So, all things considered, Krynn's elves technically wouldn't possess those resistances. Laurana and Gilthanas seemed as affected as the other heroes near Huma's tomb by Silvara's sleep spell, right?
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Note too that the elves' immunity to sleep magic and resistance to enchantment spells stems from their lack of a need to sleep.
So, all things considered, Krynn's elves technically wouldn't possess those resistances. Laurana and Gilthanas seemed as affected as the other heroes near Huma's tomb by Silvara's sleep spell, right?
Cheers,
Cam
I just figured that the spell was god-enhanced, or a unique spell.
I have never seen the link between the immunities to sleep, resistance to sleep spells, and the need to sleep. Elves don't get affected by sleep because the magic doesn't correlate with their bodies as much as it would for a human, that or Paladine just designed them not to be.
Originally posted by Daedavias
I just figured that the spell was god-enhanced, or a unique spell.
I have never seen the link between the immunities to sleep, resistance to sleep spells, and the need to sleep. Elves don't get affected by sleep because the magic doesn't correlate with their bodies as much as it would for a human, that or Paladine just designed them not to be.
That's possible, but given that this is the norm for elves on other worlds, and elves on other worlds don't sleep either, it's a bit of a stretch.
Cheers,
Cam
I have never seen the link between the immunities to sleep, resistance to sleep spells, and the need to sleep. Elves don't get affected by sleep because the magic doesn't correlate with their bodies as much as it would for a human
If that was the case they would have just made them "Monsterous Humanoid (elf)" instead of "Humanoid (elf)".
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Note too that the elves' immunity to sleep magic and resistance to enchantment spells stems from their lack of a need to sleep.
So, all things considered, Krynn's elves technically wouldn't possess those resistances. Laurana and Gilthanas seemed as affected as the other heroes near Huma's tomb by Silvara's sleep spell, right?
Remember too that the entire rebel elven army under Ahlana (and Ahlana herself) were put to sleep by a sleep spell in WoS.
However, these examples aside, there is no provision for elves sleeping made in the DLCS rules of those races. Therefore in game terms, krynnish elves meditate just like the elves of other worlds.
~B4Real
I belive they gain their imm. to magical sleep and their resistence to enchament, from their will and their tie to magic.
Elves are stubborn people, a strongwilled people (or at least they were) with a strict culture, and a strict mind. They will not easily be enthralled.
Sencondly elves have closer ties to magic than humans, because they are a more ancient race, their society has been affected greatly by magic, and they are exellent praticioners, whihch would explain that racial affinity and resistance to magic.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Thats just it B4Real...it doesnt say. If it did we wouldnt be having this discussion....
The elves of Krynn have the same abilities as the PHB elves except where differences are noted. Since it doesn't say one way or another in the DLCS, the elves follow the PHB model in regards to sleeping and meditation.
quote:
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The elves of Krynn have the same abilities as the PHB elves except where differences are noted. Since it doesn't say one way or another in the DLCS, the elves follow the PHB model in regards to sleeping and meditation.
It clearly states in the DLCS....(add elven subrace name here) have all the elven 'racial traits' listed in Chapter 2 of the Players Handbook except as follows:
Now the PHB arguement would hold water if the elven trance ability was listed under the 'racial traits' entry for elves.......however it is not...it is under 'physical description'.
Now there are 'physical desription' entries for each of the elven subraces in the DLCS and none of them include anything about elves trancing....it says nothing whatsoever....now we must assume that the DLCS takes precedence as far as physical descriptions go......So it can be safely assumed that DL elves sleep, not trance. If you disagree go ahead and check my work...Its clear as day.
Game....Set...Match!
(sorry...I just felt a little competetive...all in fun);)
you guys always forget the one key- what difference does it make in your game? If you need elves to sleep for campaign reasons, then, by tolkien, they SLEEP!
If they must trance, then they rave the night away. It's all a matter of personal choice and flavor.
Be freed from the constraints of canon! Create a Dragonlance that is right for you! If Drizz't rides Bahamut in your DL, run with it! If illithids live in qualinost and raist is a werewolf, go to town! Create a lance that you want to play in, that you want to live in, and to the abyss with the constraints of the book!
The gods have granted us this Lance of freedom and creativity, and we must use it to slay the Dragonqueen of Restrictions! Go, my brethren, and free krynn from the grasps of the rules lawyers, and live in a world that is all your own!
Originally posted by talinthas
[B Go, my brethren, and free krynn from the grasps of the rules lawyers, and live in a world that is all your own! [/b]
That's just it. If we wanted to live in a world that is all our own, then we wouldn't use the Dragonlane Campaign Setting, we'd use some crazy homebrew world where dragon avatar-riding drow, crazy squid-heads, and power-hungry lycanthrope archmagi roam the land. The whole beauty of a shared setting is in the nitpicking of the details. Hehe.
Theat should please everybody.
(If we again begin to talk about the novels there is actually a precedense, at "the kentommen" the elves meditate one full night, and are more or less rested when the come back)
Yes, DL is a world of shaky precedences and contradictory sources, sometimes from the pages of the same book (cf DLA's famous denial that monks arent in the setting, followed by DLA's Majere having a lot of levels of monk).
The point i'm trying to make is that a lot of these details are utterly immaterial in hte long run. sleeping elves and meditating elves really don't change the course of the campaign, compared to, say, the presence of spelljamming in palanthas and taladas, or whether ariakas is a cleric or mage.
actually, those don't really matter either. there is a core essence that we call dragonlance, involving the tripartite system of GNE, a really strong good vs evil ideal, heavy influence of gods and magic, while maintaining a low magic campaign, and of course, dragons. In the grand scheme, as long as the elements that make the setting recognizably dragonlance, or at least DL-derived, remain, what difference do the smaller details make? Like i keep saying- if your campaign needs bahamut and paladine to be explained, figure it out to fit your needs best. If you need elves to sleep in your DL for ease of making cool night missions, run with it. if you need drow to run your "save the lucanesti" campaign, maybe chemosh had an influence on a splinter group of sylvanesti 5000 years ago. Everything is doable for the sake of your campaign.
Well Ill tell you why....First of all the original poster asked a question that had a clear cut black and white answer. Secondly Iltharanos said it perfectly.....
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That's just it. If we wanted to live in a world that is all our own, then we wouldn't use the Dragonlane Campaign Setting, we'd use some crazy homebrew world where dragon avatar-riding drow, crazy squid-heads, and power-hungry lycanthrope archmagi roam the land. The whole beauty of a shared setting is in the nitpicking of the details. Hehe.
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We play in the DL setting because we like its strange nuances that are not like any other game setting.
And Talinthas, we normally share the same opinion I have noticed, however in this case...
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/shakes his head
you guys always forget the one key- what difference does it make in your game? If you need elves to sleep for campaign reasons, then, by tolkien, they SLEEP!
If they must trance, then they rave the night away. It's all a matter of personal choice and flavor.
Be freed from the constraints of canon! Create a Dragonlance that is right for you! If Drizz't rides Bahamut in your DL, run with it! If illithids live in qualinost and raist is a werewolf, go to town! Create a lance that you want to play in, that you want to live in, and to the abyss with the constraints of the book!
The gods have granted us this Lance of freedom and creativity, and we must use it to slay the Dragonqueen of Restrictions! Go, my brethren, and free krynn from the grasps of the rules lawyers, and live in a world that is all your own!
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This effectively neuters anyones ability to answer a question about DL. Either something is or it isnt in a campaign setting. When someone asks a question here I naturally assume that they are looking for the official answer....And I for one am glad to do my best to find it for someone...which is something that I see alot of people on this board afraid to do...
Apparently its much easier to say "Go on...do what you want, your answer be damned...it doesnt really matter anyway!"
But it DOES matter....why would they ask the questions if it didnt?
I'll tell you why......Because they want the official answer.
And btw, you wanna call me a rules lawyer? Fine...Ill take that one....And raise you with this....I use my rules knowledge to better help those people who want questions answered about a game and a setting I dearly love. Now I am not saying that you care for DL less than I do.....I am simply saying that I will do my best to give someone the official answer to any question....if there is one.
And now comes the part where I end my rant, Talinthas...ye be a worthy opponent.....And I dost respect thou as one of the emissaries of Krynnish lore.....;)
What Im saying is...there's no hard feelings....this isnt a rant against you...just the general answers of "It doesnt matter. Its up to whatever is in your game" We all know Rule 0. BUt sometimes we want to know the interpretation of whats written...the way it is.
DLA, for instance, on the same page contradicts itself with regards to humans and animals and their place in creation. Elves are immune to sleep in one book and fall to sleep spells in another. Blues are immune to lightning, but dalamar shocks one to death in his book. Is ariakas a mage or cleric? the official answer disagrees. Did Kharas really forge the hammer used to make dragonlances, even though he lived many thousand years later? Was Magius a multicolored robe like in LoH, or an elderly white robe like in anvil of time? How long do elves live? How many kids did caramon and tika have? What color were raistlin's eyes? Brown like DoAT, or blue like legends? Did sanction really have volcanic activity pre-cataclysm, as niles says in _The Kagonesti_? Do draconians have abishai souls? How, exactly, do laser wielding cats fit into the setting? Who was the prince of the elves during the swordsheath scroll signing? Is verminaard alive or dead?
Lets stick to just rules questions then- Raist had a 17 int, so how did he cast 9th level spells? What about dragonlances? Do they breathe breathweapons, or do the users hitpoints in damage? Can all dragons breathe fire? Is wyrmfather really the father of all dragons? What breath weapons do metallics use? Does taladas have a common tongue as shown in the comics, or not, as shown in the box set? Can dwarves just shrug off magic?
What is the true origin of kender? What about the true creation story? What about scions, or smiths, or gnomoi? Gully dwarves from humans or gnomes? if humans, where did that half dwarf in brothers in arms come from? If only ogres, elves, and humans can wield magic, where do all these dwarven wizards come from? How come Palin needs spell componants in the war of souls when he's obviously a fifth age sorceror by then? Is there an abyss or does takhisis live in the 9 hells? what about tanarii?
Balif- elf or kender? If there are no orcs, where do all these half orcs keep coming from?
Do elves sleep?
to quote my dear friend MLMartin - "Granted, you probably have a different list of 'what's worthwhile', but the fact remains that this setting has too much disparity in tone and concepts while being too small and narrowly bound to the Core Plotline to accomodate all of them at once."
the problem is that there are questions for this setting that just can't be answered by rules. even the hard and fast rules like "dwarves can't use magic" have been broken. Elves sleep or they don't. Precedence goes both ways here. Dragonlance started out as a world of restrictions, with a set of firm standards of what wasn't acceptible for the world, and then promptly broke those standards as soon as it set them. Hell, the only place you can say that the DL rules and the DL story matched together is DL 1 and autumn twilight. after that, why bother?
You said that something is or isnt in a campaign setting. I wish i could say that this held true in dragonlance. No psionics, unless you have yaggol. No magic dwarves, unless you have thiewar. No neutral dragons, unless you have the astral dragon. No elves sleep, unless you have the sleeping elves. No spelljamming, unless you have Roger Moore's short story. No Demogorgon, unless you have Stone's Throw Away. No signs of divine magic pre wotl, unless you have the mislaxa clerics of taladas, the clerics of preludes/meetings, and that silly broach in the inheritance. No companions seeing the blood sea or stopping takhisis before spring dawning, unless you have 20 odd novels. No kender with topknots before tas, until every other kender ever.
You can name anything. and there will be a way to prove that dragonlance has both it and its opposite as canon. Maybe i'm just jaded after years of trying to run dragonlance games and make sense of dragonlance material, but at this point, the only real recourse is, Forget the official material, and pick that which works best for your campaign. What does 'official' matter, anyway? Sov Press isnt going to knock your house down if your pashin is different from theirs.
being a rules lawyer is easy in the realms. its easy with the core rules of D&D. but it's nigh unto impossible with dragonlance. what do you use as a baseline? Anywhere you choose will bring its own set of contradictions. So rather than sweat the small stuff, pick something and be consistant with it.
/edit- btw serena, this is in no way an attack on you. just the rants of a bitter old fan. (i'm only 23, so not really bitter old man yet)
/editedit- ok, so i'm not really that bitter either. I just really really love dragonlance. maybe i should find a new setting.
No, Kharas did not forge the hammer...it was named for him as he was the most famous wielder of it. Ariakas... a cleric in the modules...a wizard in the books. Elven lifespans are detailed in the races chapter of the DLCS. Dragonlances do regular damage as well as ability score damage. Metallic Dragons use the breath weapons that the metallic dragons of the MM use. It was never said that only Humans, Elves, and Ogres could use magic....it was simply said that they were the only races who were allowed to use time travel magic (Tas doesnt contradict this...he simply broke the law set forth by the Conclave) Once again dragons have the breath weapons listed as in the MM. Palin needed material components during the WoS because primal sorcerers require spell components just like a wizard (a la DLCS rules). There is an abyss, and it is not the nine hells...it is simply the Abyss.
These are all answers to your questions....and official answers at that. Each and every one straight from the DLCS
Half Orcs in Krnn can be attributed to bad editing mistakes.
My point is, official answers are there, and they do matter. I mean seriously, to run a campaign that has believeability one must be able to answer these types of questions. And yes, sometimes you will have to make up an answer because it is simply not there. or there are the glaring contradictions that you speak of. But many of the answers are sitting there in the DLCS, just waiting to be found.
Another thing, you ask, what does official matter? Ill tell you. Some people want to run their game as close to the official setting rules as possible. Not because they are not creative, they just want to have run a game that agrees with the official rules and canon material.
This is valid as well.
And I am sick to death of people telling me official doesnt matter.....especially those who clamored for official DL rules to be released. If they dont matter then why do people want them?
I am one of those people who wanted official Dragonlance 3rd Edition rules. Does that make me uncreative? No....
Do I go shoving my opinion on how a game should be run on someone else? Do I force others to play my way? No...
Do I ask for official rulings on questions about the setting I play in because I want to know the official stance on the matter? Yes....
Thats all I ask for....And I dont think its too much to ask.
Originally posted by talinthas
/edit- btw serena, this is in no way an attack on you. just the rants of a bitter old fan. (i'm only 23, so not really bitter old man yet)
/editedit- ok, so i'm not really that bitter either. I just really really love dragonlance. maybe i should find a new setting.
I know...My response wasnt an attack on you either....
Im in the same boat as you, a dedicated fan of the setting....I just like to have clear cut answers...and they're there......we just gotta persist and we'll find em.....most of em are in the Sovereign Press material.....I do appreciate that they have put to rest a lot of things by simply remaining consistent with their material.
And no...you shouldnt find a new setting.......DL is great as you well know....you should just come to expect more official answers about it....Because I am hoping that SP will continue their record of continuity and consistence
i'm not sure how i ended up on the wrong side of this argument, since everything you want is everything i've wanted since i started gaming =)
i guess its just the years of waiting for a solid, uncontradictory baseline have gotten to me. that, or i've become delusional and think that the answers i seek arent actually there.
i run two dragonlance games. one is set in the war of chaos, and one is set in the sylvan key/kod. my chaos war game has been going since 3e came out. the first months of the campaign involved me making up my own stats for monsters since the MM hadnt even come out yet. At that point in time, DL was a dead setting for all intents and purposes. Fast forward a bunch of years, and the DLCS comes out, and with it a promise of a new baseline. But so many questions still remain as we try to patch a first edition setting into 3rd edition, and try to accomodate all the myriad changes along the way.
What i wanted was a restart- a book that took everything into account, and recreated dragonlance from scratch, using the best of everything before, and leaving us with a book that needed no supplementation or outside knowledge. a book that would definatively tell us if elves sleep or not. but we got...well, i'm not gonna rehash that argument.
Suffice to say, yes, everything can be made to work, and yes, we can basically patch it all with bubblegum and dreams, but it will still be just a patch.
think about it. when you look at other settings, do people ask these simple questions? How many FR fans wonder at night if Drizz't sleeps or is a drow? Their book explains everything, and with 3e, didnt even need a cataclysm to do it.
We, with war of souls, actually got the perfect reset mechanism, and the perfect chance to start a new krynn and say, with the return of the gods, and the effects of chaos, regardless of how it may or may not have been, this is how it is. When paladine came to krynn as an elf, he brought with him the ability for elves to meditate instead of sleep. end of story.
they could have done this with every silly plothole and contradiction and it would have been fine.
who exactly are you asking for official answers from anyway? i just own the books. i just read them, and pick them apart to figure out what works in relation to what, and how it impacts my game and the story at large.
i really want official answers on things. my position has been pretty firm for a long time, on various online forums. i hate the castle on the hill. it leads to silly arguments like this, where no one wins, and everyone is frustrated.
but in lieu of any sort of coherency, this is what we have.
@ the unneccessary argueing.So do Dragonlance elves sleep or not ? Because from what I read they are just like the other elves in the PHB.
~Az
for the sake of simplicity, yes they sleep. Dragons of winter night explicitly shows this, as well as showing them being affected by sleep spells.
Remember as well that those elves in WoS might have fallen under a "sleeping" spell, but it was just "DM Magic". AKA Cheating the rules so that your precious story isn't interrupted by "rules" or "precidents".
-TRRW