Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 angal Mar 03, 2004 0:46:33	Ok whats going on with that spell, Cuz I'm thinking once you are a lvl 15 caster you can deal other 39D6 or 30D6 with a forth lvl spell, can someome tell me how the damage of this spell works?
#2 Nived Mar 03, 2004 4:50:04	Well it certainly seems that way. As far as I can tell yes at 15th level you would be dealing massive damage with Dalamar's Lightning Lance. It seems he does not mess around At 15th level it seems that a character would make three ragned touch attacks. Each attack dealing 3d6 points of (I assume piercing since its a lance) damage + 10D6 electrical damage. Thus totaling 39d6 points of damage, assuming one didn't make their fortitude save or had spell resistance. This makes for a possible 234 points of damage in a single turn against one enemy! Though I suspect the odds of rolling 39d6s and having them all come up 6 is so close to nil as makes no odds. This is indeed a powerful spell. But how does it compare? Since we're looking at 15th level lets see what should be the most powerful evocation spell a Wizard (I picked Wizard arbatrarily so bear with me) can cast. At 15th level a Wizard can cast from the 8th level of spells. Two evocation spells caught my eye. First we have Greater Shout, which at 15th level deal 10d6 points of damage that can't be stopped by spell resistance. Again there's a fort save. At first this would seem to be much weaker than Dalamar's Lightning lance... but one must consider that Greater Shout effects EVERYONE in a 60 foot radius... At most Dalamar's Lightning Lance can only effect 3 targets at 15th level for 13d6 each. This doesn't even take into account that Greater Shout causes deafness. We also have Polar Ray, Frost Ray's big brother. At first glance it seems Dalamar's Lightning Lance puts it to shame, considering it only would do 15d6 cold damage against one target at 15th level. However Polar Ray does not allow a saving throw of any type (meaning those rogues can't dodge) So would Dalamar's Lightning Lance be the most powerful spell in a 15th level Wizard's arsenal? Hardly. Is it a powerful spell that ages well? Oh heck yeah! Dalamar does not mess around. However if you feel its too powerful might I suggest a simple fix? Have the spellcaster devide his caster levels amongst the lances. So a 15th level Wizard could have 3 lances that each do 3d6+5d6 however I don't think that it really needs it. Remember its only the 3d6 non-electrical damage that bypasses protection from elements.
#3 brimstone Mar 03, 2004 8:49:06	Your biggest problem with Lightning Lance though is the thing you mentioned first...the wizard must make a ranged touch attack. Now, at 15th level...you're going to be fighting some pretty serious baddies...baddies that are going to be pretty damn difficult for a wizard to have a successful attack because of their low BAB. So...although if the wizard hits...it's gonna kick major bootie. I think it balances well in the end.
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2004 9:57:57	Granted, it was compared in damage to an 8th level spell. If I wanted to make Lightning Lance more powerful, and closer in compareable spell level, I'd Maximize it, for a 7th level slot, ensuring I did the most damage possible with it. Yes it's a good spell that scales up nicely, but as was brought up before, your target still gets a save and SR, so you're punching through that. I'd just cast it at other wizards faster. Hmmm, I suppose you could Quicken it to make it an 8th level spell, and fry someone as a free action, that'd be nice.
#5 invarus Mar 03, 2004 18:01:30	This spell is 4th level. 4th level. Think about it. Even the idea of comparing a 4th level spell to...oh...let's just say 6th level spell, is purely ridiculous. That last guy said something like what I am, sort of. And let's take a look at this, a careful look: Wizards has established careful criteria for spell damage vs. spell level, I don't care what conditions surround the dealing of that damage. I'm fairly certain 4th level spells are not supposed to be capable of dealing up to 39d6 damage. As for high AC baddies, I laugh at thee. No, just kidding there, not trying to insult anyone, but remember, most high level enemies get their AC from natural and standard armor, not deflection or dexterity. Most wizards I see have pretty high dexterity anyway, so their chances of hitting are actually fairly good, considering that a lot of higher level enemies actually lose AC against the wizard for being of larger than medium size. Alright, I hope you see my points as valid. Crazy setting Dragonlance, that's just my carefully constructed opinion from the bits and pieces I've seen.
#6 Nived Mar 03, 2004 19:03:45	Just remember it doesn't get that third lance (and thus another 13d6) untill level 15, and then it stays the same damage till level 20.
#7 invarus Mar 03, 2004 20:30:57	Ugh, horrible formatting on my last post. Yes, I realize this perfectly well, but that means nothing, considering as how the maximum cap for spell damage I mentioned is exactly how much damage it -can- deal at its final advancement. Like how 3rd level multi-target spells such as fireball have a maximum cap of 10d6, they reach that cap at 10th level. The main point I'm trying to get across here is not: there are no better spells than this for damage...even though I think that's actually a possibility, but rather that no 4th level spell, that's just one level higher than flame arrow, should be capable of dealing more dice of damage than the strongest existing damage spell in the game. I'd also like to say that at higher levels, my experience suggests that it's often better to go for high-damage, single target spells, as the number of monsters you'll typically encounter at those levels is not all that much, and oftentimes it's best to get rid of enemy damage output (aka. kill off individuals as fast as possible), rather than trying to spread things around. Not trying to be arrogant here, just in case anyone thinks I am, just insistent.
#8 dragontooth Mar 03, 2004 22:08:06	What about Scorching Ray. Its a 2nd lvl spell but when you reach 3 rays the total dmg is 12d6 thats better then 3rd lvl fireball, by a 12th lvl caster. Lightning Lance is the same way basicly.
#9 invarus Mar 04, 2004 0:56:00	Alright, let's see what I can do with this. First of all, I'm just going to declare that scorching ray exceeds the maximum damage dice for its level. Now that that's settled, let's try step 2: assuming that scorching ray is balanced, whether or not it is is irrelevant for this following bit. Okay, so scorching ray is a 2nd level spell that has a cap of 12d6, that's 2 dice above what it should be for a single target 2nd level spell. Dalamar's Lightning Lance is a 4th level spell that has a cap of 39d6, that's 24 dice above what it should be as a single target 4th level spell. It's also 14 dice above what a single target 9th level spell should deal, which says quite a lot, considering it's 5 levels short of 9th. Comparing, scorching ray deals damage that's a little short of a 3rd level spell, one level higher than it. Dalamar's Lightning Lance deals damage that's more than half again as much as a 9th level spell, five levels higher than it. This seems fundamentally wrong. Thoughts?
#10 inkubus Mar 04, 2004 10:39:47	My DM and me have agreed that it's to powerful for a level 4 spell, too. We "fixed" it this way: You can only hit one creature with one lightning lance. So in the end you could still do 39d6 damage altogether but only 13d6 per single target which makes it more balanced and works IMC. Of course, that's just a houserule, but IMO a good one. Cheers, Inkubus.