Timeline question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Timeline question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
max_writer
Mar 03, 2004 13:29:31 Hi,

I'm brand new to the forums though I've been running Greyhawk since I started playing D&D in 1979. I have a quick question. I dropped a letter at Paizo publishing's Sage Advice but I'm here to see if anyone has any ideas or can even direct me to a thread where this has been discussed. I've used what I thought was the correct answer to this for years but I'm not so sure I'm correct.

In the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer pg. 13, it states at the bottom of the left column that there is no year 0 in the Common Year. Thus there are only nine years between 5 CY and -5 CY. However, negative common years given in that supplement and others seem to count a year zero. What is correct?

Should it look like this:

5511 SD = -5 CY
5512 SD = -4 CY
5513 SD = -3 CY
5514 SD = -2 CY
5515 SD = -1 CY
5516 SD = 1 CY
5517 SD = 2 CY
5518 SD = 3 CY
5519 SD = 4 CY
5520 SD = 5 CY

Or should it be:

5510 SD = -5 CY
5511 SD = -4 CY
5512 SD = -3 CY
5513 SD = -2 CY
5514 SD = -1 CY
5515 SD = 0 CY
5516 SD = 1 CY
5517 SD = 2 CY
5518 SD = 3 CY
5519 SD = 4 CY
5520 SD = 5 CY

Thanks,
Andy
#2
zombiegleemax
Mar 03, 2004 14:28:42 There is no CY 0, That is also mentioned in many other official works and in TAB to be sure. Any instances where this seems to be neglected is most likely the authors failure to accomadate for this fact.

I used to know the specifics as to this reaosning and they did make perfect sense once you dwelled on it abit, but it just doesn't seem all that important to remember why. Perhaps when I find some time I'll dig through and reveal this to myself once again, although I'm sure some one else will be able to tell us before then.

I remember it was something like....

CY 1: the crowning, thus was born CY

Moving backwards in time would place CY -1, as a CY 0 wouldn't be a year, it would be nothing, or something similiar to that...

For more "proof" of this there is a timeline online that also is accompanied by thye forumla for converting all other calender dates to CY and vice-versa.

It is known as Steve Wilsons Grey Chronodex and can be found at the link below.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/tamerlain/Greyhawk/GreyChrondex41.html
#3
Greyson
Mar 03, 2004 14:46:57 Hey, Andy.

There is no zero Common Year. So, the more accurate timeline is the former according to your original post.

And Abysslin is right - there is no zero year because the Common Year calendar started with 1, just like the Roman calendar of Exigus. When the Overking heralded his new age, he began it with year one, not year zero.

Did we help answer your question?
#4
max_writer
Mar 03, 2004 15:08:27 Yes, you both helped very much. Thanks. That means I've been doing it right all along and other references to CY in various books and articles are off by a year.

Thanks again.
Andy
#5
grodog
Mar 03, 2004 21:55:13 Andy---

Out of curiosity, what sources did you notice counting year 0/the wrong years?
#6
max_writer
Mar 04, 2004 7:24:00 If I remember correctly (I'm at work and all the notes on my timeline are at home), all of them since From the Ashes. The use of the negative common year became more common after Adventure Begins and on through 3.0. It was never used too extensively that I could find and was mainly prominent in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and Living Greyhawk Journal #1.

For instance, the entry in Living Greyhawk Gazetteer lists the Great Kingdom as having been formed in -216 CY but other sources (including the original boxed set) list it as 5299 SD (-217 CY according to my calculations).

Here is a rough list from what I have at work. These negative years use the "no year zero rule" (unless my calculations are incorrect):

5148 SD (-368 CY) City of Gradsul founded by nobles of House Rhola. [Living Greyhawk Gazetteer]

5168 SD (-348 CY) Niole Dra founded by Neheli. [Living Greyhawk Gazetteer]

5174 SD (303 O.R./-342 CY) Great Council of Niole Dra — gathering of Suel houses and Oeridian tribes of Keogh, [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]
Kingdom of Keoland officially founded in Sheldomar Valley. [The Adventure Begins, Living Greyhawk Gazeteer]

5202 (-314 CY) Malv I (The Defender) of the House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1 ]

5221 (-295 CY) Lorgyr I (The Seer) of House Neheli made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1 ]

5237 SD (366 O.R./-279 CY) Suloise wizardress Ena Norbo leaves Safe Town aboard a small merchantman with a group of hirelings and followers to found Norbe Harbor, after a plague and storms decimate the settlers, the town is renamed Hard Bay (Hardby); [The Adventure Begins; Living Greyhawk Gazeteer; Dungeon Magazine #109, “Hardby, City of the Scorned”]
(-279 CY) Nyhan II (The Forlorn) of House Neheli made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]
Ena Norbo declares herself Gynarch of Hardby and decrees that only women will rule. [Dungeon Magazine #109, “Hardby, City of the Scorned”]

5244 SD (-272 CY) Mandros I (The Oeridian) of Sedenna made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5274 SD (-242 CY) Keoland expands beyond Good Hills;[Living Greyhawk Gazeteer]
Borders of Keoland first expand to present boundries. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5280 SD (-236 CY) Luschan I and II of House Rhola become kings of Keoland after this date. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5286 SD (-230 CY) Founding of Sterich. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5299 SD Founding of the Kingdom of Aerdy [World of Greyhawk (2nd edition — boxed set)] (-217 CY/428 OR) when states of Rel Astra, Roland, and Ountsy unite under a single banner and Rel Astra made the capital. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer]

5323 SD (-193 CY) Malv II of House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5355 SD (-161 CY) Gran March founded by Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5359 SD (-157 CY) Sanduchar I (The Navigator) of House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5374 SD (-142 CY/503 OR) Court of Eastfair founded by Aerdy, state is set up heavily steeped in dogma of Hextor. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer]

5395 SD (-121 CY) Senestal I of House Neheli made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5406 SD (-110 CY/535 OR) Battle of a Fortnight’s Length — defeat of Nyrond by Aerdy; [World of Greyhawk (2nd edition — boxed set), Living Greyhawk Gazeteer]

5408 SD (-108 CY/537 OR) Founding of Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom when attack on traveling train of king of Aerdy foiled. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer]

5409 (-107 CY) Lanchaster I of House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5418 SD (-98 CY) Lanchaster II (The Wise) of House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5420 SD (-96 CY) Leaders of Yeomanry meet with representatives of expanding Keoland to discuss Yeomanry’s annexation into Keoland; [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer] (-96 CY) Yeomanry brought into Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5444 SD (-72 CY) Senestal II of House Neheli made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5453 SD (-63 CY) Lanchaster III of House Rhola made King of Keoland; [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

5469 SD (-47CY/598 OR) Onnwal taken by Aerdi Kingdom after long and bloody conflict that ends with establishment of Irongate. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer]

5497 (-19 CY) Luschan III of House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1]

Looks like most of the negative dates were from those two sources (though it always felt like more to me). However, my own timeline (though I try to be complete) might have missed some dates or I might have dismissed some dates that I found wrong. I try to keep it accurate and complete, however. I usually list the date given and then translate it into SD (since it's the oldest calendar).

From the Ashes used the no 0 year rule for its timeline if I remember correctly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 max_writer Mar 03, 2004 13:29:31	Hi, I'm brand new to the forums though I've been running Greyhawk since I started playing D&D in 1979. I have a quick question. I dropped a letter at Paizo publishing's Sage Advice but I'm here to see if anyone has any ideas or can even direct me to a thread where this has been discussed. I've used what I thought was the correct answer to this for years but I'm not so sure I'm correct. In the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer pg. 13, it states at the bottom of the left column that there is no year 0 in the Common Year. Thus there are only nine years between 5 CY and -5 CY. However, negative common years given in that supplement and others seem to count a year zero. What is correct? Should it look like this: 5511 SD = -5 CY 5512 SD = -4 CY 5513 SD = -3 CY 5514 SD = -2 CY 5515 SD = -1 CY 5516 SD = 1 CY 5517 SD = 2 CY 5518 SD = 3 CY 5519 SD = 4 CY 5520 SD = 5 CY Or should it be: 5510 SD = -5 CY 5511 SD = -4 CY 5512 SD = -3 CY 5513 SD = -2 CY 5514 SD = -1 CY 5515 SD = 0 CY 5516 SD = 1 CY 5517 SD = 2 CY 5518 SD = 3 CY 5519 SD = 4 CY 5520 SD = 5 CY Thanks, Andy
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2004 14:28:42	There is no CY 0, That is also mentioned in many other official works and in TAB to be sure. Any instances where this seems to be neglected is most likely the authors failure to accomadate for this fact. I used to know the specifics as to this reaosning and they did make perfect sense once you dwelled on it abit, but it just doesn't seem all that important to remember why. Perhaps when I find some time I'll dig through and reveal this to myself once again, although I'm sure some one else will be able to tell us before then. I remember it was something like.... CY 1: the crowning, thus was born CY Moving backwards in time would place CY -1, as a CY 0 wouldn't be a year, it would be nothing, or something similiar to that... For more "proof" of this there is a timeline online that also is accompanied by thye forumla for converting all other calender dates to CY and vice-versa. It is known as Steve Wilsons Grey Chronodex and can be found at the link below. http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/tamerlain/Greyhawk/GreyChrondex41.html
#3 Greyson Mar 03, 2004 14:46:57	Hey, Andy. There is no zero Common Year. So, the more accurate timeline is the former according to your original post. And Abysslin is right - there is no zero year because the Common Year calendar started with 1, just like the Roman calendar of Exigus. When the Overking heralded his new age, he began it with year one, not year zero. Did we help answer your question?
#4 max_writer Mar 03, 2004 15:08:27	Yes, you both helped very much. Thanks. That means I've been doing it right all along and other references to CY in various books and articles are off by a year. Thanks again. Andy
#5 grodog Mar 03, 2004 21:55:13	Andy--- Out of curiosity, what sources did you notice counting year 0/the wrong years?
#6 max_writer Mar 04, 2004 7:24:00	If I remember correctly (I'm at work and all the notes on my timeline are at home), all of them since From the Ashes. The use of the negative common year became more common after Adventure Begins and on through 3.0. It was never used too extensively that I could find and was mainly prominent in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and Living Greyhawk Journal #1. For instance, the entry in Living Greyhawk Gazetteer lists the Great Kingdom as having been formed in -216 CY but other sources (including the original boxed set) list it as 5299 SD (-217 CY according to my calculations). Here is a rough list from what I have at work. These negative years use the "no year zero rule" (unless my calculations are incorrect): 5148 SD (-368 CY) City of Gradsul founded by nobles of House Rhola. [Living Greyhawk Gazetteer] 5168 SD (-348 CY) Niole Dra founded by Neheli. [Living Greyhawk Gazetteer] 5174 SD (303 O.R./-342 CY) Great Council of Niole Dra — gathering of Suel houses and Oeridian tribes of Keogh, [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] Kingdom of Keoland officially founded in Sheldomar Valley. [The Adventure Begins, Living Greyhawk Gazeteer] 5202 (-314 CY) Malv I (The Defender) of the House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1 ] 5221 (-295 CY) Lorgyr I (The Seer) of House Neheli made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1 ] 5237 SD (366 O.R./-279 CY) Suloise wizardress Ena Norbo leaves Safe Town aboard a small merchantman with a group of hirelings and followers to found Norbe Harbor, after a plague and storms decimate the settlers, the town is renamed Hard Bay (Hardby); [The Adventure Begins; Living Greyhawk Gazeteer; Dungeon Magazine #109, “Hardby, City of the Scorned”] (-279 CY) Nyhan II (The Forlorn) of House Neheli made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] Ena Norbo declares herself Gynarch of Hardby and decrees that only women will rule. [Dungeon Magazine #109, “Hardby, City of the Scorned”] 5244 SD (-272 CY) Mandros I (The Oeridian) of Sedenna made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5274 SD (-242 CY) Keoland expands beyond Good Hills;[Living Greyhawk Gazeteer] Borders of Keoland first expand to present boundries. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5280 SD (-236 CY) Luschan I and II of House Rhola become kings of Keoland after this date. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5286 SD (-230 CY) Founding of Sterich. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5299 SD Founding of the Kingdom of Aerdy [World of Greyhawk (2nd edition — boxed set)] (-217 CY/428 OR) when states of Rel Astra, Roland, and Ountsy unite under a single banner and Rel Astra made the capital. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer] 5323 SD (-193 CY) Malv II of House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5355 SD (-161 CY) Gran March founded by Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5359 SD (-157 CY) Sanduchar I (The Navigator) of House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5374 SD (-142 CY/503 OR) Court of Eastfair founded by Aerdy, state is set up heavily steeped in dogma of Hextor. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer] 5395 SD (-121 CY) Senestal I of House Neheli made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5406 SD (-110 CY/535 OR) Battle of a Fortnight’s Length — defeat of Nyrond by Aerdy; [World of Greyhawk (2nd edition — boxed set), Living Greyhawk Gazeteer] 5408 SD (-108 CY/537 OR) Founding of Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom when attack on traveling train of king of Aerdy foiled. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer] 5409 (-107 CY) Lanchaster I of House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5418 SD (-98 CY) Lanchaster II (The Wise) of House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5420 SD (-96 CY) Leaders of Yeomanry meet with representatives of expanding Keoland to discuss Yeomanry’s annexation into Keoland; [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer] (-96 CY) Yeomanry brought into Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5444 SD (-72 CY) Senestal II of House Neheli made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5453 SD (-63 CY) Lanchaster III of House Rhola made King of Keoland; [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] 5469 SD (-47CY/598 OR) Onnwal taken by Aerdi Kingdom after long and bloody conflict that ends with establishment of Irongate. [Living Greyhawk Gazeteer] 5497 (-19 CY) Luschan III of House Rhola made King of Keoland. [Living Greyhawk Journal 1] Looks like most of the negative dates were from those two sources (though it always felt like more to me). However, my own timeline (though I try to be complete) might have missed some dates or I might have dismissed some dates that I found wrong. I try to keep it accurate and complete, however. I usually list the date given and then translate it into SD (since it's the oldest calendar). From the Ashes used the no 0 year rule for its timeline if I remember correctly.