http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192238
I've been thinking...
Are Athasian "people", normal, like in most other D&D worlds?
1) The lack of suitable, common materials for tools and armour as good as iron, has a real hampering effect on folk. Consider the South American cultures pre-1600s. The people were HIGHLY skilled in architecture and other crafts but little diversification or innovation. Now this may well have been purely a social thing, we know they were highly intelligent people (witness their complex star calculations, art and civil engineering). But what extent did lack of metals hinder them?
--Advantage of metals is they are highly maleable in crafting, thus many NEW things can be developed.
--Athasians have uitilized other matrials as repalcements, they have scant quantitites of iron tools and ancient relics, they KNOW OF such things having once existed (at least the learned do)
2) THousands of years of vicious evolution. In a world where tools lack the ability to make up for comparativley feeble raw combat abilities of human-type races, and the NUMBERS of civilized people is small, sheer brutal survival would have a profound impact. The tough survive, weaklings are weeded out.
--Remember this is NOT Earth, things like Dune Reapers, So-Ut, braxats etc CANNOT be easily dealt with by a few simple traps and bows as our ancestors and even contemporaries do with tigers etc.
3) magic and psionics. There's always strong references ot "strange mutations in the wastelands", now I don't know all about Athas, having read 3 or four of the novels and having many but not all of the published materials. So, Athas seems to be a place where many dangerous beast are either created or acted upon by "mystical" effects, as well as sheer Darwinism, to create new variants.
--Surely this affects people to?
4) The social set up and population numbers of most Athasian cultures. Slavery, magicla and psionical domination, millenia old sorceror kings, the fact simple farmers would be in constant danger...many thinsg would make Athasian culture different, and thus affect people.
So what would the net effect be?
Ok I see it like this:
*EVERYONE* who is not a weak, well off, or lacks the will, would have to have combat ability. I'm not talking high levels etc, by this I mean a freeman-farmer, a slave trying to get his fair share of food in the pens etc will probably be a "warrior" NPC class.
You're average Athasian would have 2 levels: 1 non-combat, 1 combat or 2 non-combat and using Feats to help as need.
Consider this:
Gorg is a freeman farmer working for a noble, he has a family of 5.
He is an Expert lvl 1 and Warrior lvl 1. His skill with farming has to be good to simply survive, rotten farmers *DIE* or are sold as slaves. But unlike farmers in more civilized worlds EVERY DAY he faces potential danger, this is an important point, we are not talking about the "wars of kings" which the "little man" merely tries to avoid, we're talking giant ants, hungry maruaders etc.
--Think the AMerican frontier circa 1600--1700 (and the biggest danger then was thieving murdering white folks not the natives)
--Gorg has neither the trianing nor inclination to be a "fighter", but by necessity he HAS had to learn to use armour and weaponry, and has slain several minor monsters, along with aid from others.
--Farming people are usually very fit, in the old days on Earth, armies liked recruiting young farm hands for their toughness and having lived a tough life.
--Gorg is very tough and strong, he and his ancestors for thousands of years have worked under the hot Athsian sun, he most certianly would NOT have "10" strength and Con.
Marl is a slave in the brickpits, now, a good few of his fellows are weak, lack-lustre, mind blasted or numbed, and that is why they are slaves doomed to die. Survival also comes down to not merely "stats" but that certain spark of will power.
--Marl is a Commoner 1st, Brute 1st
--He has no skills or knowledge or ability that could help him as a construction slave, he will not be bought and well treated for his ability to shape clay, make murals etc. He does have a fury and sheer gall that makes him dangerous, he makes sure he gets his share at feeding time, and has defeated several folk who came against him. He hopes either to escape one day or become a gladiator, for at least he has a chance for better treatment there.
Slaves are an unusal group, since while they can be from a vast cross-section of the populace, masters generally dont WANT dangerous combat-types. They do want very hardy and strong folk though. You could imagine that say, 50% of slaves are Commoners 1st level, but with 14+ Con and Strength. While masters may wish to give them little rations to save costs, they can't afford to because they get less resources back out. A wise master would rather have a few good slaves decently fed, than more poor slaves badly fed. Not a question or morality, just common sense. Yes, ill fed slaves are weaker, less able to rebel, but they also dig less, make less etc. Athasians in general simply canot afford waste. Exception to this would be when a rulers brings back excess slaves from conquests, THEN "culling" may occur.
City dwellers are spared some of the harshness BUT, face other problems. Unless you have a glib tongue and quick mind, it's very easy to becoem a slave or dead in Dark Sun. To survive as a city dweller you had best excel at something, or have wealth. Even then, the ability to defend yourself is important.
Cryless is a potter in Tyr (during Kalak's rule), a free person with a small shop with 2 slaves. She is a 3rd lvl Expert, she has to strive to keep her skills good, to sell, to make money for necessities and to buy off templars, therefor she is no simple apprentice. Combat wise, she is very good with daggers, for she uses knives a lot in her style of crafting. She takes the feats Weapon Focus (Dagger), Improved Initiative and Persuasive, so she is fast when threatened, able to kill, and avoid trouble and control her own slaves well. Over the years she's gutted a couple of elven thieves and a monstrous spider.
Prilador is a slave in a tannery. he is treated reasonably well basiclaly because his mater stays as far form him as possible, because Prilador is a "fuller" (I'll let you go read up on what this actual trade got up to, lets just say to refined folk, it's nasty). He and his co-workers have an unpleasant job but one that lets them have a freer reign. However that doesn't make life safe. Prilador doesn't need any skills to do his part of the work, he is merely a "Commoner", and is denied weaponry except when working with leather. Prilador is a 1st lv commoner who has taken Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon focus (unarmed). As a young man he hasn't had too much fighting, but it surely goes on.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
As far as mutations go, I had the players roll a d20. If they rolled a 1, it was a detrimental mutation (had a table for it). If they rolled a 20, it was beneficial. Still have that thing around, somewhere.
You need to share that once you find it.
:D
(I just went with my own campign reasons, but hm, red giant sun, would that be nasty?)
1) Most mutations will not be favorable.
2) Most people will not have mutations.
3) If a player wants a mutation, but doesn't want to take a chance on rolling a bad one, let them take mutations that do not effect gameplay. Some examples include:
a) Metallic-colored skin.
b) Oddly-colored eyes.
c) Pointed ears (if human).
d) Scaly skin.
e) A short, stubby tail.
f) You get the picture.
4) If the player's willing to take a risk, they can roll for it. Now I don't have the table I made in front of me, but the player had a pretty even chance of getting something really good, something kind of good, something kind of bad (that would draw attention), or something really bad (think organs on the outside of their body, or a broadcasting telepath - no secrets are safe and they annoy the HELL out of any psions in the area).
I'll head down to my storage shed tomorrow and see if I can track down that notebook.
Basiclly it said that NPCs gain 1000 XP per year of age after 20 to advance in NPC classes. This was based on the assumption that the life of the commoner is challenging in itself and that the distribution of power changed from 2E to 3E (higher level, more monsters/NPC with class level).
That means an NPC can and should have a few levels, in Dark Sun this could be more Warrior and Expert levels than commoner level like in other campaigns.
Kilamar
It was this article, right, Kilamar?
I like many of things you pointed out, Silverblade.
Doesn't the first DS boxed set say something about a lot of humans being slightly mutated? I have to look this up...
Thank you!
So, er, what exaclty is the offical reason for all the Athasian mutations?
You also need to remember that Athas was one of the first worlds where the writers calaborated with an artist (Brom) to create the flavor of the world. In many of Brom's, and Baxa's, pieces, you can see mutations.
It's also pointed out in the human description that the human "stock" is not pure. It makes a couple suggestions in the text (don't have the book in front of me, because I'm at work - a little help?), but there are no solid "rules" and certainly nothing that is official. Everything I came up with, I came up with on my own.
So if you're still reading at this point, the main idea is that humans are the most numerous species, so mutations are most likely to show up in their (our) population. From an evolutionary standpoint, mutations that are beneficial will tend to "stick" if they help the target survive. If they are not beneficial, they tend to get their host killed and therefore are not passed on in the genepool (that's the simple version, there are a great many other factors that come into play, as I'm sure you know). So, in most cases, the mutations will be little things; *things that wouldn't affect gameplay.*
Now, as a GM, you have to decide whether you want to add in something that would affect gameplay by giving either an advantage or disadvantage to the player. There are two ways you can do this, and I've done both to some extent. The first is a "point system" while the second is "completely random."
The Point System works best if you are using the point system to create characters. This way, a player can use their attribute points to purchase a beneficial mutation or gain attribute points by taking a detrimental one.
If you are using the Random System, then the player rolls on a table and takes whatever they get. Basically, I had this set up, if I remember right, on a d20. If you rolled a 1 (or I may have been more brutal and made it a 1-5), you got a bad mutation, if you rolled a 19-20, you had a good mutation. If you rolled a 6-11, you had no mutation. If you rolled 12-18, you had a basic mutation (didn't affect gameplay).
Sounds a good way to do it. *ponders on tables n' stuff*
Brom's work was just soooo dern good
*sigh*
I'm pretty sure that there are references to "no two families have the same skin colour" - Veiled alliance, if nothing else. Also there's an NPC, also in Veiled Alliance, I think, who has a mutation of gill slits (that do nothing).
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
If by "official" you mean "is there anything in the TSR books that justify mutations" the answer is yes. If you mean "did TSR ever make a table of mutations that I could use" the answer is no.
Aah, that is true.
However...
(heh, I just realised I never shared this on this board, and I wonder how many people know about it...)
When Athas was abandonned by TSR, it was (unsuccesfully) transported to RoleMaster (ah, nostalgia) and Iron Crown Enterprises (to which D&D's Monte Cook was related) by the authors (or some of them at least, including Brown).
Anyways, Rolemaster being a game of extreme detail, it did have a table for mutations, light and heavy. I'm not sure what are the rules for posting it here though. Anyone knows?
And by the way, anyone else has the Dark Sun Rolemaster manual?
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Aah, that is true.
However...
(heh, I just realised I never shared this on this board, and I wonder how many people know about it...)
When Athas was abandonned by TSR, it was (unsuccesfully) transported to RoleMaster (ah, nostalgia) and Iron Crown Enterprises (to which D&D's Monte Cook was related) by the authors (or some of them at least, including Brown).
Anyways, Rolemaster being a game of extreme detail, it did have a table for mutations, light and heavy. I'm not sure what are the rules for posting it here though. Anyone knows?
And by the way, anyone else has the Dark Sun Rolemaster manual?
Er.. wow! Never even heard of this, Shei-Nad.
(>pulls at Shei's chin, ears and hair suspiciously a few times, still unsure that it's not The WarOverlord in a cunning disguise<)
Hmmm - will have to go and have a little hunt
[suddenly starts to pull at his face to rip the mask off WarOverlord]
Is that really true, Shei-Nad? Could you tell us (the community) more about this?
"Well, it sure doesn't taste like Waroverlord. Weird."
I have no Idea who the WarOverlord is, however, I am Shei-Nad the Warbringer, first champion of Quebec! (Go les gars! ;))
More seriously though, I am absolutely serious (thats quite serious, eh? ;)). I'm not at my place right now though, so I don't have access to the book. I'll start a new thread on this as soon as I get there, I think.
Bet ye can't wait! :p
On Athas, centuries of abusive magic have not only scarred the landscape - they've twisted the essence of human appearance, as well. Many humans in Dark Sun look normal, and could pass unnoticed among the humans of the FORGOTTEN REALMS or GREYHAWK campaign settings. Others, however, have marked alterations to their appearance. Their facial features might be slightly bizarre; a large chin or nose, pointed ears, no facial hair, etc. Their coloration ight be subtley different, such as coppery, golden brown, hueds [sic] of grey, or patchy. The differences may be more physical, such as webbed toes or fingers, longer or shorter limbs, etc. A player with a human character should be given broad latitude in making up these alterations to his form, if he so wishes. Ultimately, none of them will give him any benefit nor any hindrance to game play - his appearance is strictly a roleplaying asset.
~ page 13-14, DS Rules Book (original).
I took that to heart and created a whole table for it (forgot to get the notebook, I'll pick it up later today). The player could choose to do as above and just take something for looks - wouldn't affect the game. If they wanted something special, though, they had to choose either the point system or the random system.
I'm pretty sure that there are references to "no two families have the same skin colour" - Veiled alliance, if nothing else. Also there's an NPC, also in Veiled Alliance, I think, who has a mutation of gill slits (that do nothing).
The NPC would be Athrialix Denestor if I'm not mistaken.
Originally posted by mason
I believe what Shei-Nad is referring to, is a (?fan made?)conversion of DS to Rolemaster. It was never printed, so there is no ISBN. You can probably download it somewhere if you scour the internet enough. On pages 5-6, it does have a table for determining minor & major mutations. Overall, I don’t like this conversion because it only allows you to play humans!?
Its not fan made though, from what I can tell... I'll get back on this later.
however, as I said, it is not so good, and it does indeed only lets you play humans. And if I remember correctly, there aren't even any wizards!
Good lord, please purge my mind of those dreadfully long days and all too many sleepless nights pouring over such mad scientist tomes of insanity that were titled Rolemaster . . . I tried. I really did. We never did get that MERP campaign off the ground.
Oh Mach, you'd LOVE this. Pages 160 to 229 have those wonderful spell lists for magic and psionics. And yes, it does have all those hideous rules for *everything*(except Advanced Beings, which I'm glad because it would probably give me a headache just to look at!). It really is hideous. Oh and I would imagine this thing is pretty much copyright violation incarnate---all the artwork is recycled from Brom/Baxa's stuff. The cover is the one from Slave Tribes. They do atleast mention them in the front credits though.
Oh, and in case your wondering, you can probably nab a copy from your *favorite* file sharing network. ;)
*stabs self in the face*
Back to the topic, I use alot of racial diversity. As long as the PCs keep it comsetic, I really don't limit their imagination for being creative. Of course, I keep the final say as to whether or not the mutation is 'fitting' or not (small horns, glowing red eyes, and small pointy canine teeth, while very fitting for Ravenloft or Planescape, are just a bit too vampire/demonic for my DS). And modeling the cosmetics after anime is a flat out offense worthy of exile from the gaming table.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Good lord, please purge my mind of those dreadfully long days and all too many sleepless nights pouring over such mad scientist tomes of insanity that were titled Rolemaster . . . I tried. I really did. We never did get that MERP campaign off the ground.
First time I played MERP, my super cool dunedain ranger fumbled his horse-riding roll, fell into a ditch halfway to the trollshaws and broke his hip.
And then we went to Shelob's lair.
Anybody ever try to play Chivalry & Sorcery? Any game that makes you roll for your parents' eye color is clearly up to no good...
One problem with being fit on Athas or any desert or ancient world was food supply. In most ancient cities, the average person was only about 5 feet high. This was not due to evolution but food supply and diet. While your average hunter/gatherer or nomad, who moved around a lot and ate a varied diet, was much more fit and taller than your average city-dweller. I don't imagine Athasians to have a varied diet. I expect them to always be on the verge of starvation, eating just enough not to starve to death. They would not be super humans as they are in Dark Sun, but rather weaker.
Played Roll Master a few times, can't believe they did a version of DS.
Decent system, full of alot of options, just prefer D&D for it's simplicity, hehe.
Evolution does not take thousands of years, but rather hundreds of thousands of years or so.
There's always talk of survival of the fittest on Athas; that because of the harshness, the weak die while the strong live on to propegate the species. However, as you pointed out, evolution works on that principle in a much slower fashion. Nature cannot hope to keep up with virtually asured extinction of a species due to rapid environmental changes. I would have to agree that if Athas were indeed a real world with real science, the Athasian populations would likely be in a pitiful state.
Evolution has pretty severe leaps and accelerations, but yah usually over tens or hundreds of thousands of years with longer periods of less deviation. Evolution seems more to be a "general slope with a series of steps". It sure isn't a nice smooth gradient.
Actually, compared to your distant ancestors, you're pinky will be half an inch shorter ;)
Look at dogs and other domesticated animals, their evolution has been drastically altered by intervention.
So consider what this means in a magical world, and one possibly bathed in more radiation than the Earth. While radiation is not the, ahem, cause of "MUTANTS!!! TERRORS OF THE EARTH!" *he says in a 1950's shlock film voice*, it does have an effect on genetic variation. What of "polluting magic", that is "leakage" of magic etc.
Magic can warp creatures radically by direct choice to have certian abilities, note in D&D creatures like Skum and Histachii mutated by the aboloeths and Yuan-Ti.
Whether it's the classi cmad mage, or one trying merely to improve his riding mount or his people's chance of survival of a catastrophy, a wizard would have one HELL of an effect on evolution.
Evolution does not take thousands of years, but rather hundreds of thousands of years or so. The only difference between modern humans and my european ancestors 30,000 years ago was that they had a better sense of smell. That was it. Well, they did have dark skin, but that evolved out in a few thousands of years. In fact, the copper skin of your average Athasian was probably pale during the cleansing wars and now on its way to being much darker.
This is true and not true. Evolution proceeds in a plateau format. So you'll see a huge burst of change, usually inspired by an environmental change, and then nothing for a long time. Humans are a bad example because we're smart enough that evolution is going to come slower. For example, we don't live "outside," so to speak, so the environment does not effect us as much as, say, butterflies. Also, your assumption is that there is nothing in the environment that causes mutations (radiation, weird magic, a big freakin' tower that does it specifically).
Not calling you out, just pointing out that evolution is not a simple process.
On to the next one:
Then again, evolution occurs at a FASTER pace than has been thought for a long time, i.e. basic Darwinism isn't correct.
Darwinism was simplified for the masses and survival of the fittest isn't exactly what it's all about. I'm sure you know this, but I like to type, so here goes:
Let's say that you have two types of people living on a very simple, very small world. One is extremely hairy and one has no hair. Let's assume the world is very hot. Since hair is a bit of a detriment, in this case, so there will be fewer of the hairy types - most die of heat stroke before they can reproduce, so their numbers are much less than those smarmy "no-hair" types. Oooo! But the weather shifts and the cold snows blow in and the entire world's plunged into an ice age.
Suddenly, those long-hairs have the advantage because they are able to live long enough in the cold to reproduce whereas one the very toughest of the no-hairs can. No-hairs numbers drop. In this case, the "mutation" became the norm simply because it was more adapted to the environment. Evolution is very much a case of right place, right time.
On to the final point: it's fantasy, people. The intelligent races were created by halflings walking through a coral tower and you have a problem with mutations? People turn into dragons, magic actually exists, and all the metal mysteriously disappeared. Evolution is the least of the problems of this fantasy world.
I think, in another post, I mentioned that Athas is based on a post-apocalyptic world. The mutations just add to this.
[edit: changed cold to hot. Makes a little more sense that way.]
The intelligent races were created by halflings walking through a coral tower and you have a problem with mutations?
Of course. Things like strange people at white towers of magic altering their race into a massive variety of different bi-**** forms is a rather common scientific phenomenon here on earth . . . isn't it?
Would love to use those for D&D, hehe.