Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 02, 2004 21:39:27	At least what level would a character have to be to conduct Advanced Metamorphosis? I was thinking at least 30th level with the 31st level the 1st advanced level. One requirement would be: ability to cast 9th level Arcane spells, ability to manifest 7th level psionics and so on ... Does anyone have any ideas. Has this been posted before? I know of DarkHelm's but are there any others?
#2 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 02, 2004 21:57:24	I listed another one on this thread. currently on the first page. There might be others as well.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2004 0:02:50	Okay, I'm not normally one to jump in and start up with the 'do a search' bit, but this is one case where you'll come up with more threads about it than you can shake a Scortcher at. If you can manage to hitch up with the old WOTC boards, there's even more stuff in there as well.
#4 beyowulf Mar 11, 2004 21:02:30	Hey, just out of curiosity, what would you think of an cleric turned elemental as a Sorceror-Monarch. Also, would such a being be able to grant spells to templars? Afterall they do have a connection to the elemental plane, and it would seem logical.
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 1:07:59	I think that would be a great Idea, except the current Historical Canon of Athas has it that Wizards were the only one able to become SK's .But hey It your world . I know in mine the SK's except for KAlak are all alive. Troy dennings novel depicted an weak-ass kills for millenia old Archmage/Archpsionicists. IMO. But a High level Cleric Turned Elemental would be pretty cool, I can see the Sorcerer-King Ra, God of the Sun having a city somewhere on Athas. but then again his priests can be actual priests and not templars.
#6 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 3:26:44	Also, would such a being be able to grant spells to templars? Afterall they do have a connection to the elemental plane, and it would seem logical. Actually, you'd have some issues with canon. Only those who had a connection to the elemental planes through the living vortices, which have long since become extinct, could grant spell-power to their worshipers. Not quite the same thing as having made a pact with the elemental planes in return for divine magic. You either have to ditch the canon that says the vortices are extinct, or ditch the canon that says you need an living elemental vortex in the first place. Either way, its not likely to become a wildly accepted idea. I personally don't have any issues with having some major population centers run by something other than a stock and standard sorceror-king, such as an advanced elemental being; my only complaint would be with them having templars. It simply gets repetative then anyhow.
#7 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 7:38:22	It would seem to make more sense (to me, anyway) to simply have the "Templars" be Clerics that follow the same elemental plane. That way you get all of the abilities, and don't have to change the canon in any way. They could still be referred to as Templars, hold the same position as templars, and have nearly the same abilities; the only difference would be that their source of power is derived from the elemental plane itself rather than the monarch.
#8 beyowulf Mar 12, 2004 8:06:18	Well I suppose you would have to rename them. Elemental-Kings? Elemental Lords?
#9 Sysane Mar 12, 2004 8:37:19	You could always have your elemental-king conduct a ritual that could connect/link him with one of the vortices that were tied to the four dead Sorceror Monarchs. Thats what I ended up doing in my campaign. Taraskir, the Lion King now has templars (yes he was brought back to life). -Sysane, The Terror of Urik
#10 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 15:15:49	It would seem to make more sense (to me, anyway) to simply have the "Templars" be Clerics that follow the same elemental plane. That way you get all of the abilities, and don't have to change the canon in any way. Sorry, I misunderstood thinking you were refering to the clerical templars gaining their spell powers from the advanced elemental being itself. You could always have your elemental-king conduct a ritual that could connect/link him with one of the vortices that were tied to the four dead Sorceror Monarchs. Thats what I ended up doing in my campaign. Taraskir, the Lion King now has templars (yes he was brought back to life). Just to point out, the vortices were used to originally establish the link between champion and the elemental planes. After that, they were apparently useless since its said that they have all become extinct, including the ones originally used by Borys. All that aside, I'd love to see what you've done with the revival of Taraskir.
#11 beyowulf Mar 12, 2004 22:02:56	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Sorry, I misunderstood thinking you were refering to the clerical templars gaining their spell powers from the advanced elemental being itself. Well actually thats what -I- was referring to. But, hear me out. If I recall correctly, in (I think)Earth, Air, Water and Fire, its says that some clerics believe that they get their power from making pacts with powerful elemental lords. Now you're advanced being is a powerful elemental lord, so couldn't he in theory, grant elemental powers, if his "templars" made a pact to serve him? The "templars" would in fact be elemental clerics, but their fealty would also be to the elemental advanced being. Thoughts?
#12 zombiegleemax Mar 13, 2004 6:39:05	Originally posted by beyowulf Well actually thats what -I- was referring to. But, hear me out. If I recall correctly, in (I think)Earth, Air, Water and Fire, its says that some clerics believe that they get their power from making pacts with powerful elemental lords. Now you're advanced being is a powerful elemental lord, so couldn't he in theory, grant elemental powers, if his "templars" made a pact to serve him? The "templars" would in fact be elemental clerics, but their fealty would also be to the elemental advanced being. Thoughts? During the Green Age, Athasian clerics thought they were serving gods, not elemental lords. The "elemental lord" bit is clearly a final tiny piece of false-god worship that's survived down the turning of Ages. --clerics get their spells from all elementals of a type, not any single one NB
#13 zombiegleemax Mar 13, 2004 9:39:50	Originally posted by beyowulf Well actually thats what -I- was referring to. But, hear me out. If I recall correctly, in (I think)Earth, Air, Water and Fire, its says that some clerics believe that they get their power from making pacts with powerful elemental lords. Now you're advanced being is a powerful elemental lord, so couldn't he in theory, grant elemental powers, if his "templars" made a pact to serve him? The "templars" would in fact be elemental clerics, but their fealty would also be to the elemental advanced being. Thoughts? Even if a Cleric were to become a fully transformed elemental, I think there's a difference in that you reside on the Prime Material plane, as well as the fact that your powers are still granted by your "superiors", if you will. But again, we're just talking about opinions on canon, there's nothing that says you have to follow it (or for that matter, nothing says that I am right). You obviously like the idea, so use it!
#14 zombiegleemax Mar 13, 2004 9:43:11	Originally posted by Nero's Boot During the Green Age, Athasian clerics thought they were serving gods, not elemental lords. The "elemental lord" bit is clearly a final tiny piece of false-god worship that's survived down the turning of Ages. --clerics get their spells from all elementals of a type, not any single one NB I'm not sure I agree with this. One would think that there would be some sort of heirarchy on the Elemental planes; after all, they fight wars against other planes and that, to me, indicates some sort of organization. Also, clerics in 2E had the chance to be summoned to the plane in order to perform tasks or help with battles. Someone or something would have to issue said summons. I'm not saying that the Cleric's powers are granted by a single entity, but I'd think that Elemental Lords do exist, and most likely have a lot of influence over their domain.
#15 beyowulf Mar 13, 2004 11:05:17	Originally posted by Porkchops Even if a Cleric were to become a fully transformed elemental, I think there's a difference in that you reside on the Prime Material plane, as well as the fact that your powers are still granted by your "superiors", if you will. But again, we're just talking about opinions on canon, there's nothing that says you have to follow it (or for that matter, nothing says that I am right). You obviously like the idea, so use it! Well, I am not trying to force my ideas on anyone. Just trying to spark conversation.
#16 zombiegleemax Mar 13, 2004 11:41:48	Well, I am not trying to force my ideas on anyone. Just trying to spark conversation. No sweat. I keep the elemental planes a place of intangible and esoteric concepts. A heirarchy of the elementals adds a bit too much 'humanism' to the place. Same thing holds true with the idea that there are specific individuals that grant spells to clerics. The way I run it, the planes themselves are responsible for such spellcasting, with the elemental lords as simply powerful go-betweens. The lords are the ones who contact mortals on Athas, but it is on behalf of the plane. Not that the planes are intelligent, no more than any force of nature is, or nature itself. Its simply that they are a more active force of nature.
#17 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 13, 2004 11:42:08	It's an interesting thought, making some elemental cleric into a sorcerer-king-like being. However, the "sorcerer-king" aspects of granting spells comes from what Borys did with the Dark Lens (as well as the initial metamorphosis stages for each of them according to the canon material). The "Champion" aspects which made them powerful and focused on hunting/killing a specific race were granted by Rajaat, which tends to limit them to those he specifically chose. And canon sources state he picked his champions from the "best & most malleable to his will" of his defiler students (with the exception of Hamanu, of course). as such, while a Cleric-Elemental could potentially take over a city, he wouldn't quite have the same ability & power of a sorcerer-king. Something to keep in mind however is the idea of the Mind Lords - very powerful psions which together can rival the Sorcerer-Monarchs. Of course, they seem more lich-like now, having placed their consciousness into obsidian orbs. maybe there's a city somewhere which has 4 Cleric-Elementals (Air, Earth, Fire & Water) which work together to keep their city relatively "free" from the SMs' influences.
#18 zombiegleemax Mar 13, 2004 12:12:18	Originally posted by beyowulf Well, I am not trying to force my ideas on anyone. Just trying to spark conversation. Oh, I'm sorry if what I wrote came across as aggressive or dismissive of the conversation; To the contrary, I'm really enjoying it! All I meant was to take everything I say with a grain of salt, because they're just my personal opinions (and not necessarily educated ones at that ), and when it comes down to it, it's YOUR world and if you like it, I think you should use it!
#19 beyowulf Mar 13, 2004 23:23:37	Originally posted by Porkchops Oh, I'm sorry if what I wrote came across as aggressive or dismissive of the conversation; To the contrary, I'm really enjoying it! All I meant was to take everything I say with a grain of salt, because they're just my personal opinions (and not necessarily educated ones at that ), and when it comes down to it, it's YOUR world and if you like it, I think you should use it! Nah, your post wasn't really agressive or dismissive. I just didn't want to come off as the next Waroverlord. That, and I don't GM or currently play in a game. I still love the setting, and occasionally get what I think would be a cool idea, and I like to see what everyone else thinks.
#20 zombiegleemax Mar 14, 2004 0:36:08	Nah, your post wasn't really agressive or dismissive. I just didn't want to come off as the next Waroverlord. By the gods above I doubt that you, or anyone else for that matter, could accomplish that feat if the tried. BTW, I've been giving a ton of thought (and sketching more than a few notes) about the impact of clerics, the elemental planes, and advanced elemental beings, so any forthcoming ideas are more than welcome.
#21 beyowulf Mar 14, 2004 7:04:32	:D Okay, well I've frequently wondered how clerics -do- get their powers. It seemed to me that a reasonable way for this to happen would be this. That during the initiation ritual, the cleric is bound to a tiny elemental, forming some sort of symbiotic relationship. As the cleric grows, so does the elemental and the powers it can grant. Thoughts?
#22 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 14, 2004 9:50:05	Originally posted by beyowulf :D Okay, well I've frequently wondered how clerics -do- get their powers. It seemed to me that a reasonable way for this to happen would be this. That during the initiation ritual, the cleric is bound to a tiny elemental, forming some sort of symbiotic relationship. As the cleric grows, so does the elemental and the powers it can grant. Thoughts? I think Earth, Air, Fire, Water had some cool ideas about that. I also would love to see some PrC's developed for each of the elemental/paraelemental clerics that expand upon their specific element, and helps make them more and more unique.
#23 zombiegleemax Mar 14, 2004 10:47:51	In my campaign, if a cleric reaches a high enough level, he or she is transformed into an elemental and becomes one with the element that he or she worships. Since no PC has reached this level, I haven't yet decided whether after this change they are whisked off to the elemental planes or stay on Athas, I would lean towards the former.
#24 Sysane Mar 15, 2004 12:41:43	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Just to point out, the vortices were used to originally establish the link between champion and the elemental planes. After that, they were apparently useless since its said that they have all become extinct, including the ones originally used by Borys. All that aside, I'd love to see what you've done with the revival of Taraskir. [/b] I thought the vortices attached to the SKs were still alive as in living creatures still attached to the SKs? I figured with serveral of the original SKs dead that freed afew of the vortices up. I inturpted that they wouldn't die just because the SK did. In my campaign the pc took up the mantle of the Order of The Claw from the City by The Silt Sea sup. They were a cult devoted to Taraksir and ultimately went on a quest to retreive his soul (which Dregoth hid away) and rejoined it to his body locked away under Guestinal (sp?). It was pretty cool to say the least :D -Sysane, The Terror of Urik
#25 zombiegleemax Mar 15, 2004 12:57:28	excellent point sysane just because the SM died, why does their vortex have too die as well and we must also remember that Borys did't ask the vorticies to come, they were attracted to the power unleashed by the metamorphosis and came voluntarily and, for arguements sake that we decide dead SM's vortecies are out, then what about Androphinis's(sp) vortex?
#26 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 15, 2004 13:06:08	I've been working with the idea that the vortices have merged witht he SM's, becoming one being, of sorts. They don't really exist any more as a individual creature, but are simply part of the SM's.
#27 zombiegleemax Mar 15, 2004 15:25:26	and, for arguements sake that we decide dead SM's vortecies are out, then what about Androphinis's(sp) vortex? Hopefully I'm reading your question right. It does pose an interesting point. I normally go by the text that states that the vortices are all extinct. By that phrase, that would mean that the original vortices that acted as conduits for the SK's-to-be are alos by now dead. But that doesn't lend itself to much drifting bits of creative thought now, does it? So, assuming that the one's originally bound up with the SKs are still alive. With the deaths of five champions, then there's room for expansion. Someone simply has to replicate the massive undertaking that Borys' did with the Dark Lens when he set the champions on their path to dragon-hood. If that's the kind of power we're talking about, its not very likely that another being is going to simply pop up without some sort of dramatic event to herald the birth of a new 'spell granting' being. As for Andropoinis' vortex, if he still lives, then his vortex would still be bound to him (I'm still working on some kind of creative way to bring him back, perhaps a brainstorm for another thread), so that leaves really only four vortices.
#28 zombiegleemax Mar 15, 2004 21:23:18	I didn't like the idea of "Living" Vortices. I decided that whatever Borys did with the Dark Lens created the vortices that were attached to the Sk's and when they die the vortices simply dissapate. I think it a much more realistic concept than saying living vortices were attracted to the Sks and attached themselves to them and then only after a few thousand years they became extinct. Sounds like TSR was just trying to ensure no PC could attempt to become a SK. With the Dark Lens currently in the valley of fire, under lava, they still can't.
#29 beyowulf Mar 15, 2004 22:04:06	Is it described anywhere what living vortice is? Or stats given? It seems a little strange that a vortice could serve a conduit for such enormous amout of elemental energy, but at the same time die off so easily. Seems contrived. Isn't there an epic spell called "Origin Of The Species", where you can create a species? One could simply recreate them. Of course, strictly from a character's perspective, finding out about the how the SK's are able to grant spell-casting powers, and what enables it, would be a campaign in itself, at least.
#30 zombiegleemax Mar 16, 2004 1:21:56	I didn't like the idea of "Living" Vortices. I decided that whatever Borys did with the Dark Lens created the vortices that were attached to the Sk's and when they die the vortices simply dissapate I've always hated the vorteice thing as a lame cover up for not letting the PCs become spell granting advanced beings. Granted, I'm not sure I want my PCs as near gods with their own legions of templars, but come on! The vortice thing is so trite. Is it described anywhere what living vortice is? They were nevery really described much (a line or two, but that's all), but I also don't see them as something requiring stats.
#31 zombiegleemax Mar 16, 2004 7:17:47	The only place I know of that gives any information on the Living Vortices is Dragon Kings.