http://www.crimsonsun.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=199
Thanks to Otakkun for his help.
Call it weaker and streamlined version:
-Take a XPsiHB 1/2giant
-Change stats to Str +6, Con +2, Dex -2, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2
-replace all psionics with free Toughness feat
You made 1/2giant more powerfull (better strenght and mentals).
But you still say that it's +1ECL (like athas.org version).
Why? Extra HD won't compensate all other bonuses.
The only problem I detect in athas.org HG is that there isn´t any Large Creature in the other original manuals (MM I & II, Savage Species, Races of Faerum, etc.) starting with less than 4d8 HD.
Besides that fact, athas.org has a good excuse too: making it 2 HD enables player characters to pick HG race by 3rd level.
In the other hand, the HG presented in the revised psionics HB, doesn´t suit DS. That was a poor and generic conversion wich the purpose was to make the HG suitable for any campaing setting.
The athas.org version retains alot of the flavor of the original half-giants and that is what I am looking for in the DS 3.5 rules, the flavor of Dark Sun more than anything else.
Alemander
Originally posted by Kelsen
Regarding the HG, I like athas.org version a lot. Without breaking the rules they have made an effort to keep as much flavor from 2e as possible.
The only problem I detect in athas.org HG is that there isn´t any Large Creature in the other original manuals (MM I & II, Savage Species, Races of Faerum, etc.) starting with less than 4d8 HD.
Besides that fact, athas.org has a good excuse too: making it 2 HD enables player characters to pick HG race by 3rd level.
While there may not be any Large creatures in the manuals starting with less than 4 HD, the minimum HD for a Large creature is 2HD (see MMs), so that's what we went with: trying to keep the ECL as low as possible while keeping the DS flavor.
Originally posted by Kelsen
Regarding the HG, I like athas.org version a lot. Without breaking the rules they have made an effort to keep as much flavor from 2e as possible.
The only problem with the Athas.org HG is it will break when Xpanded PsiHb comes out, it will not be good with any psionic class at all, as opposed it to be somewhat useful with psionics in 2e.
If that is fine with you, great, all I was trying to do is make a version that can take some of the psionic classes like I specified at the bottom of the writeup.
As far as not upping its LA, if WotC can get away with it on the Half Ogre without errating it, then we can get away with it on the HG, I still think as is it's an LA +1 creature.
I could be wrong though, only playtesting will be able to prove that one way or another.
I also don't think that basing any alternative on the one presented in the XPsiHB is the way to go either, HGs should be large, with reach and all, not wanna be large.
NytCrawlr – I’m not sure why you have Extra Hit Points when you get that anyway from a Constitution bonus. It would make more sense to me to up that Con bonus to +6, then have something to balance that out. Also, +10 is a bit much for a Strength bonus, IMO. Mental Handicap is interesting, although wouldn’t a negative to Wisdom do the same insomuch as it would affect one’s Will save?
Don’t get me wrong, there’s some good flavor there. I’m just curious why you approached things the way you did.
I saw the new Psi HB’s version recently, and there is stuff I like and stuff I don’t about it. The loss of the axis alignment and the not-so-giant size are a shame. However, I do like the “fire acclimated” ability as well as the Stomp psi-like ability.
I’m hoping that the 3.5 conversion Dragon and Dungeon will have will have an Athas-specific half-giant. I’m not holding my breath, though.
I have an old half-giant character that I want to update to 3e at some point, so I’ve been trying to figure out which version of the half-giant would work the best. As it stands now, I’m pretty happy with the Athas.org version. I may add in the fire acclimated and Stomp psi-like abilities and up the LA to accommodate.
The only thing I doubt I can convert are his psionic wild talents – Strength of the Land, Lend Health, and Share Strength. I’d probably have to give him psion or psychic warrior levels to accommodate, and then he’d have a bunch of new powers. *sigh*
No conversion is perfect! ;)
I think you missed something...
Though I will answer this, the reason for the extra hit points is simple, I was trying to mimic the double hit die thing from 2e without going overboard, I based that ability off the feat improved toughness from Complete Warrior.
Giving it a +6 Con unbalances the stats even more than they are now and gives bonus to fort save and all that, I just wanted to keep Con at +4 and give him more hit points than normal, so hence the reason for that ability.
Note, I think the athas.org version is fine, until you try to play a psionic class from the new XPsiHb with the current version, then it breaks and is pretty much a waste to even try since it gets a -4 to every stat dealing with a psionic class.
It could easily outclass a Mul for example.
There was always a real danger of abuse of half-giants when adidng in psionics or magic to their repertoire (and they were overpowered anyway in 2nd Ed with doubled hit point dice).
A half-giant psionic monk for example, without the penalties to psionic stats, would be a horror! *shivers*
Reach + superb combat stats + psionic combat buffs, eeeeeek!
Though I did have a half-giant rogue once (as DM) in my adventures backstabbing for stupid amounts of damage...no one's perfect!
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
Half-Giants never were "Psionic giants" anyway ;)
Right, hence the -4 to Int staying, this kills them being able to be good Psions, but with no penalty to Wis and a small one to Cha they can be good psychic warriors and decent wilders. ;)
I'm basically trying to keep the whole "anyone can have psionics" theme from 2e.
While other humanoids might be strong in one area of psionics and weak in another, HGs are weak in all three! I don't think that is acceptable at all.
Maybe I need to take them to 2HD and +2 LA instead of 3HD and +1 LA though.
Hmmm.
Is there a Feat they could take that would help perhaps?
I havent seen the revised Psionics stuff so can't rely comment on that.
I NEVER bought the "constitution affects psionic power" from 2nd Ed rule, but are psychic warriros, based on the "offical" Athas.org halfgiant that bad?
I've got the 3rd Ed psionics handbook but have never used it so far (running my own campaign setting and no psionics involved so far), so have very little practical use of the rule set :/
(developed my own psionic sytsem for 2nd ed 'cause the official ones were such a pest).
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
NytCralwr,
Is there a Feat they could take that would help perhaps?
I havent seen the revised Psionics stuff so can't rely comment on that.
XPsiHb which is 3.5 psionics will be changing quite a bit of things and streamlining psionics. It comes out in April so you might want to give it a gander.
Anyways, the psionic classes in that book all have one ability score that the class is based off of instead of like it was in PsiHb 3.0 with each discipline having a different ability score based on it.
The changes are:
Wilder - Cha
Psion - Int
Psychic Warrior - Wis
AH, I see what you mean then (I foudn the varying stat based stuff for 3rd Ed psionics dumb, for psions that is)
Point: isn't the -4 charisma penalty for half giants in the Athas.org official verison just a bit much? Wouldn't -2 be more balanced?
Hm, Wilders sound good for half-giants.
It's kind of like half-orcs, it's rubbish they take such unbalanced scores for so little gains.
Look at the TONS of benefits the other races get, half-orcs get diddly squat by comparison.
Similarly hobgoblins are now a +1 ECL creature, why?!
*points to the BALANCED stats elves dwarves etc get AND the tons of goodies as well*
I also find it weird that you would make this variant of the HG more powerful (Better strenght, better low stats, bonus hit point, save penalty only equivalent to the former wis penalty) and take away his racial hit dice, making it even more powerful. Kindof weird IMO.
Anyways, like someone pointed out, large creatures should have racial hit die. I would point out though that the Half-Ogre of Savage Species have none, which creates a precedent for large races with less than 4 HD, in fact with none. Also, Large Skeletons have only 2, though of course, they are quite skinny fellows... ;)
My own variant resembles the version of Athas.org, and now has 2HD to make it available at level 3. Differences are -6Int -2Wis instead of -4 -4, and Weak-willed trait giving a -2 to all saves against mind-affecting effects, which I find interesting that someone though of using too here.
NytCrawlr - For the HG being somewhat useful with psionic in 2e, it is aguable.
Originally posted by kdh
Nytcrawlr, if you want the HG to have a single "good" mental stat, surely it ought not to be CHA. After all, in 3e CHA is a measure of how a character is able to enforce his/her willpower upon the world. And one might (succesfully in my opinion) argue that a HG's tendency to follow a role-model shows a severe lack of force of personality. I am far better able to envision a HG with high INT or WIS.
Hence why it has no Wis penalty and has a -2 Cha penalty.
Also, not sure why Shei thinks it doesn't have racial hit dice, it does, 3 to be exact as per the Level Adjustment area.
Are people just not reading my writeup or what?
Are people just not reading my writeup or what?
Of course we're not reading it, what kind of people do you think we are? ;)
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Of course we're not reading it, what kind of people do you think we are? ;)
Heh, I know it was silly of me to ask that, but damn, it sure feels like it.
Basically it comes down to this, if you don't want to have HGs access to any psionic classes at all, then use athas.org's, it's a great version.
If you want them to be decent at some psionic classes then you are going to have to adjust it some since it get's nailed with a -4 to every attribute that matters for the new psionic rules coming out.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I think the confusion stems from the fact that its not a full write-up. Take a few minutes and flesh it out with all the rules instead of a simple overlay. Make make things a bit clearer as to what has been discarded and what still remains to the race (Shei I think misinterpreted that this is a complete look at the mechanics).
No real reason to do that though since it's the same flavor as the athas.org one, but I guess I could just copy and paste that if it helps.
Guess I assumed too much in thinking people could get the general idea of what I was trying to do, heh.
Flavor stays the same, just the stat block changes.
Oh well, got a few changes I need to make to it anyways.
No real reason to do that though since it's the same flavor as the athas.org one, but I guess I could just copy and paste that if it helps.
Ahem. Copyright issue *cough*
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Ahem. Copyright issue *cough*
Ya think?
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Basically it comes down to this, if you don't want to have HGs access to any psionic classes at all, then use athas.org's, it's a great version.
If you want them to be decent at some psionic classes then you are going to have to adjust it some since it get's nailed with a -4 to every attribute that matters for the new psionic rules coming out.
I don't think this is as counter-productive as you might think. It would be a challenge, but a half-giant psion could be done.
Let's say you have the -4, and (for the sake of debate) you roll an 18 for Int. Apply the -4, and you get 14 at 1st level. Roughly, this will allow you to manifest up to 4th level powers, which should take you somewhere around 8th level.
By that point, you can up an ability score twice, which then bumps you up to 6th level powers, and therefore you can go up to 12th level (roughly), where you can up an ability score by one. Now you have a 17 Int., which gives you up to 7th level powers (and 14th level).
You're right, it would be difficult, but it is not impossible to have a decent half-giant psion. There's no rule saying you have to take all your levels in psion either.
Of course, the other option would be to stick with 3.0 psionics and use MAD... ;)
*runs away*
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
You're right, it would be difficult, but it is not impossible to have a decent half-giant psion. There's no rule saying you have to take all your levels in psion either.
Ok, so maybe using the word impossible was bad on my part, you're right.
However, it's going to be very difficult for a HG to be in any psionic class once the new rules comes out.
If people are willing to deal with that, then great, if not, they have an alternative.
Of course, the other option would be to stick with 3.0 psionics and use MAD... ;)
*runs away*
I don't like 3.0 psionics all that much, but they are better than 2e psionics, and I do like MAD, so I guess I am running with you.
/me runs after Dragonhelm and yells for him to wait up
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I don't like 3.0 psionics all that much, but they are better than 2e psionics, and I do like MAD, so I guess I am running with you.
/me runs after Dragonhelm and yells for him to wait up
I hate to say it, but I think we two are the only ones who like MAD.
Then again, I sometimes wonder if I'm the only fan of 2e psionics left.
I'm sure the new psionics books is going to be spiffy, and I'm looking forward to it. Doesn't mean I can't be nostalgic, though.
However, I don't know why it had to be reworked. Looked fine. And as for the low psionic stat thing, I never saw HG to be particuliarly (if at all) good with psionics, so there is no problem. And anyways, I HG wit h-4 in Int or Cha can still place a 16+ stat in it if he really wants to play a psion, and get a bonus still.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Oh. didn't see that the racial hit dies were still there. Its ok then. :embarrass
However, I don't know why it had to be reworked. Looked fine. And as for the low psionic stat thing, I never saw HG to be particuliarly (if at all) good with psionics, so there is no problem. And anyways, I HG wit h-4 in Int or Cha can still place a 16+ stat in it if he really wants to play a psion, and get a bonus still.
True, I'm just trying to make it a little easier on the player who wants to play one, and I don't see a problem with them being good PWs or Wilders.
Also I really like the hit points thing, hehe.
The LA will probably be upped and the 3 HD dropped before it's all said and done though.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I hate to say it, but I think we two are the only ones who like MAD.
Then again, I sometimes wonder if I'm the only fan of 2e psionics left.
Nah, there are plenty more out there, trust me.
Check out the psionic boards sometime.
The only issue I had with 2e psionics was that it was too different from magic and was unbalanced, but damn such nostalgia comes back as I imagine the vegetarian Illithid I played that was the "Scotty" of the group.
Damn he was a great psychoporter and clairsentience freak, hehe.
The DM had a campaign in SJ, and with the amount of PSPs I had, I could teleport the whole group to where we needed to go. The difference was at the lower levels I was pretty much done and let the fighters and such go do their fighting thing. Had a telepath that would sit back in the rear with me and try to take over people why I just stayed defensive since I was usually out of PSPs on arrival.
Mid to low-high levels I had enough PSPs to actually help in the fight though.
I teleported a hydra from the planetoid we were on into space in one instance, the DM later ruled it that it teleported a few hundred feet up instead and fell and died rounds later, lol.
We ended up tweaking some of the 2e psionics after that character, I'll never look at psychoportation the same though, it's just too wimpy now, hehe.
Oh well, the glory days of 2e... :D
Now, the low point for me and 2e psionics is when I had a player roll on the wild talent chart, and he rolled extremely well. Got one of the sciences, which gave him a bunch of prerequisites and the PSPs to use them however many times. By the time this was all done, he had more PSPs than a starting psionicist. That was the most broken moment of 2e psionics that I ever dealt with.
Ah, well. I shouldn't derail this thread any further. NytCrawler, if you want to talk this over more, either send me a PM or an e-mail. Good talking to you!
Now back to half-giants...
http://www.crimsonsun.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=199
Now, the low point for me and 2e psionics is when I had a player roll on the wild talent chart, and he rolled extremely well. Got one of the sciences, which gave him a bunch of prerequisites and the PSPs to use them however many times. By the time this was all done, he had more PSPs than a starting psionicist. That was the most broken moment of 2e psionics that I ever dealt with.
Ah, the fond memories of multiple "roll three times" results. I think one player had a half-giant wild talent with a total of 34 sciences and devotions.
Originally posted by superpriest
Nyt, the Con bonus gives them extra hp. No need for an extra ability.
I disagree. Was looking for more of something similar to the double die thing they got in 2e, hence the extra 1 HP per level.
What's cool is that in the Wound Point/Vitality Point system it becomes an extra wound point per level, pretty much hits what I was shooting for.
I disagree. Was looking for more of something similar to the double die thing they got in 2e, hence the extra 1 HP per level.
Giving them an extra 2 points of Con amounts to almost exactly the same thing, however. The reason they don't get the double hit points thing is that there are so many 3E races that don't that it doens't make sense. Big = more Con.
You could give them double hit points as a weird flavor ability. It would be unusual but playable. (There's no game reason it couldn't happen.)
What's cool is that in the Wound Point/Vitality Point system it becomes an extra wound point per level, pretty much hits what I was shooting for.
OK. I don't use the system, so I'd never see the difference.
Originally posted by superpriest
Giving them an extra 2 points of Con amounts to almost exactly the same thing, however. The reason they don't get the double hit points thing is that there are so many 3E races that don't that it doens't make sense. Big = more Con.
You could give them double hit points as a weird flavor ability. It would be unusual but playable. (There's no game reason it couldn't happen.)
Actually, I like this. a single hit point extra isn't much, and is just a wierd little flavor bonus they get. Plus, as Nyt said, when it comes to Wound Points/Vitality points, when you have something providing a straight hp bonus, that becomes wound points. Con bonus only applies to vitality (and +2 con would only increase the wound points by 2 period). Chill dude, it's a useable, workable ability, doesn't break anything, and is kinda nice.
Originally posted by superpriest
Giving them an extra 2 points of Con amounts to almost exactly the same thing, however.
I know it does, but I don't want them to have a +6 to Con since that would also increase other things, like Fort Saves, and that is not what I am shooting for.
I am shooting for something that has a bit more hit points than your average large humanoid, comparitively to those with only a +4 Con anyways.
Or more wound points if you use the VP/WP system.
You could give them double hit points as a weird flavor ability. It would be unusual but playable. (There's no game reason it couldn't happen).
Except that is too much and would probably up the LA way more than I wanted. Might as well give them a free toughness feat every level at that point, it's too much IMO.