (as DM) the control of how "hard" a world is. Athas is a hard world and more ponits would be appropiate.
I'm not realy a fan of high stats and according to the DMG I decided for my group getting 30 points with the base-score of 8 in every ability (that would be between Tougher campaign and High-powered campaign), if you think, that's not enough just give them more points, maybe 40 or 50, whatever you like, but don't forget that the CR wouldn't get the same effect those charcters.
but don't forget that the CR wouldn't get the same effect those charcters.
Very, very true.
Keep in mind that if you do use the CR system, beefing the PCs means that you have to up the ante on the other end as well or Athas stops being so harsh and starts being a walk through the park for the party. The monsters in ToA and TotDL are measured against the standard party. Adjust your game accordingly.
If a DM thinks it is ridiculous for a Dark Sun campaign to use the amount of magic items which are assumed to be in possesion of a character at a certain level, this would also affect the CR
. Higher than normal stats could make up for this and this is one of the reasons the possibility of higher stats is mentioned in the core rulebook 2.*nod* yah very true! Last time I played Dark SUn in 2nd ed, IIRC, they characters were lvl 7, had 1 steel non-magic sword, a +1 steel dagger, +1 obsidian sword and an ioun stone...that was it , bar potions.
Originally posted by Bengeldorn
I'm not realy a fan of high stats and according to the DMG I decided for my group getting 30 points with the base-score of 8 in every ability (that would be between Tougher campaign and High-powered campaign), if you think, that's not enough just give them more points, maybe 40 or 50, whatever you like, but don't forget that the CR wouldn't get the same effect those charcters.
I give 40 personally, but I need to tweak the CR system appropriately cause it does have a major impact on it.
Will probably switch to the Star Wars D20 XP system and ditch CR and just use it for a rough guideline anyways since I am wanting it to be more story based and less hack n slash based.
Also plan to have less magic items as well, the PCs will be lucky to have a non-magical iron or other metal weapon at 5th level, hehe.
So CRs will be very rough, and I'll have to adjust some things of course in order to pull this off, wish me luck.
Actually, inflated ability scores and less magical items would lead to too powerful characters at low levels, and inferior characters at high level.
Yes, you are right. I take the CR mostly as a rough guideline. And I really am no fan of the "standard" magic item ratio, so I have to find a way to work around it.
What mostly irritates me about you, Jon, is the way you comment on higher-than-normal stats in the DS faq. It sounds as if one is a hopeless nostalgic wo hasn't gotten what D&D 3rd is about. And the option is there in the core rulebook 2, a fact that could be mentioned in the faq. Please don't take this personal, but I get the impression you always try to hammer down the stat discussion with "3rd edition - impossible".
To demonstrate my good will:
for you.Originally posted by Elonarc
What mostly irritates me about you, Jon, is the way you comment on higher-than-normal stats in the DS faq.
You mean it's not the lightning bolt thing?
Originally posted by Elonarc
What mostly irritates me about you, Jon, is the way you comment on higher-than-normal stats in the DS faq. It sounds as if one is a hopeless nostalgic wo hasn't gotten what D&D 3rd is about. And the option is there in the core rulebook 2, a fact that could be mentioned in the faq. Please don't take this personal, but I get the impression you always try to hammer down the stat discussion with "3rd edition - impossible".
Jon is just a hard stickler on the rules like I am.
I'm trying to alleivate that some though and just come up with my own stuff for my campaigns, like I have been wanting to do for some time now, and see how that runs.
Will help once I get some new and better players too, hehe.
Originally posted by Elonarc
(or her...any female Dark Sun fans here?)!
But of course. I don't play right now (no group) but am still a fan and female the last time I checked. :D
It sounds as if one is a hopeless nostalgic wo hasn't gotten what D&D 3rd is about. And the option is there in the core rulebook 2, a fact that could be mentioned in the faq.
Read further below in the FAQ about alternative experience point systems. I assume GMs know the ability score generation methods.
EDIT: However, maybe the GMs need to be reminded about that. I'll add a line about it in the next iteration of the FAQ. Bist du jetzt glücklich?
Originally posted by Mach2.5
all things that Athas.org should put into sidebar style 'optional rules' text in the core doc *hint, hint*.
Yeah, it's going to go in. Considering I have to deal with this question once every three nanoseconds, putting it somewhere obvious might help.
Of course, then I'll just be arguing about the rationale over and over.
/me wonders if PDF supports the tag ...
EDIT: However, maybe the GMs need to be reminded about that. I'll add a line about it in the next iteration of the FAQ. Bist du jetzt glücklich?
JA! Danke, Jon. Sehr nett, dass Du Verständnis für einen streitbares Pokémon wie mich zeigst
Thank you very much. Although I know about the alternative Methods to roll up stats it makes them "more official" when they are mentioned in the faq (yes, even if they are in core rulebook 2.
). Here, have a cookie Cookies for me? Hmmm.... *detect poison*
I'm now considering adding in a few other changes (thanks to Unearthed Arcana), like Wound/Vitality points, Class Defense Bonus, Armor is Damage Reduction (only, I'm going with the full AC bonus converts to DR instead), and probably going to use the non-spellcasting-ranger variant. I've been thinking of making my version of DS not *very* magical - imagic exists, but is not proliferate across the world. However, psionics "fill the gaps" and is widespread. I'm still looking into how to achieve this (I also like the bell-curve dice rolls (3d6) instead of a d20, and I like the idea of variable bonuses as well, but that's just me).
I'm now considering adding in a few other changes (thanks to Unearthed Arcana), like Wound/Vitality points, Class Defense Bonus, Armor is Damage Reduction (only, I'm going with the full AC bonus converts to DR instead), and probably going to use the non-spellcasting-ranger variant
I'm not usually one to gawk over a book of crunchified options, but I have to admit, WOTC really outdid themselves with some fine alternate rule sets. I'm definately implementing a few (like the armor is damage reduction, defense bonus, savage bard, druidic avenger, urban ranger and wilderness rogue, wild shape aspects of nature variant, thinking of using flaws, and a few more).
The defense bonus idea is particularly useful on DS. Basically, it adds a bonus to AC as a char goes up in levels, making up for the lack of higher end armors on Athas and cheap arsed DMs like me who don't hand out much in the way of magic items as compensation. Plus, its also a bit more realistic, IMO. Characters can hit better as they level up, but gain no ability to avoid being hit? Get real. Anyhow, it puts the CR of monsters a bit more in line for those who are sticklers on such things.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I'm not usually one to gawk over a book of crunchified options, but I have to admit, WOTC really outdid themselves with some fine alternate rule sets. I'm definately implementing a few (like the armor is damage reduction, defense bonus, savage bard, druidic avenger, urban ranger and wilderness rogue, wild shape aspects of nature variant, thinking of using flaws, and a few more).
The defense bonus idea is particularly useful on DS. Basically, it adds a bonus to AC as a char goes up in levels, making up for the lack of higher end armors on Athas and cheap arsed DMs like me who don't hand out much in the way of magic items as compensation. Plus, its also a bit more realistic, IMO. Characters can hit better as they level up, but gain no ability to avoid being hit? Get real. Anyhow, it puts the CR of monsters a bit more in line for those who are sticklers on such things.
Basically, many of the changes I'm implementing are things I liked in d20 Modern and SW:RPG. Plus, there are other things that I had been working on myself (like randomized modifiers & bell-curve rolls), which they have in the UA book that works. I've been thinking about the aspect-of-nature for Druids myself. The Savage Bard works as well. Something else I wanted was a Prestige class-version of the Bard, Ranger and Paladin, and had already begun working on such things, which they handily provide a nice base for me to work off of, as I believe that character development is cool, and am not a fan of people just starting off their character in something that would take some time to achieve, and would be more fun to roleplay (like becoming a Paladin, or joining the Bards).
The Vitality/Wound poitns also seem to work better for Dark Sun campaigns - with the number of healers (realistically) being few and far-between (clerics are supposed to be mainly solitary healers who generally aren't endeared by Sorcerer-Monarchs, Druids even moreso. Templars tend to heal those that benefit their own agendas or that of their masters, and Rangers are kinda similar to Druids in their desert wanderings, IMHO). Characters that heal faster keeps the game on a faster pace, IMHO. Plus, a single lucky shot can take anyone down, regardless of level.
Originally posted by m15a
hey, i just stumbled in here . . . but isn't the difference between the average (mean) score on 4d6, drop lowest only slightly lower than on 5d4? i'm getting ~12.25 vs 12.5. i just did it out kinda fast, though. so i might be wrong.
Let's see.
4d6 = range of 4 - 24. drop the lowest die which would most likely be range 1-3, but double it to take out a full six results (you are basically making 1 die have a range of 4-6 & 4-6, to represent that the low-die results are taken away), so you are looking at a range of 2 - 18. The average of that is 10. However, when adjusted for the weighted end, you are looking at closer to 12, possibly 12 1/4 (12.25), however you won't have a die r0ll like that, so round down to 12.
5d4 = range of 5 - 20. The average is 12.5, but you won't have a die roll like that, so round up to 13. They are close. However something you aren't taking into consideration is that you are more likely to hit the average on a roll of 5d4 than you are on a roll of 4d6, drop the lowest die. You have a higher chance of getting the max or minimum on 4 dice than on 5 dice, as could be shown if you draw out the bell curve results. But basically, they are pretty close, so there isn't too much of a need to use 5d4, especially for wanting higher results, as the 4d6, drop the lowest system would produce a higher-end result than the 2nd Ed DS system of 5d4.
------
And no, I haven't worked on writing programs to show the dynamics of dice rolling for the past 15 years..... Honestly.... You believe me, right?
i just grabbed estimations from a quick matlab script. (6 lines of code or so.) man, i'm a nerd. :-)
Originally posted by m15a
that's true. if you wanted very a lot of 12s or 13s, 5d4 would be better . . .
i just grabbed estimations from a quick matlab script. (6 lines of code or so.) man, i'm a nerd. :-)
I originally had developed a library of subroutines for Pascal, then later C for a "Dice Roller", to be used in a program, which took input from the "standard" Dice-rolling notation found in RPG's. I later converted it to C++ as a class object, and then again into Java. It also has undergone probably about 100 different revisions to simplify, and accelerate the coding for it, but I have never used it in *anything*. Actually, now that I think about it, I had devised the program originally in Atari Basic for their 800XL computers.