Not everything was bad in them, but there were some elements that needed tweaked.
.But I guess I was wrong.
I have been scearhing for it, but I have only been able to find number 2,3, and 4, through www.hitpointe.com
But I haven't bought them yet. Are they THAT bad?
In my campaign I ignore the PP and pretty much leave the world as it is presented in the first boxed set. In the end this is up to the individual DM, just go for the thing which is the most fun for you and your group.
By and large, I think the Pentad was well done, but I agree that the sorcerer-kings should be in the background, making them seem beyond the players, which they should be.
Alemander
For example, instead of having Rikus, Sadira, Tithian, Neeva, and Agis kill Kalak in the span of about one year, I have a long-running campaign that spans about five years of game time where the players rush all about gathering components, playing one side against the other, and avoiding the gaze of a brutal sorcerer king who's been playing this game for the better part of 4,000 years. Rikus still throws the spear, but Kalak does not go down easy.
The Crimson Legion is a great idea for a massive-war-scale campaign, and I use a lot of the ideas from it. After that, I tend to pick and choose which parts to keep or leave. I never understood why TSR released Valley of Dust and Fire and then, what? One year later? They make all of the information in that book completely useless. Never understood that. I tend to have Rajaat come back, a few of the SKs are temporarily killed (see other threads for an explanation here), some permanently disappear, and so on.
Basically, I put more of the weight of the world on the PCs' shoulders.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Basically, I put more of the weight of the world on the PCs' shoulders.
Exactly, as the way it should be.
That will be the focus of my next campaign.
Verdant Passage: I like this book because it brought all the main characters together on a good adventure. It does end in the death of Kalak, but I felt that it was beleviable. Kalak was in a pupate stage, and was very vulnerable at the time. Tithian's part in the final battle was also very entertaining. Of the books ive read Verdant Passage is the best.
Crimson Legion: This one focuses on Rikus and Neeva, leading a legion of slaves and templars against Urik. It wasn't as good as Verdant Passage, a lot of the enjoyment was in watching Rikus try to keep control of his army. Caelum was an interesting character in this book. His description in the book has made a big difference in how I will play para-elemental clerics in my game. It could get a little dry at times, however.
Amber Enchantress: Sadira is by far my favorite character, so it wasn't hard to enjoy this book... I was alternately rooting and berating this character throughout the book. The spells in this book were interesting to down right weird. You didn't often catch sadira casting spells like lightning bolts and magic missiles. The intrigue in the elven tribe is a large part of the enjoyment, so if you found the parts about Rikus leading his army dry in Crimson Legion, the intrigue in Amber Enchantress will probably be equally dry.
Obsidian Oracle: It had a good start, and drew you in. There were several parts in the book where i got really impressed with the plots going between agis of asticles and tithian. The scenes from the silt sea were interesting and showed how far Athas has gone. All the business with the giants was dry for me, however.
I haven't finished the last book yet. But from what i can tell, this is the book that is really the cause for all of the conflict about the changing of the setting. In it, obviously a lot of sorcerer kings die, and I don't see how the series could end in any way other than the Dragon's death. I think there are a lot of ways to take the game from there, and really opens the world up to the PC's playing. The pressure from many of the Sorcerer Kings is gone, but the thought of sorcerer kings returning from the dead is a very real possibility IMHO, and presents a unique opportunity to stop it, much as Rikus, Neeval, Sadira, Agis, and Tithian did in the Verdant Passage. Its pretty clear from the 2nd boxed set that Dregoth has his sights set on Raam, not to mention the intrigue that could come out of the puppet king of Draj.
I finally have some time after a tedious semester.
what I did with the PP is that: I read and enjoyed it (well I WAS 15 or so years old...), and then I put it aside and tried to curve my own campaign.
I let the players play freedom, and kalak died, I then let them travel to Urik as the crimson legion says, and after they lost, I let them try my own version of Athas.
years passed, and a second band of adventurers emerged.
I have gone so far from the orthodox dark sun official story line, that I cant state all the details!
but I can send the updated journal of the adventure
(updated last fryday, after the PCs finally managed to destroy the tree of death, a high templar of Draj created using defiled trees of life, and by that managed to poison the world itself, and with it the druids. the epic battle consisted of a PC crashing an airship into a crazed defiled spirit of the land, while druids and defilers fought side by side to kill it... did I mention the two fallen pyreen killers that are after the party ;)I like the flavour of the 1st books but disagree with the stories etc.
yah Kalak and co shouldn't EVER been dealt with much by PCs until waaaaaay down the line.
Dark Sun's "feel" is what makes it so dern wonderful, and the Sorceror Kings etc are large part of that.
Would be like whacking out Saruman in Chapter 5 of LOTR ;)
To kind of paraphrase, Sorceror king to a PC:
"I AM GODZILLA, YOU ARE JAPAN!" :>
I can´t believe Kalak could ignore that Veilled Alliance was ploting against him. Off course he knew.
Kalak let they plot because the plot itself was interesting for him.
If Kalak had finished his transformation alive, undoubtly the other SKs and the Dragon would team up and try to kill him, as THEY DID to Dregoth.
Kalak also let Tithian help the rebelion, and arise to the throne(to have him closely watched and manipulated by Sacha and Wyan).
Also his body disappeared... Kalak pretend to be dead... waiting for the right opportunity to show up in the near future, not as a full dragon but something very near to it.
Hey guys, sorry for the long break, but now I'm back again!
For newer players (aka, my current group) I start pre death of Kalak and run through with his demise. After that, any new campaigns with that group start off shortly after his fall and take some fairly divergent paths from the stories, mostly with the story events occuring off stage if I'm not including them in the campaign.
Originally posted by DisruptorX
A quote from valley of dust and fire "The pcs can not defeat the Dragon" pretty much sums it up. The fact that many sorceror kings are killed by our "heroes" is nothing short of ridiculous. I personally keep sorceror kings in the background, as it makes them more mysterious and godlike(seemingly).
From what I know, no hero has slain a SK or the Dragon. All 4 who died, were killed by Rajaat himself. Abalach-Re and Borys by the slime of the scourge and Andropinis and Tec from his shadow.
Second, who else than the other Sks could re-imprison rajaat, or in the first place stop someone powerful enough to free Rajaat?? IMHO the SKs had to come to Ur Draxa. in this matter they couldn't simply keep themselves in the background.
Third, no PC can dare to challenge the SKs or the dragon. That's the reason I like these books so much. Because the heroes of these novels CAN fight with them. Not all of them of course, just remember Magnus, Caelum, K'kriq or Gaanon. In a campaign I never would encounter a SK, but in the books I do, and that is good so IMHO...
Originally posted by Foo Gen
From what I know, no hero has slain a SK or the Dragon. All 4 who died, were killed by Rajaat himself. Abalach-Re and Borys by the slime of the scourge and Andropinis and Tec from his shadow.
Kalak. Not only was he killed by a group of adventurers, he was killed without the use of any artifacts crafted by Rajaat. Rajaat had absolutely nothing to do with the death of the Tyrant of Tyr.
Second, who else than the other Sks could re-imprison rajaat, or in the first place stop someone powerful enough to free Rajaat?? IMHO the SKs had to come to Ur Draxa. in this matter they couldn't simply keep themselves in the background.
Well, since Sadira has almost their power during the day, she helped. But the other survivign SK's are also helping. You also get the distinct impression, from the Cerulean Storm constantly expanding, that the prison Rajaat was placed back into isn't exactly working as intended.
Third, no PC can dare to challenge the SKs or the dragon. That's the reason I like these books so much. Because the heroes of these novels CAN fight with them. Not all of them of course, just remember Magnus, Caelum, K'kriq or Gaanon. In a campaign I never would encounter a SK, but in the books I do, and that is good so IMHO...
I've had players have their characters meet with SM's. They then also find themselves needing to make new characters. The sheer power of the SM's is yet another reason I've done up the Dragons, Avangions, Sorcerer-Monarch & Champion of Rajaat the way I did - making them a little more powerful than they used to be, while also making it a slower progression to reach the end.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Kalak.
Oops! I completely forgot about him... Yes, Rajaat had nothing to do with his death, but he was in a pretty weak state as he was killed.
The second paragraph (about the SKs who came to Ur Draxa) I only mentioned, because it's a plausible explanation, why they left their cities (The original poster didn't like that fact, that they don't stay in the background).
Sadiras prison isn't as good as the original, but if you remember, the SKs did rebuild the hollow prison (and would have succeeded, if Rajaat's shadow wouldn't have overcome them).
As for sadira "the sun wizard", it is powergaming nonsense and is ignored by me.
-- Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Originally posted by DisruptorX
Foo Gen, thats why I despise the prism pentad. The SKs are cool, the "heroes" are not. Sadira is a hypocritical defiler, Rikus has no personality period. Agis is the only likable one of the bunch. Tithian is a snivelling weasel.
As for sadira "the sun wizard", it is powergaming nonsense and is ignored by me.
I understand your point.
Personally I don't find the SKs cool. They're just a bunch of racists. Granted, they haven't tried to wipe out the remaining races, but one time a racist, always a racists (Same applies to Sadira, she didn't always use defiling magic, but still you call her a defiler).
Still, I find Sadira pretty cool. And as for powergaming, I don't recall the exact words of the text, but IMHO she didn't ask for her powers, she just wanted to know about how to destroy the dragon.
Rikus is just a stubborn mul and not very intelligent, but I wouldn't go that far and say he has no personality...
Tithian is a snivelling weasel! Here I have to agree...
Agis, well, I partly liked him, partly not. Mostly because he is lawful good...
@ Sysane:
Agreed 100%
Originally posted by Foo Gen They're just a bunch of racists. Granted, they haven't tried to wipe out the remaining races, but one time a racist, always a racists
Interesting. Andropinis had elves amongst his patricians. ;)
Originally posted by Pennarin
Interesting. Andropinis had elves amongst his patricians. ;)
Who cares? Andropinis wiped out a whole race. If that isn't racist...
1)Is a different species than elves, and therefore CANNOT be racist against them
2)doesn't actually care one way or another
None of the champions believed rajaat's nonsense, they simply wanted the power he offered them.
-- Sysane, The Terror of Urik
--Sysane, The Terror of Urik
Like Sysane says, there are those that were devoted to Rajaat's ideals, which was among other things that the other races were inferior. Was it in Sacha or Wyan's head that we saw just the depth of the hate he had for pixies? The only thing he had in his head were dead pixies. Now if he hadn't been a racist, his head would have been filled with other stuff than a dead race, since once they're eliminated they are of no importance anymore.
Borys, in what he said on dwarves, seemed to really hate them.
Hamanu had to eliminate the trolls since they had become a menace to humanity, in his opinion, and his task was moraly facilitated by the massacre of his village at their hands. But he seemed to respect them even before first encountering one.
For example, I even didn't know, that Andropinis had to kill the elves...
Where do you get all this information??? Is there any good resource on the net???
(BTW, I only own the DS Campaign Setting Boxed (TSR 2400), the timeline of Athas by Kevin Melka and all five books of the Prism Pentad. I already searched these boards, but I don't find the provided information that satisfactiory, in other words: there are still some missing infos)
As for Andropinis' task, its stated somewhere in the Prism Pentad (i.e. PP) that he once was called Albeorn Slayer of Elves.
You can learn a lot just by getting your hands on the revised edition of the Campaign Setting Box, its just 5 bucks at SVGames.
In fact you can buy everything Dark Sun there for 5 bucks each, in .pdf format.
As for the novels (13 total) its quite easy to find them on Amazon.com or ebay, for about 10 bucks for all, as many board members have experienced first hand.
Originally posted by DisruptorX
Definition of 'racist' would be the belief that one race is superior to another inherently. Andropinis:
1)Is a different species than elves, and therefore CANNOT be racist against them
2)doesn't actually care one way or another
None of the champions believed rajaat's nonsense, they simply wanted the power he offered them.
Actually, I believe that several of the Champions were, in fact, racist. I mean, why would Rajaat choose someone to hunt down all the Dwarves if that individual didn't particularly dislike Dwarves? Borys sure seemed to be rather spiteful against Dwarves himself, at least as presented in the PP. Andropinis, I think, tried to change, and avoid direct contact with Elves if possible. Lailai-Puy, who hunted the Aarakocra actually was trying to invite them into her city, which they avoided, leaving her actual motives in question. Most of the others kinda finished off their personal pet project. Oronis himself felt *very* bad about what he did, and changed his tune totally.
I'd say that yes - some of them were racist. And.... Elves, Humans, etc. are also considered different "races" in this context. A different race doesn't necessarily mean same species. Making that distinction, especially in the context of a roleplaying campaign world is... well.... silly?
However - I'd say that in the light of them discovering Rajaat's plans.... the SM's changed their perspective a little. Stating that once someone's a racist, they are always a racist is... basically stating that people don't change. People do, all the time. Sometimes they fundamentally change, with a radical new look on life. The Dark Sun example is Oronis, who was Keltis, Lizardman Executioner (and very good at what he did, believing to have actually wiped out the race). He didn't find peace when he finished it, only guilt. From that, he changed into Oronis, the Redeemed Dragon-King, now Avangion.
Originally posted by Pennarin
You can read this thread whose quite extensive (83 posts long)
As for Andropinis' task, its stated somewhere in the Prism Pentad (i.e. PP) that he once was called Albeorn Slayer of Elves.
You can learn a lot just by getting your hands on the revised edition of the Campaign Setting Box, its just 5 bucks at SVGames.
In fact you can buy everything Dark Sun there for 5 bucks each, in .pdf format.
As for the novels (13 total) its quite easy to find them on Amazon.com or ebay, for about 10 bucks for all, as many board members have experienced first hand.
Thnx for the SVGames link...
As for the novels... can't order from amazon.com or ebay.com, because shipping costs would be horrendous... and on the german or austrian amazon and ebay I don't find these books... I already looked, quite often in fact...
And like many D&D settings, the original idea for DS is WONDERFUL, but the "official campaign there after", IMHO, sucks.
For example you can't move in the Forgotten Realms without bumping into Harpers and Elmister *pukes* :>
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
I buy 2nd hand books from Amazon.com shipping is usually 5 dollars or so to the UK, so not that bad
I gave it a try and visited amazon.com again. I wasn't that lucky at the check out:
FIrst thing I saw in big red letters:
Important Message
There's a slight problem with your order (see below).
Then below:
*** We're sorry. This item can't be shipped to the country you selected. You can enter a different shipping address above, or you can remove the item from your order by changing its quantity to 0, then clicking the Update button. ***
So no used books for me from amazon.com
Definition of 'racist' would be the belief that one race is superior to another inherently. Andropinis:
1)Is a different species than elves, and therefore CANNOT be racist against them
2)doesn't actually care one way or another
None of the champions believed rajaat's nonsense, they simply wanted the power he offered them.
1) Theyre called races, so a human who hates all elves is a racist. Not to rekindle any flames, but yes, the SK's are essentially a bunch of hitlers.
2) Actually, in the PP, Agis attempts to enter into psychic combat with Wyan... his attack is unsuccessful because inside his mindscape is nothing but endless bodies of the pixies he has eliminated. When he realized that wyan wasnt fighting back and he couldnt hurt him psionically, Wyan explained that his hearts desire was fulflilled millenia ago, so there is no psychological trauma to exploit. I would expect Sacha would be largely the same...
The other SK's don't pursue their genocides any more obviously, as they have discovered new goals. I dont think they could engage in these wars if they werent a little bit bigoted. But its not a priority for them any more.
Originally posted by DisruptorX
I was curious as to whether or not other DSUN players used the changes from this very poorly written book series in their campaigns, or ignored them, as I did.
The first two are decent D&D novels, but the series goes downhill from there and trashes the setting the process. So yeah, there are others out there who ignore the Prism Pentad (or at least, most of it).