~B4Real
Originally posted by B4Real
Are there any half-orcs at all in Ansalon ? Because I did not see them on the race list in the DLCS.
The half-orc in the DLCS is supposed to be a half-ogre.
There are no orcs in Ansalon, much less half-orcs (despite their ability to appear now and then).
~B4Real
~B4Real
~B4Real
Page 212, column 1, paragraph 1, sentance 2
Unless you could Lord Soth's song as paragraphs... which I'm not.
But yeah no driders, drow, halflings, lycanthropes, mind flayers, orcs, half orcs, or titans.
Any mention of them in Dragonlance is either the insane ranting of a Kender or been strictly ruled non-cannon. And yes, a 'drow' is mentioned in the chronicles trilogy but this has been ruled a slang term for 'dark elf' not a black skinned white haired femdom elf... but rather an outcast elf from one of the elven nations, like Dalamar.
It is entirely up to you the DM if you want to do something like the above. In my example, when I did it in my campaign, the ORcs were followers of Grummush One Eye. Despite being evil, Takhisis is not the kind of goddess that will share power, and as such, will mark the Orcs to either be converted or destroyed if they don't convert.
Maybe one day the orcs will have a homeland of their own, like the goblins or the draconians. Of course, knowing orcs, it'll probably just end up being another banana republic.
Correlanthias
1) Takhisis does not seem the type that will share power with anyone. She would view Lolth as a rival and would do all in her power to destroy Lolth's children, ie Spiders and the Drow.
2) Based on the abillity of Krynn wizards of High Sorcery to traverse the planes, it seems reasonable that they were well aware of realms like THE FORGOTTEN REALMS and GREYHAWK. Add to it Lord Soth's vacation trip to RAVEN LOFT and it is not so far fetched.
3) I believe that the Drow that Raistlin went up against were indeed from the Drizidwhatever were Drow taking the mysterious test that they have to take in service to Lolth, the one where failure causes them to become driders. I believe during this test, either thru just the fluctuations of magic and power; or perhaps by the doing of Fistandantilus himself, that it caused a rift and allowed the two of them to engage in battle.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with drow, I've faced them, I've fought along side them... in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk.
I just think that they shouldn't be on Krynn. Why? Certain things NEED to be different otherwise the setting would all become too generic. Quite honestly Drow don't really fit in Dragonlance anyway. The balance of the gods is very specific in Dragonlance, unlike the Realms where I think even the most hardcore fan would have a tough time naming them all. Lolth doesn't exist on Krynn.
Spelljamming is all well and good, and a great excuse if you want to incorporate material from other settings. A lot of us don't, not to say someone can't, but in my games I keep the worlds separate.
Age old wisdom say:
Too many cooks spoil the pot.
My wisdom say:
Too many sources ruin the game.
If your going to play Greyhawk, but all means play Greyhawk.
If you want to play Forgotten Realms by all means play Forgotten Realms.
If your playing Dragonlance, then lets keep it Dragonlance.
Lets keep Kender and Draconians in Krynn,
Lets keep Drow and Orcs in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms.
Now I understand the desire of players who have a DM that runs a game that's not their favorite setting to have something from another setting. Believe me I understand, I'm the only one in my group that DMs Dragonlance, while another runs Forgotten Realms, and another has a homebrew setting. (yes we have a lot of games going... and that's not counting the White Wolf games we have going... this is what happens when a game group made up of 6 guys who all like to run games). I'd love to play a Kapak Draconian, or a Kender, or a Knight of Solamnia, but I can't, since no one else runs Dragonlance (though I got at least two of the guys reading the novels so maybe...). Oh well, I'll play something else. I'll play a Cleric of Tyr, or something else that fits in the setting.
But that's just how my group runs our games. I'm not trying to tell you how to run yours. Just telling you my philosophy.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
I have posted my thoughts on the DRow in DragonLance. But to make a long story short...
1) Takhisis does not seem the type that will share power with anyone. She would view Lolth as a rival and would do all in her power to destroy Lolth's children, ie Spiders and the Drow.
True enough...let's move on...
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
2) Based on the abillity of Krynn wizards of High Sorcery to traverse the planes, it seems reasonable that they were well aware of realms like THE FORGOTTEN REALMS and GREYHAWK. Add to it Lord Soth's vacation trip to RAVEN LOFT and it is not so far fetched.
But thankfully we have a new official cosmology that does not include these places. Let's move on...
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
3) I believe that the Drow that Raistlin went up against were indeed from the Drizidwhatever were Drow taking the mysterious test that they have to take in service to Lolth, the one where failure causes them to become driders. I believe during this test, either thru just the fluctuations of magic and power; or perhaps by the doing of Fistandantilus himself, that it caused a rift and allowed the two of them to engage in battle.
Okay...You may believe it to your hearts content...but that doesnt make it true. Read The Soulforge. Accept it...Raistlin never fought any black skinned evil elf. And besides, do you not think that if a situation arose where such a powerful fluctuation in the magic was caused that Par Salian would not stop the test...do'nt you think Caramon would have asked questions? Par Salian and Caramon were watching the test throughout the whole time Raistlin took it. As a matter of fact it was designed the way it was by the conclave themselves. Once again...there were now black skinned white haired goth elves (drow) in Raistlin's test.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
Drow taking the mysterious test that they have to take in service to Lolth, the one where failure causes them to become driders.
It's not that mysterious. You just have to kill a family member Lolth has sent to kill you.
And do you think Raistlin would've just gone with a bunch of black skinned, white haired elves? Wouldn't've he been suspicious?
And, as Serena said, Par Salian would've stopped the Test. And the dark elves were there because that's how the test was designed. There was no accident.
Given all the intervening decades and multiple editions of the D&D game, we've got a pretty clear idea of what elements are and are not present.
The thing to remember is that the Dragonlance Campaign Setting book (the "DLCS") for 3.5 is the be all and end all of what is and what is not present in Dragonlance gaming. Anything stated within its overly large borders supercedes all previous material.
The DLCS states drow (among others) are not appropriate to Krynn.
-This makes any previous references to drow on Krynn moot.
The DLCS, since it follows 3.5 rules, allows every race to multiclass (barring membership in certain prestige classes).
-This makes any previous references to dwarves never being arcane spellcasters, humans being forbidden to multiclass, and so on utterly and completely irrelevant.
The DLCS explicitly maps out Krynn's cosmology. Nowhere does it reference connections to the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Spelljammer, etc.
-This makes any previous references to these places irrelevant.
The DLCS, since it follows 3.5 rules, has no level limit for any race.
-Thus we ignore any level limit stated in previous editions.
Keeping this simple hierarchy of references in mind eliminates all the questions of drow, driders, orcs, half-orcs, other universes, is this god the same as this god in this non-Dragonlance campaign, but 2nd edition Dragonlance said this, and so on.
Okay...You may believe it to your hearts content...but that doesnt make it true. Read The Soulforge. Accept it...Raistlin never fought any black skinned evil elf. And besides, do you not think that if a situation arose where such a powerful fluctuation in the magic was caused that Par Salian would not stop the test...do'nt you think Caramon would have asked questions? Par Salian and Caramon were watching the test throughout the whole time Raistlin took it. As a matter of fact it was designed the way it was by the conclave themselves. Once again...there were now black skinned white haired goth elves (drow) in Raistlin's test.
I appreciate that. Yes, in my view of things, I like to believe my above story.
You are forgetting the role that Fistandantilus played in Raistlins test. Fistandantilus was more powerfull then Par-Salian ever was and as such, Fistand could easily override anything that happened in the test.
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
It's not that mysterious. You just have to kill a family member Lolth has sent to kill you.
And do you think Raistlin would've just gone with a bunch of black skinned, white haired elves? Wouldn't've he been suspicious?
And, as Serena said, Par Salian would've stopped the Test. And the dark elves were there because that's how the test was designed. There was no accident.
1) Was not aware of just what the Mysterious Drow test was, never got that into Forgotten Realms, been a long time since I followed Greyhawk.
2) I don't think Raistlin would have expected it. He knew that anything could happen in his Test.
3)Also, as mentioned above, you forget the precence that Fistandantillus played in the test. He NEEDED Raistlin to be so challenged during his Test, that it would give him the opportunity to twist part of Raist's soul from him in exchange for power. It is well reasonable that Fistandantillus arranged the Drow to be there (perhaps by feigning he was the voice of Lolth, for example) to arrange their meeting.
The books do make it clear that Fistandantilus transfered his essence to another plane after his failure to open the Porthol to the Abyss in the DwarfGate Wars. He could easily have found himself very near the Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk dimension, just like Lord Soth once found himself in Ravenloft.
Just remember that Raist's test took place well before "Taki" stole the world and MOVED it. She could quite easily have disconnected it from any other worlds/planes when she did this.
Perhaps Dragonlance/Krynn was the linchpin that held the "multiverse" together and when she moved it No more "multiverse".
Hence why 3.0 & 3.5 have no connected cosmologies, etc.
Just a guess combined with logical conclusions.
1) According to the Manual of the Planes the Plane of Shadow (which does exist in the Krynnish cosmology) connects alternate cosmologies; hence it is entirely possible for drow and other creatures to travel across that plane to Krynn from their own worlds.
2) Creatures from from other worlds who enter Krynn would presumably adopt the worship of Krynnish gods (in periods when gods exist) since "heathen" (offworld) clerics have no power in Krynn. In Wild Elves the drow worship Takhisis's renegade handmaiden Liathuli: in the Age of Mortals, Liathuli might be bidding for a place in the Krynnish pantheon, with the support of the drow. I think that, if orcs existed in Krynn, they would probably worship Sargonnas.
3) According to the Time of the Dragon boxed set, a subspecies of mind flayer, known as yaggol, exist in Krynn's other continent of Taladas.
4) It is objected that using creatures from other settings might spoil the flavour of a particular setting. I think that this should be done sparingly, and they should be represented as something alien and unknown, as is done in Wild Elves. Used in this way, they could actually improve the setting by adding a sense of wonder.
Originally posted by cnposner
Several remarks:-
1) According to the Manual of the Planes the Plane of Shadow (which does exist in the Krynnish cosmology) connects alternate cosmologies; hence it is entirely possible for drow and other creatures to travel across that plane to Krynn from their own worlds.
That doesnt work. As the cosmology for Krynn is completely different. Krynn has a plane of Shadow, but it isnt the plane of shadow detailed in the Manual of the Planes. How many times does it need to be said...Dragonlance does not use the planar cosmology that is in the Manual of the Planes. It has its own...with 3 outer planes...4 inner, and three transitives. As per the official setting it does not use the Great Wheel cosmology at all....hence the only things traveling to Krynn are things that exist in Dragonlance....which doesnt include drow or orcs.
That's just the official stance though....If it serves one's game to use the D&D cosmology rather than the DLCS one, go for it...bring in drow, orcs, lycanthropes......heck...why not Mystra?
;)
I understand where you're coming from about doing this sparingly, but don't people use the DL setting for what it is? A world that isnt like the others?
That doesnt work. As the cosmology for Krynn is completely different. Krynn has a plane of Shadow, but it isnt the plane of shadow detailed in the Manual of the Planes. How many times does it need to be said...Dragonlance does not use the planar cosmology that is in the Manual of the Planes. It has its own...with 3 outer planes...4 inner, and three transitives. As per the official setting it does not use the Great Wheel cosmology at all....
It is true that Dragonlance does not use the D&D, Great Wheel, cosmology detailed in the Manual of the Planes. However that tome also mentions alternate cosmologies, and the diagram on p.62 shows how these cosmologies are connected to the D&D cosmology via the Plane of Shadow. Whether that Plane of Shadow is the same as the one mentioned in the DLCS is of course entirely a matter for the DM.
....If it serves one's game to use the D&D cosmology rather than the DLCS one, go for it...bring in drow, orcs, lycanthropes......heck...why not Mystra?
As I have said, Mystra and other heathen gods are not worshipped in Krynn because their clerics have no powers, and wizards must worship the three moon gods rather than Mystra.
I understand where you're coming from about doing this sparingly, but don't people use the DL setting for what it is? A world that isnt like the others?
This, again, is entirely a matter for the DM. If she wants her version of Krynn to be entirely unlike other worlds, and to include no offworld creatures, that is up to her.
Someone mentioned Mindflayers weren't on Krynn. That is mostly true but there is one kind. The Yaggol. It is either in Taladas or the Otherworlds set. they are extremely weak compared to other mindflayers since Krynn is anti-psionic.
As I have mentioned earlier, the yaggol variety of mind flayer is mentioned by the Time of the Dragon boxed set as living in Taladas.
Originally posted by cnposner
It is true that Dragonlance does not use the D&D, Great Wheel, cosmology detailed in the Manual of the Planes However that tome also mentions alternate cosmologies, and the diagram on p.62 shows how these cosmologies are connected to the D&D cosmology via the Plane of Shadow. Whether that Plane of Shadow is the same as the one mentioned in the DLCS is of course entirely a matter for the DM.
Actually...as it has been stated...this plane of shadow is not the same plane of shadow that you find in the great wheel as described in the MoP and the DMG. All campaign worlds have been disconnected as of 3E D&D's release.
But as I said before...It is up to the DM what and what not they choose to include into their game....I am just answering the points from the official standpoint.
Because...In my own game I have been trying to come up with a way to include the orcs somehow...in my game they are simply an offshoot of the goblinoid race. I simply have the orcs as moutain dwelling hobgoblins...as their stats and CR is so darn similar.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I simply have the orcs as moutain dwelling hobgoblins...as their stats and CR is so darn similar.
Yes, they're both 1 HD evil humanoids. Of course, so is a 1st level evil human or a 1st level evil dwarf. I'm not sure why orcs and hobgoblins get lumped in together as being so similar when they aren't.
Cheers,
Cam
Actually...as it has been stated...this plane of shadow is not the same plane of shadow that you find in the great wheel as described in the MoP and the DMG. All campaign worlds have been disconnected as of 3E D&D's release.
But as I said before...It is up to the DM what and what not they choose to include into their game....I am just answering the points from the official standpoint.
I realize that there are many different interpretations of the rules on this matter. But I am sure everyone will agree that the final decision lies with the DM. We should therefore agree to disagree.
What we can obviously agree on is that the way we play our respective games pleases us...and with that in mind...More power to the both of us....
rock on...
If you are Dungeon Master and you think introducing Orcs, Drow, Lycantharopes, bahumut and Tiamat, or whatever into your campaign will be a good and interesting campaign, then by all means do so and let us know how it went.
No..I dont think agreeing to disagree is how Im going out on this one...simply because that would imply that I dont know what Im talking about. There may be many many interpretations on this, but it is simply fact that the campaign worlds are not officially connected.
Very well, since you insist on arguing, here is chapter and verse, from the Manual of the Planes, page 43. "These alternate Material Planes have their own unique cosmologies, landscapes and inhabitants, which may be similar to or wildly different from the original Material Plane. ......An alternate Material Plane has its own transitive planes. It might share demiplanes and the Plane of Shadow with other Material Planes, however."
Hence the fact that Krynn has its own cosmology does not imply that it is cut off from all other worlds. If you continue to claim that the campaign worlds are not officially connected, I would like to know exactly what authority there is for this. In any case, there are many examples in D&D literature of interaction between game worlds: Dragon magazine used to run a feature called "The Wizards Three," dealing with meetings between Dalamar of Krynn, Elminster of Toril, and Mordenkainen of Greyhawk.
If you are Dungeon Master and you think introducing Orcs, Drow, Lycantharopes, bahumut and Tiamat, or whatever into your campaign will be a good and interesting campaign, then by all means do so and let us know how it went.
Surely Bahamut and Tiamat are simply different aspects of Paladine and Takhisis respectively.
lets not get into that again.
So in a sense it is true to say that Krynn is its own unique cosmology, much as Faerun has its own tree-like planar model. However, it is also true that connections and portals from Krynn and the bubble of planes which enclose it exist to other worlds in the vast reaches of the Ethereal beyond the Dome of Creation and the Abyss.
When Krynn was moved, the Dome of Creation, the Abyss and other planes that comprise this bubble didn't come with it. That shell was left without a world, and the Gods still resided there up until the point at which Raistlin was able to forge a pathway in the River of Time to connect the past and present. Once they knew where Krynn was again, they traveled there, rebuilt the planar structure around it, and order was restored.
Krynn was protected from the Ethereal Sea (and its souls were prevented from leaving) because of Takhisis' so-called Necromantic Barrier. This barrier no longer exists, and may have been maintained by the presence of Takhisis' moon.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by cnposner
If you continue to claim that the campaign worlds are not officially connected, I would like to know exactly what authority there is for this. In any case, there are many examples in D&D literature of interaction between game worlds: Dragon magazine used to run a feature called "The Wizards Three," dealing with meetings between Dalamar of Krynn, Elminster of Toril, and Mordenkainen of Greyhawk.
Well...firstly....the articles you refer to, "The Wizards Three" were well before 3E hit. This discontinuing of the connection of campaign worlds happened with 3E, so "The Wizard's Three" has little bearing on the matter. And I see you cited the Manual of the Planes. Very interesting, as it is written with the generic D&D world in mind...Greyhawk. Just like all the other D&D 3rd Edition Manuals.
But, I choose to just drop the discussion with you altogether.
Originally posted by cnposner
Surely Bahamut and Tiamat are simply different aspects of Paladine and Takhisis respectively.
If you are the Dungeon Master, and if it helps your campaign by making Paladine and Takhisis to be avatars of Bahumut and Tiamat then knock yourself out.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186313