| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1zombiegleemaxMar 04, 2004 16:38:33 | I have some quick questions about Ansalon, that I'm hoping those with greater Dragonlance-fu than myself can answer. Here goes: 1) Is it still canon in 3.5 that draconians' souls are abishai from the Abyss? If this is so, could a holy weapon hurt them? The text doesn't say so, and I'd assume this means the draconian/abishai connection has been dropped as of 3.5. 2) How long do draconians live? Now that we know they're a fully biological race capable of reproduction, it would be kinda nice to know long the buggers live. 3) The text of the DL corerulebook heavily suggests that primal sorcery was once the original form of arcane magic on Ansalon, before the three moon gods intervened and squelched it. Is this true? And if so, does this mean the legendary dwarf Scions are sorcerers, and not wizards of High Sorcery? 4) Level limit of 18th level: Does this still exist on Krynn? The old 1e Dragonlance hardbound made this a staple of the setting, that no Ansalonian PC or NPC (save Raistlin Majere) ever advanced beyond 18th level without being taken to other realms by the gods. I never liked this, personally; it limited the setting way too much, IMHO. --thank you, more questions are on the way NB |
| #2NivedMar 04, 2004 16:53:11 | 1) Honestly don't know. If they still are I'd say that the 70 some odd years living on the material plane has rendered any unholyness about them about inert, the identity of the draconians is wholey from material plane expirience. As to the second generation Draconians in Teyr certainly not. 2) This is covered in the 3.5 Edition Dragonlance DM screen. They have the age charts for Kender, Centaurs, Ogre and the like... check there... 3) Yes. 4) No. There are at least 2 NPCs that I can think of that have been published with Epic Levels. There hasn't been an official explaination but conjecture runs thusly. The gods have been gone... the people stepped up and had to deal with a world without them and got tougher... also with Dragon Overlords and Ogre Titans there are actually things on Krynn one could justify an epic campaign against. Insofar the gods have not been deporting people since they got back. Check various threads on Epic gaming in Dragonlance that float up every now and again. Um, there you go. |
| #3iltharanosMar 04, 2004 18:00:11 | Originally posted by Nero's Boot 1. There has been no mention of the origin of draconian souls in any of the 3.5 material. 2. Comparable to elves, though a much faster maturity rate. 3. Most likely. 4. The level limit of 18 was only applicable for AD&D 1st edition. By AD&D 2nd edition, the upper level limit was 25th level (at least, that's what was listed in the Tales of the Lance boxed set). Fistandantilus was placed at 23rd level in this old 2nd edition boxed set. In 3.5 Dragonlance, there is no level limit, just like with standard 3rd edition. |
| #4cam_banksMar 04, 2004 22:51:19 | A holy weapon will deal its extra 2d6 points of damage to a draconian if the draconian is evil-aligned, since that's how holy weapons work. It would deal this extra damage on any evil-aligned creature, in other words. The abishai connection and the 18th level limit are not officially recognized elements of a Dragonlance campaign, especially not the level limit. That limit only appeared in Dragonlance Adventures for 1st edition, and never appeared again. Cheers, Cam |
| #5zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 10:51:59 | Thanks, all! Here are some more questions: 5) Psionics: I know this one has been beaten like a dead horse being smacked on by an ogre, but would the psionics of non-natives to Krynn function while in the Krynnish cosmology? Say a psion from the Free City of Greyhawk takes a wrong turn through the Plane of Shadow and ends up in Solace. Would his psionics still function? 6) Sorcery during the War of the Lance: Impossible, or just not known of? I realize the Scions were sorcerers, but I'm wondering if other sorcerers were out there prior to the Summer of Chaos. --thanks guys NB |
| #6iltharanosMar 05, 2004 13:13:37 | Originally posted by Nero's Boot 5. In all the 3.5 material, psionics hasn't been addressed either way. It seems as if Sovereign Press has left it up to individual DMs on whether to include psionics in their campaigns. So short answer is psionics functions if you want it to. 6. Sorcery as in spontaneous arcane spellcasting is unknown prior to the Age of Mortals (except for the early parts of the Age of Dreams), with prominent exceptions being those creatures that naturally cast spells as sorcerers (e.g. dragons). |
| #7brimstoneMar 05, 2004 13:35:35 | Originally posted by iltharanos I think you can add a few other races to that list, as well. Irda Scions Huldrefolk Draconians All Fey creatures (Faeries, Nymphs, Dryads, etc.) Any Greygem touched magical creatures Now...just because they can tap into Sorcery doesn't mean they do. It just means they have the innate capability to tap into Krynn's natural resources of magical energies and don't need the Chaos energy to enhance it (like Humans and elves do). I am sure they could still be Wizards if they wanted to be. |
| #8iltharanosMar 05, 2004 13:39:39 | I'm not so sure about the Irda part, considering their favored class is Wizard. |
| #9zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 13:42:33 | Originally posted by Nero's Boot Well.....Unless the game is played with the multiverse intact this wouldnt happen as Dragonlance has its own cosmology sperate from that of other campaign worlds....And I know...Im just bein nitpicky...lol...I just love pointing that out! Its my favorite new feature of Dragonalance! |
| #10zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 13:46:01 | Originally posted by Brimstone Nope, favored class is wizard. Huldrefolk Ah, I had forgotten about the huldrefolk. Yes indeed, they would be sorcerers... Draconians Of course! They are dragons, after all. Any Greygem touched magical creatures In this case, this would mean every race on Krynn that is not an ogre, irda, human, or elf. --something seems wrong with that last notion NB |
| #11zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 13:47:55 | Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst The Plane of Shadow connects all d20 fantasy cosmologies (at least those that have a Plane of Shadow), so yes, I am right. A psion from Oerth could theoretically travel to Krynn. --sorry NB |
| #12zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 13:57:35 | More questions to dazzle and amaze! 7) Time travel: Still a feature of post-War of Souls Krynn? Or would the stealing of Krynn negate time travel past the theft of the world by Takhisis? Time travel was one of the things I liked most about Krynn, in so far as how they handled it: You could travel through time, even into the past, but you could never actually change anything. This made it a great way to have epic adventures without messing up Ansalon's timeline. 8) The Void of Chaos: Is this just another way of saying "Far Realms"? It seems to fit the bill: A realm of madness and chaos that even the gods are afraid of. I realize this is likely where the gods stashed Chaos during the Age of Starbirth, before Reorx stuffed him into the Greygem, but still, it would be neat to have a way to bring in psuedonatural monsters (as well as the ever-loveable kaorti!). 10) The dragon overlords: Are they native to the Krynnish cosmology, or did they 'port in from somewhere else? The fact that the gods had to build a new set of Outer Planes once they found Krynn again suggests Takhisis moved the whole shebang to another multiverse (or at least a pocket dimension). Or did she just move it somewhere else in the Krynnish Material Plane? --thanks guys NB |
| #13iltharanosMar 05, 2004 14:03:17 | Originally posted by Nero's Boot 7. Time travel is possible in the Age of Mortals, since Krynn's past was "reunited" with its present via the events described in the War of Souls. 8. I always thought of it in similar terms. 9. Hmm, where'd your 9 go? ;) 10. If you look at the cosmology description, it describes the Ethereal Sea (Deep Ethereal) wherein Krynn is but one of many worlds. So yes, the dragon overlords are all native to Krynn's cosmology, though not necessarily to the world of Krynn. |
| #14zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 14:06:46 | Originally posted by iltharanos D'oh! Here's the mysterious missing 9th question: 9) Do the gods of Krynn need worship for power, like the gods of Toril, or are they independent of worship and prayer, like the gods of Oerth? --behold, the missing number nine NB |
| #15zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 14:09:50 | Originally posted by iltharanos This makes no sense. Why'd they need to rebuild the Outer Planes, if Krynn was still in the same Material Plane? --this makes no sense NB |
| #16iltharanosMar 05, 2004 14:25:14 | 9. I don't think this has been addressed specifically in any of the source material. Perhaps a mixture of both? 10. Hmm. Takhisis stole the world and transported it to a different part of the universe. Does that mean a different part of the Ethereal Sea? Perhaps then the Ethereal Sea represents everything in all of existence, and that different parts of the Ethereal Sea (that contain different worlds) would each have its own cosmology. Think of the Ethereal Sea as a pizza pie. Each region (with its own world) is like a piece of pepperoni lying on that pie. Each piece of pepperoni is distinct from all other slices of pepperoni. This would allow for worlds lying within the Ethereal Sea to each have their own outer planar makeup. Hence the moving of Krynn from one part of the pie to the other necessitated the recreation of its outer planar makeup. This tends to explain why none of the dragons native to the overlords' world knew of deities such as Takhisis. Perhaps in the overlords "piece of the pie", there were no deities. Where does this leave the Shadow Plane? The Manual of the Planes states that depending on your cosmology , the Plane of Shadow may lead to alternate cosmologies. In this case, the route to alternate cosmologies would be through the Ethereal Sea via (though not limited to) such spells as Ethereal Jaunt and Etherealness. The Plane of Shadow is thus not a crossroads to alternate realities. Of course, this is all just my take on the matter. There's been no official description of the planar traits of Krynn's cosmology so far. |
| #17brimstoneMar 05, 2004 14:37:58 | Originally posted by Nero's Boot Oops...I should have prefaced that with, "I completely disagree with the Irda having Wizard as their favored class." ;) I see Irda as completely seperate from First Born Ogres...they have changed over the millenia...and magic has become an innate part of their being. Wizardry doesn't really stink of "innate" to me. |
| #18NivedMar 05, 2004 15:24:00 | 9) Do the gods of Krynn need worship for power, like the gods of Toril, or are they independent of worship and prayer, like the gods of Oerth? I don't believe so. If they did removing all clerics of true faith from the world and dropping a mountain on the city that is the world's center of religion would be practically suicide. (The First Cataclysm) So I think we can safely say that no, they aren't dependant on the faith of their worshipers. Besides I can think of at least one god, Sirrion, who doesn't really activly try to recruit worshipers. Which would probably be something a god would do if they required worshipers. |
| #19zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 15:24:38 | Originally posted by Nero's Boot Hate to disagree....but Krynn is not conected to Oerth in any fashion....with the official rules. The onset of the third edition brought us the disconnection of the settings. The settings are only connected like that if you happen to run your game that way. But the official stance is that the settings are not linked in any way. The plane of shadow in the Greyhawk D&D setting is not the same plane of Shadow that is in the Krynn cosmology. Dont take this as nasty arguement...I just am in love with the fact that the campaigns arent linked to my beloved DL setting anymore. Thing is...you can obviously run it the old way with the multiverse theory intact....and thats cool too....Im just pointing out the official stance.....but....to get back to the topic.....you wanted to know what happened if a non native psion found himself on Krynn....accoriding to the "Unsung Heroes" supplement their psionics would eventually fade away.....eventually dwindling to nothing. However...like others have said....The new DL rules dont mention it one way or the other...letting individual DM's decide for themselves whether psionics existed....I tend to take the old view....that psionics just dont exist on Krynn....It just feels right to me....and I have a long running dislike for psionics anyway...so that works for me. But....I have experimented with a psion in my game before......It just didnt work out too well...The Psion was in the party that I put through the original DLs. It just didnt have any reason or rhyme to it....What with everything in Dragonlance having a history and a reason to be....adding psionics just didnt work....That and a fifth type of magic is just waaaaay too much in my game. |
| #20zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 17:46:46 | Originally posted by Brimstone I have to say that I completely agree with Brimstone on this. I know that there is a difference between what is written in books and game mechanics, but the magical talents of the Irda seem much more to fit the sorcery class than the wizard class. Besides, sorcery is much more of a forgotten art than a new one.....which could have very well survived with the Irda who were nearly forgooten themselves. I think that the DLCS was excellently written, but it is one thing as a DM that I would house rule.....Irda favored class is sorcerer, no matter what time period. So yes, I would even a allow an Irda sorcerer during the war of the lance.....the Wizards of High Sorcery may have converted others to High Sorcery and eradicated those who wouldn't follow (renegades), but that doesn't mean that sorcery was gone. Point being, I think there is a strong argument for the Irda's favored class to be sorcerer. |
| #21cam_banksMar 05, 2004 18:45:13 | It's one thing to recognize that the Irda's innate magical powers derive from ambient magic (much as dragon magic is innate and not "wild magic" but not "high sorcery") but it's quite another to make their favored class one which isn't available to mortal characters until the Age of Mortals. Sorcerers use a kind of ambient magic that is tainted by Chaos. Creatures with effective levels of sorcerer are using magic which isn't, but because of their natures can still draw upon this ambient power without Chaos' help. In other words, to get the power of wild magic, a mortal needs Chaos' taint to draw upon it. A fey or dragon or similar magical creature doesn't. Irda can draw on ambient magic slightly, as reflected in their innate talents, but taking levels of sorcerer indicates using the standard mortal approach (i.e. wild magic tainted by Chaos and shaped by the sorcerer). Because their innate talents aren't Chaos-tainted, they can freely take levels in non-ambient spellcasting classes such as wizard or cleric, and indeed they are very good wizards thanks to their arcane natures. Cheers, Cam |
| #22zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 22:18:32 | Originally posted by Cam Banks Ok, I understand that there is a difference, however I still don't see why the wizard class would be a more appropriate class for the Irda's favored class. The DLCS describes primal sorcery as being the oldest kind of magic, and it also explains that high sorcery was taught to three mortals during the second dragon war. These three went on to teach others, however I don't see how this knowledge could've reached the irda who had fled to escape persecution over 3000 years prior to this, and who continued to live in isolation until the chaos war. I also don't see why they would've stopped using whatever form of magic that they were using before. In their solitude, wouldn't the irda still be using a form of magic older than high sorcery? Additionally, how can a race which doesn't even enjoy the company of it's own kind be taught a form of magic like high sorcery, which takes years of apprenticeship? Now, applying this information into the class descriptions given in both the PHB and the extended descriptions given in the DLCS, it seems that the sorcerer would be a more natural choice. In the PHB it describes sorcerers as using magic through inborn talent, and wizards gaining mastery over magic through intensive study. According to the DLCS, sorcerers manipulate magic without drawing upon the power from Solinari, Lunitari, or Nuitari. This is quite obvious, otherwise it wouldn't have worked during the time period after the chaos war and before the war of souls. Wizards, on the other hand, do gain their power from the three moons. While this is open to interpretation, I have always taken this to mean that only wizards practice high sorcery, and highy sorcery is the only thing that wizards practice. So what was practiced before high sorcery? I figure it was either that which is practiced by the sorcerer class, or at least something very much akin to it. Therefore, in their isolation, the irda would practice magic much in this way, more like a sorcerer and less like a wizard. Wow, we could start a whole new thread on this... |
| #23cam_banksMar 05, 2004 22:41:39 | Originally posted by vivisect Krynnish sorcerers don't follow the same flavor text that core PHB sorcerers do. They don't have outsider or dragon blood, they don't spontaneously intuit magic, etc. Krynnish sorcerers learn by trial and error, practice and effort. There's no genetic tendency to be a sorcerer, although (like wizards) there's a possibility that the inclination to use magic or become proficient in it is something you're born with, much as a basketball player is born with an inclination or natural affinity. According to the current timeline, there was no arcane magic available to mortals prior to the emergence of the Greygem, which released chaotic energies enabling mortals to tap into Krynn's primal or ambient magic. Because the power of Chaos enabled it, this magic was tainted and wild, and eventually when used in the wars against the dragons its mortal users lost control over it and precipitated years of magical distaster. The Gods of Magic taught a more refined, codified and pure (as focused by their moons) arcane magic to mortals, including those Irda who existed at this time. Note that while the Irda had minor access to ambient magic before the Greygem (shapeshifting and cantrips etc) they wouldn't have been sorcerers. Once the Gods introduced High Sorcery, wild magic fell into disuse and Chaos' energies faded from the world, making sorcerers incapable of tapping into the ambient magic. Splitting open the Greygem and releasing Chaos revived wild magic, because those energies were once more present in the world and enabling mortals to draw upon ambient magic. Thus, sorcerers returned. Between the Age of Dreams and the Age of Mortals, there simply were no sorcerers, making it a lousy favored class for Irda. Cheers, Cam |
| #24zombiegleemaxMar 05, 2004 23:04:43 | Ok, I don't quite agree, but I'll at least buy this as the reasoning for making the wizard their favored class. However, this still brings up an interesting question... This may be somewhat hard to follow as I'm asking gaming questions out of gaming context, but hopefully you'll get the main idea. If running a campaign set prior to the teaching of high sorcery, would you consider arcane spellcasters to use the wizard or sorcerer class? I would think it would be the sorcerer, which is why I always felt that the irda would favor sorcerers over wizards. If so, when high sorcery was taught and enforced upon mortals, what happened to the sorcerer class? Were they simply converted to the wizard class and/or destroyed, or was this ability somehow contained by the gods of magic? |
| #25cam_banksMar 05, 2004 23:14:17 | Originally posted by vivisect You would use the sorcerer class. I would think it would be the sorcerer, which is why I always felt that the irda would favor sorcerers over wizards. If so, when high sorcery was taught and enforced upon mortals, what happened to the sorcerer class? Were they simply converted to the wizard class and/or destroyed, or was this ability somehow contained by the gods of magic? Most were either converted or branded renegades for not conforming to the will of the Gods of Magic, and scattered. It helped that the chaotic energies of the Greygem were fading and making it increasingly harder to use the wild magic of the time. It also wouldn't have been hard to convince people to switch, either - not only do the Gods want you to, but you'd just have come out of years and years of hellish magical storms over Ansalon caused by wild magic getting out of hand. Cheers, Cam |
| #26iltharanosMar 06, 2004 1:48:55 | Hmm. Does this mean the ambient magical energy released during the Chaos War will eventually fade to the point where sorcerers and those that spontaneously cast arcane spells like them will no longer be able to tap into those energies? Examining the timeline one finds a gap of approximately 1500 years between the first release of the Graygem and the subsequent teaching of High Sorcery to wild mages (presumably signalling the lessening of those chaotic energies). I suppose given the timespans involved, such an eventual fading of sorcerous energy would have no real impact on any current campaigns, as the time involved far outpaces anything but a true dragon's lifespan ... but it does seem a bit disconcerting to know that in time such energy will fade. |
| #27zombiegleemaxMar 06, 2004 2:26:44 | I dont think that ambient magic is going away this time though....the last time it went away because the gods of magic were instructing High Sorcery instead......and discouraging ambient sorcery totally.....another thing to point out is that the people of Krynn were liely to listen to the gods about that kind of thing then....this time the gods dont really have the grasp on all Krynn that they had then....so Im thinking the people who use ambient sorcery will keep right on doing so....as Chaos' stamp is still very much on the world....and I dont really think it is going away totally....ever |
| #28cam_banksMar 06, 2004 6:03:12 | Originally posted by iltharanos Last time it was just the Greygem's release upon the world and the wild surges it caused which led to ambient magic being accessible to mortals. In the Summer of Flame, the Greygem was literally broken and Chaos was released, so it appears this time that the changes are permanent. Note also that ambient arcane magic is always present, it's the leftover power of creation. It's the taint of Chaos on the world which allows for mortals to reach out to that magic and use it. Chaos in other words is a catalyst for power and change, and it is the use of Chaos to access ambient magic (not so much the magic itself) which flies in the face of the Gods. Creatures such as dragons don't need Chaos to help them use magic, so the Gods aren't bothered by them. Cheers, Cam |
| #29iltharanosMar 06, 2004 6:41:35 | Well, it's good to know primal sorcery is here to stay. :D |