Right now, I've got stats worked up for the Penitent One, which is what the Nameless One becomes at the end of Torment. Since he apparently keeps his memories (he remembers the words "what can change the nature of a man?"), I figured that maybe he keeps his abilities too. Well, he could die permanently now, but he'd keep his class levels.
I'm statting the Penitent One out as a Wiz25/Ftr10/Rog10; he is Lawful Good, and carries Celestial Fire and wears the armor of the Transcendent One. (I realize the latter two are not accurate to the endgame, but dammit, he's more interesting this way. *L*) I picture him as kind of a mysterious 'guardian angel' to those poor berks who get caught up in the Blood War; just as it seems like they'll die, the Penitent One appears and saves them, giving them as quick a way as possible back to Sigil. He never speaks, leading to all manner of talk about him back in Sigil; some feel that, given the similarities between his armor and the Lady's blades, and the fact that he never speaks, that he might even be somehow connected to her. Nobody has connected him with the Nameless One yet.
The Penitent One, of course, hopes to eventually redeem whatever the great evil was that the First Incarnation left behind and be allowed into the Upper Planes. How long it will take for him to work off that debt is completely unknown.
If anybody's interested, I can post the stats; I haven't got his equipment figured out yet, though.
-LZ
-LZ
I'd leave him with class levels and memories and equipment (plus the nasty looking mace he picks up in the end video), but still be immortal. That way, no amount of death can save him from an eternity of repentence.
An obscenely powerful immortal penitent being would make a great wildcard in the blood war.
There are a number of interesting things to do with Nameless, and I think most of them involve not being very blatant about who he was. It's not a waste if he's an interesting character.
My favorite interpretation of Nameless' past is that he was Zerthimon, and that's why he was able to make such a convincing fake Circle of Zerthimon for Dak'kon. His ancient crime was splitting his race in two, preventing them from uniting against the illithids and plunging the two peoples into endless war.
I know the Torment novel has a different solution.
-LZ
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
My favorite interpretation of Nameless' past is that he was Zerthimon, and that's why he was able to make such a convincing fake Circle of Zerthimon for Dak'kon. His ancient crime was splitting his race in two, preventing them from uniting against the illithids and plunging the two peoples into endless war.
If the Nameless One was Zerthimon, Dak'kon's Circle of Zerthimon wouldn't be fake. His crimes were signing a contract to fight in the Blood War, then having a night hag from the Grey Wastes tear his mortality from him in a flawed ritual that caused the death of thousands over an indefinite period of time, via the Nameless One's incarnations and the shadows of the Transcendent One.
I'm not sure about the name Penitent One...if you win the game with chaotic evil alignment, your character really doesn't seem that penitent. The Nameless One was directly threatened by the Transcendent One, and through his combat with the Transcendent One, the Nameless One became rather powerful. This power doesn't necessarily have to be used for good. If the Nameless One/Transcendent One combination had mastered mortality, as we see at the end of the game, enough to put life into a group at whim, perhaps this being could take away life just as quickly.
I don't know that the Nameless One can truly be called the Nameless One after the events at the end of Torment. By using the bronze sphere, the Nameless One remembers his name.
Originally posted by RandomPrecision
I don't know that the Nameless One can truly be called the Nameless One after the events at the end of Torment. By using the bronze sphere, the Nameless One remembers his name.
It´s been a long while since I´ve played Torment, but if I remember correctly, the original name of The Nameless One was Yemeth.
If you pay attention, you'll see that throughout the game there are many times that people ask his name, and there's always an option to choose the name Adahn. If you choose this option everytime it's given you the chance, at some point of the game you'll enter the Smoldering Corpse Bar and a npc that looks like The Nameless One will give you a few items. He also says he's an old friend.
Also remember that when he learns his name, he says something like "It's so simple, so small", which would fit the name "Adahn".
But of course, since belief is power, you could have made him up with your mind. Who knows for sure?
Originally posted by RandomPrecision
If the Nameless One was Zerthimon, Dak'kon's Circle of Zerthimon wouldn't be fake.
It was still intended to be. He has no idea where he got his uncanny insight into the githzerai mindset. The memories that allowed him to create the Circle were deeply buried. He certainly meant to lie, even if he didn't quite manage it.
I think the Zerthimon theory ties the story together nicely.
The Blood War contract was, probably, much later.
Originally posted by mrgoat
True, there are a number of occasions when you can lie and say your name is Adahn.
He probably meant to say Adam, which of course means Man, as in "what can change the nature of a man?"
Or maybe Nameless was the first human ever. That's possible, too. I wonder what happened to Eve?
Originally posted by mrgoat
True, there are a number of occasions when you can lie and say your name is Adahn. The first few times at least, it reads: 'Lie: "Adahn"', so I figured that it was just a name the nameless one made up. I noticed a lot more shadows showing up when you keep using the name too, but that could just be coincidence. It is suggested early in the game that you're easy to track if you have a name though, so it could be related to that. Regardless, his name is never revealed for certain. It's open for interpretation.
Actually, if you keep lying by saying your name is Adahn, the belief of people that Adahn exists creates a person in the Smoldering Corpse Bar. With high wisdom (? Maybe intelligence), you can imagine him with a magic item, some copper, etc. Once you convince him that he is just someone you made up, he disappears.
Do not forget that Adahn backwards is "Nhada". Very similar to "Nada" which means "Nihil" or "Nothing". That way, he's saying that he has no name, but being more fancy about it.
Coincidence? Probably!
I really doubt that his real name is Adahn. Like RandomPrecision said, the figure in the bar is a person invented from the belief of so many people that Adahn is a real person who looks just like you. Sort of quirky, because not everybody who uses a false name generates a clone of himself somewhere in the planes. Or does he? The Cadence works in mysterious ways...
And as for his name being "something so small and simple," they mean that the name itself is a small thing to know, and a simple thing to know, but it gives him peace of mind and strengthens his resolve, not that the name is a short one.
Originally posted by Factol Rhys
Sort of quirky, because not everybody who uses a false name generates a clone of himself somewhere in the planes. Or does he?
It's based on how many people believe there is an Adahn. In my understanding of Planescape, everything in the Outer Planes is created, or destroyed, by belief. If some random person in the planes went around saying his/her name was Bobadiah, a person called Bobadiah would probably appear somewhere. The fact that Adahn is created in a place easily accessible to the Nameless One is somewhat of an odd coincidence, however.
Originally posted by Merganser86
I'm statting the Penitent One out as a Wiz25/Ftr10/Rog10; he is Lawful Good, and carries Celestial Fire and wears the armor of the Transcendent One. (I realize the latter two are not accurate to the endgame, but dammit, he's more interesting this way. *L*) I picture him as kind of a mysterious 'guardian angel' to those poor berks who get caught up in the Blood War; just as it seems like they'll die, the Penitent One appears and saves them, giving them as quick a way as possible back to Sigil. He never speaks, leading to all manner of talk about him back in Sigil; some feel that, given the similarities between his armor and the Lady's blades, and the fact that he never speaks, that he might even be somehow connected to her. Nobody has connected him with the Nameless One yet.
Granted, it's your campaign and it involves what you want to do with the Nameless One. (Like many before me can attest, depending on how you played him - he may or may not be Penitent or even LG.) I 'd say the same applies to his classes, but I thought I'd handle that one differently.
Frankly, a 45th level character seems extremely high for where we left off with him. To my recollection, TNO didn't regain all the wisdom and experience from his earlier lives when he regained his mortality. Rather, he simply regained his mortality and went off to finish his contract in the Blood War.
I do like the idea of him being a survivor in the Blood War, but it seems that he'd likely have assumed more fighter levels to do so. (But that's just me.) In any event, I'd recommend you shy away from godhood, which is what you've basically made him. Rather, focus on him simply becoming a force to be reckoned with by living out the remainder of his existence in the Planes of the Blood War.
But again, your version of him - your campaign.
If you assume the Nameless One defeated the Transcendent One in single combat, this wouldn't apply. It is possible to remember how to raise the dead in this manner (much greater than your original raise dead ability from Deionarra) without merging with the Transcendent One, and defeat him with one other character, or your entire party, if you have high charisma. The survival of party members other than the Nameless One might also provide ideas for NPC's. Dak'kon in particular seems as if he would forge some legend for himself in the future beyond the Fortress of Regrets.
As for the Massive Levels, well, my Nameless One topped out as a level... 23, I think it was, Mage, with about five or six levels in Rogue and Fighter each as well. (Of course, this was under 2nd Edition game rules, so he couldn't be a Fighter/Rogue/Wizard...) Considering that he gains incredible amounts of XP from realizing the secret of the Bronze Sphere (like, ten levels' worth), I don't think it's stretching it all that far to assume merging with his mortality is going to bestow hellza experience on him.
As for his other companions, I have an abiding love for Dak'kon; actually, I though that maybe I'd use him as an NPC figure if I ever ran this game. They'd probably meet him and the Penitent One at completely different points and gradually Dak'kon would realize who this "angel of the Lower Planes" was.
-LZ
-LZ
Originally posted by leopardmessiah
Considering the Nameless One's identity, remember that his crime was enough that it made all the crimes of the other incarnations (who were pretty mean buggers) pale in insignificance (IIRC, it was something about a drop in the ocean?). So he'd have to be pretty evil, Zerthimon doesn't really cut it, Adam is a good one though, although I always thought of him as Caine (cos Caine is seen as evil and because there was no record of his death). Also the removing his mortality thing is definately NOT his sin, as he did it so he'd have enough time to repent (i.e.: he'd already commited the sins by that point).
Actually, I thought that the hag's removal of his mortality was a means by which he could avoid the end note on his contract with the devil, i.e., upon death, his soul would go to fight the Blood War, or something like that. (It's been a while since I played!)
An Invalidation of the Nameless Zerthimon theory
You can think the Character Seet is not acurrate. But In Morte's Sheet don't indicate his race. If was wanted to create a mystery of Nameless One's Race It shoud be done
I Did't Readed Torment Romance, (it's difficult to buy in my country)If it explain something more please tell me.
The Unbroken Circle is not a lie. The Pratical Incarnation only don't belive in it at all, but give it to Da'kon becouse he Knew the power of belif, so he gave it to the githzerai for mend his divided mind. Pratical Incarnation used the teachings of Zerthmon becouse it is the kind of thing that a githzerai would focuses in
Probably the Pratical Incarnation has something in the Shara'kt'lor incident...
I can't write more for now
see you later
The book's explainations are to be taken with a grain of salt. A great deal of it doesn't follow the game at all (Annah being a Were-rat, TNO name is Thane, The Transendent One looks like TNO, TNO became immortal to avoid the Blood war, etc). It's a good book otherwise, just don't compare it to the game...
Originally posted by Factol Rowan Darkwood
The Character Sheet of Nameless One says that he is Human
An Invalidation of the Nameless Zerthimon theory
But according to most sources, the followers of Gith originally were human. They probably remained mostly human for millennia after Zerthimon split the race.
And yeah, I think Zerthimon's crime - betraying his people and splitting his race in two so that they would fight one another in endless civil war instead of defeating their real enemies, the illithids - was exactly big enough to qualify for Torment's description of it. It literally "shattered the planes" in the sense that it shattered a major planar race, pitting the major humanoids of two infinities against one another for eternity. The carnage and bloodshed and hatred created by the Edict of the Two Skies is incalculable, and the suffering caused by the mind flayers (who would, had Gith had her way, been made extinct) in the subsequent epochs is more than equal to even that.
This was the secret that Nameless knew and Dak'kon found too disturbing to contemplate - that Zerthimon was wrong in leading the People away from Gith, epically, tragically wrong.
Considering that Zerthimon saved roughly half of the Gith people from becoming the Githyanki, instead leading them to their society as the Githzerai, I don't think we can really say Zerthimon did anything evil. The never ending war would still have happened, it just would have been the entire Gith race versus the mind flayers. As it is, at least some of the descendents of the Gith aren't wholly evil.
-LZ
Sapien sapiens before the coming of the illithid overlords.EDIT: For the love of Pete, its a freaking genus. Bah.
Originally posted by Saurstalk
I thought that the origins of the Gith were that they were "human-like," not "human." As such, I place them more as a humanoid race, like elves, dwarves or halflings, who are "human-like" rather than of "human" ancestry.
Accounts differ. Bruce Cordell sort of implies that the Gith Forerunners might have been something other than human, but everything else says something like what the Planescape Monstrous Compendium did:
"Sages believe they were once humans that were captured by mind flayers to serve as slaves and cattle. The mind flayers treated their human slaves cruelly and the people harbored their hatred but could not summon the might necessary to break free. So they waited for many years, developing their powers in secret and waiting for an opportunity to strike out against their masters. Finally a woman of power came forth among them, a deliverer by the name of Gith."
and
"The githzerai are originally an offspring of a race of humans that were freed from slavery under mind flayers by a great woman warrior named Gith. These men and women did not, however, choose to follow Gith's ways after they revolted against the slavers."
So Gith and Zerthimon would have been human, either
sapiens sapiens or sapiens superior like in the X-Men since they have psionics and so forth.Edit: Ha! Censorship is hilarious.
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
But according to most sources, the followers of Gith originally were human. They probably remained mostly human for millennia after Zerthimon split the race.
I think they were laying eggs by the time that they revolted. I've always been under the impression that the big gap between humankind and githkind (as compared to the gap between 'zerai and 'yanki) was because the illithids had done significant selective breeding before the uprising.
Originally posted by Sildatorak
I think they were laying eggs by the time that they revolted. I've always been under the impression that the big gap between humankind and githkind (as compared to the gap between 'zerai and 'yanki) was because the illithids had done significant selective breeding before the uprising.
I'm 90% certain that the egg-laying thing is a result of interbreeding between between the githyanki and their red dragon allies (mentioned in Polyhedron #59). The githyanki look pretty reptillian, but the githzerai don't. And in any case, oviparous creatures do poorly in Limbo - miniflux means that eggshells tend to transform into fire or felt or slime. That's why slaadi lay their eggs inside living bodies.
It's unclear how much the illithids altered their slaves, or if those alterations bred true. There were probably a lot of practical alterations - some superstrong slaves for lifting things, and some slaves with superhuge brains for better eating, some tentacled slaves for better grabbing of objects, some invisible slaves for better spying. Most of them were probably left alone, since humans already make really great slaves. Like I say above, I assume it was enough to make some of them mutants in the x-men sense, but not enough to make them inhuman. It's possible that most of the humans on the Material Plane are the descendents of slaves taken during the Illithid Imperium, and the githyanki and 'zerai are only the ones who left the plane afterwards.
Regardless, Zerthimon and Gith would have thought of themselves as human. It was Gith who made a people out of what had previously been an unassociated group of thralls spread among many worlds.
The Pentient One
Angel of the Lower Planes, The Absolution, Perfuga
Unique Entity 20HD Outsider, 15th level wizard, 10 fighter, 5 rouge
Mediumsize Outsider
Hit Dice:20d8+15d4+10d10+5d6+250(510hp)
Initiative+7(+3 dex+4Imprv. init)
Speed:30 ft, fly 90 ft (good)
Armor Class:45 (10+13 armor, +13natural, +3dex, +2deflection, +4insight)
Base Attack/Grapple+40/+45
Attack: Celestial Fire +50 (3d6+13+3d6 fire+2d6 holy)
Full Attack: Celestial Fire +50/45/40/35 (3d6+13+3d6 fire+2d6 holy)
Space/Reach5ft/5ft
Special Attacks:Celestial Fire, Gaze of Anguish, Spell-like abilities, Power of Belief
Special Qualities:DR 15/mithril, Proxy of the Planes
Saves:Fort +32, Ref +30, Will +34
abilities:Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 25, Cha 25
SkillsBluff+60, Concentration+68, Craft(trapmaking)+32, Decipher Script+32, Diplomacy+60, Disable Device+32, Gather Info+60, Intimidate+32, Knowledge(arcana)+59, Knowledge(Planes)+31, Sense Motive+60, Spellcraft+59
Feats Trustworthy(B), Imprv. initative, run, enlarge spell, extend spell, maximize spell, dark speech, widen spell, words of creation-Wizard Bonus Feats-scribe scroll, quicken spell, heighten spell, still spell-Fighter Bonus Feats-power attack, cleave, great cleave, weapon focus(warmace), weapon specialization(warmace), greater weapon focus(warmace)
Epic FeatsArmor Skin(x3), Epic Prowess(x5) Epic Skill Focus(concentration), Epic Spell casting, Improved Spell capacity
environment:any Carceri
organizationsolitary and converts
Challenge Rating:38
treasurepossessions
alignment:Lawful Good in behavior, but registers as Neutral evil for the purpose of spells
advancementby character class
The figure before you appears wholly unique on these blasted plains. His skin, where not protected by a strange, vine like armor, is heavily scarred and covered in powerfully enchanted tattoos. In his left hand rests a viscously edged warmace that sheds an azure radiance from it’s business end. His physical description is not what sets him apart. What makes him unique are his actions. He stands beckoning towards a portal leading back to your home plane. This miraculous stranger is doing the impossible, getting you out of the Blood War.
The Absolution, as he’s known to various planewalkers and petitioners of the lower planes, is an enigma of the cosmos, a seemingly virtuous figure amidst the carnage of the Blood War. His origin, like that of many planar mythos, is shrouded in mystery. Perfuga has confounded numerous powers of Carceri in his exploits, freeing thousands of mortal mercenaries from the vices of the war, even acting as the springboard for 2 risen fiends. The very mention of his name has sent fiendish generals into fits of rage .
While clearly hated by the denizens of the lower planes, it is still unclear uncertain if he is celestial. In fact many are apt to point out that on use of a detection spell (not that there are many opportunities for such a thing) he registers as evil. The Penitent One himself remains as silent on this matter as he is on all others, as he has never been known to speak to any but the dead. This silence, and the bladed nature of his armor have caused some to link him to the Lady of Pain, though a real connection is currently unproven. Other sources pin him as a risen yugoloth or an elaborate illusion created by Mephistopholies in an effort to get a hold in that plane. Most graybeards that study him have a much stranger view, that the so called Angel of the Lower Planes is a former mortal wizard atoning for past sins. This is however the most bizarre theory, a wholly radical concept. That even Carceri could have so human a concept as pity.
Combat:The Absolution would rather to stay out of combat, sometimes floating above a battle for days at a time before making his move. Only when an innocent is threatened, or during those incredibly rare circumstances when he witnesses a fiend capable of falling, does he strike out against the blood war, playing to his own side in the unending battle. Though powerful, The Penitent One never uses his gaze without absolute reason. After a battle in which he was forced to kill, he has been known to speak with whatever sentient he had slain, attempting to redeem the individual even after they have reached their final rest. Though the absolution has met with little success, his personal crusade continues.
Celestial Fire: Though his mace appears as only a powerfully enchanted weapon, the warmace is a spirit of Celestia all it’s own, capable of dealing much more damage then those instruments of war fashioned only of magic and iron. Celestial Fire is formed and defined by it’s wielders belief, shaping itself into mithril, cold iron, silver, or adamant on command of it’s holder. In addition it may change it’s type according to it’s users proficiencies, though it’s base damage remains the same. Because of it’s heavenly nature, Celestial Fire may only be wielded by one who is both lawful and good.
Gaze of Anguish: To look upon the gaze of the Absolution is to peer into his very essence, a soul so full of regret and torment that has caused even the blackest fiends to fall weeping and guilty for their shame. It is this overwhelming regret that has sparked the use of his most popular title, Penitent One, though none but he knows his true name. At will he may direct his gaze against anyone in his range of sight, who must succeed at a will save (DC-42) or become fascinated as per the spell cast by a 35th level sorcerer. Additionally at the targets option they may receive the full effects of an atonement spell. The quest for such a redemption is always a period of time serving the Penitent One.
The Power of Belief: Belief can change the nature of a man. Upon the completion of a minutes worth of meditation Perfuga may use his will to change the very nature of reality. This works in the same way as wish, except there is no XP penalty. In order to invoke this ability the Absolution must succeed at a concentration check (dc-55) or at a DC of 65 if he wishes to use his ability as a free action. Each subsequent use of this power in the same weed invokes a +4 to the DC. The Penitent One may never use this ability for self-service. (IE-wishing for wealth, ability score increases, etc.)
Spell Casting-The Penitent One casts and receives spells as a level 35 wizard (his HD act as virtual wizard levels)
Spell-like abilities-Speak w/dead at will, raise dead 3/day
Proxy of the Planes: Although not a true petitioner, the Penitent One shares many of their qualities. He is bound to Carceri and unable to leave it, immune to alignment traits of the plane, and resurrected by the plane itself upon death. This is perhaps the most controversial aspect of Perfuga, as Carceri itself seems unwilling to draw in it’s petitioner. Whether this is because the plane is unwilling to loose it’s prized possession, the command of some crazed Baernaloth, or that sympathy might be found even in the heart of darkness is an issue of obvious planar importance.
Why'd you choose Carceri? I would have sworn that at the end of the game he was in Baator. (I would personally claim that it's any Lower Plane, myself, excluding Acheron and Pandemonium.)
-LZ
I don't think we'll ever what the first incarnation did that was truely so horrible. Yes, his being Zerthomon is a good theory, but there are plenty other good theoryies as well. The people on GameFAQ Planscape torment board theorized that he started the blood war on his catography mission. Others say he was the one who formed the Pillar of Skulls. its even been theorized that he was directly responcible for putting the Lady in power (though thats screed if I ever heard it). I suppose the only way we'll ever find out is by asking him.
Originally posted by Corwyn Burlisk
As for his crimes, the game said he created Ignus, and the little pyro destroyed a ward before he was stopped. While thats not bad enough to suffer the kind of torment its a start, and considering Ignus was just one of his apprentices, well one can get the idea of the thousands of crimes he commited during his mortal life.
The Practical Incarnation was the one who tought Ignus about flames and things that burn, after the young Ignus started havind dreams about burning. The Practical Incarnation was not the first. That was the so-called Good Incarnation.
Funny, how the Good Incarnation is named that way, since it was he who commited te crime so very foul that he needed the lifetime of an immortal to make up for it: all of his other crimes were like tiny dropw in an entire ocean. Seems as though regret can really change the nature of a man.
*Spoiler-meeting with the "practical" incarnation you can mention Ignus and he'll say, in short, "Eh?" Don't believe me? Go ahead, go back to the crystal and talk to your self, try it, it's been so long since I've had the opportunity to gloat.*
On a related note the good incarnations name change was ironic although a little unsuprising, on the outer belief can change everything. Perhaps even the way you view yourself.
Originally posted by Merganser86
Considering that Zerthimon saved roughly half of the Gith people from becoming the Githyanki, instead leading them to their society as the Githzerai, I don't think we can really say Zerthimon did anything evil. The never ending war would still have happened, it just would have been the entire Gith race versus the mind flayers. As it is, at least some of the descendents of the Gith aren't wholly evil.
-LZ
The Lich Queen's evil hold over the githyanki is probably mostly due to the eternal war they fight.
If the githyanki and githzerai had been united, there would have been no eternal war because they could have won it. Seperated, the conflict between gith and illithid is a stalemate, with none of the three races gaining an upper hand. Imagine what the gith could do together, without the resource-draining internal war.
By seperating the gith species, Zerthimon turned what was a winnable war into two unwinnable ones, reinforced what would have otherwise been a very tenuous dictatorship over the freedom-loving githyanki, and in other ways did what the illithids wanted him to do.
So the bloody conflict betwen 'zerai and 'yanki is obviously Zerthimon's fault. The continuing bloody conflict between gith and mind flayer is indirectly his fault. The reign of the Vlaakiths is also indirectly his fault. Whether it was a deliberate evil brought on by cowardice or deliberate surrender to his former masters or a completely innocent mistake, I can see why he may have sought redemption.
Originally posted by Corwyn Burlisk
*Spoiler-meeting with the "practical" incarnation you can mention Ignus and he'll say, in short, "Eh?" Don't believe me? Go ahead, go back to the crystal and talk to your self, try it, it's been so long since I've had the opportunity to gloat.*
"Ignus?" The man stares at you, then frowns. "Is that a name? Who in the hells are you talking about?
Sorry, my bad. Even so, teaching Ignus of flames and burning could not have been such a crime. Sure, he torched some buildings and people, but it couldn't possibly be the crime the Good Incarnation spoke of.
And I agree that the Nameless One is (was?) not Zerthimon.
Because of this flaw, no matter how good a given incarnation was, his indirect slaughter of innocents doomed him to the lower planes in the end. But, you all knew all of this already.
The transcendent one flat out says that he has retained all of the nameless one's incarnations experiences and memories, IIRC, meaning that when they merged, the Nameless one likely gained massive levels. Since he seemed to, given the ending (An ending that looked to be taking place in the Gray Wastes, given the tower, but red somehow), keep his body and memories, he very well could be a speck of humanity, trapped in the never-ending bloodwar because of actions long past.
Originally posted by AlexBurel
Whether or not is it, TNO is NOT Zerthamon. It is a well-documented fact that in the Gith civil war, Zerthamon was killed and his body destroyed. If he had escaped Gith would have known about it and undoubtibly spared no expense to have him wiped off the map.
There's no documentation of the event; only legends going back to the most ancient of days. The Illithiad said the illithid empire fell "Past all knowledge of present worlds, before the crowning of Ra, when the Outer Planes were yet in flux, and while the elemental planes remained untarnished by counter-contamination."
Those myths that remain agree that Zerthimon fell in the last battle (although they say nothing about the condition of his body). If instead he fled in his shame, even faked his death in his cowardice, and then sold his mortality and memories to a night hag in a vain attempt to delay his eventual damnation who would know? Neither Gith nor Vlaakith had any infalliable way to determine the status of those who have transcended any traditional definition of life and death. Perhaps a contact outer planes spell might have given some hint, or perhaps the loss of his ability to die put him beyond even the ken of gods. Regardless, the children of gith care nothing for deities and congress with them as little as possible.
Perhaps Zerthimon had his mortality stripped from him before the last battle, and he did die. And he was reborn the next day, entirely ignorant of what had transpired before.
I champion this theory only because it's the most interesting one. The Torment novel's idea that he was a heroic nobody who sacrificed him for his middling Prime village is pretty vanilla in comparison. There is some support for the Zerthimon theory, and nothing to disprove it. It's clear that whatever his crime was, it was committed before he visited Ravel; it was, in fact, the reason for his bargain with the Gray Sister. The torment he visited on the planes afterwards was, no matter how severe, only a bitterly ironic frosting on the cake of his culpibility.
Originally posted by Kakabel
But Ignus was created before TNO mortality was stripped. It's mentioned often enough (though I can't remember much of the actual evidence) that TNO was a mage even before he was TNO.
I'm pretty sure Ignus was a creation of one of the Nameless One's many alter egos, not nearly the first, but admittedly some centuries ago. That's my recollection.
If Zerthimon was like the zerths he inspired (like Dak'kon), he was some kind of fighter/mage.
Originally posted by Kakabel
But Ignus was created before TNO mortality was stripped. It's mentioned often enough (though I can't remember much of the actual evidence) that TNO was a mage even before he was TNO.
I don't think it's right. TNO might have teached Ignus but no more than one or two incarnations (memories wise) from the actual.
Why? Because of Drusilla, his lover. She says Ignus was the best mage who ever came out from the Hive, speaking as if she saw his rise and fall. And in the game she is depicted as a middle-age woman.
My two coppers.
I'm not sure which of the three incarnations trained Ignus. It doesn't seem like the paranoid one from memories, and the practical one does'nt know the name. It seems likely that the training of Ignus was an act by the good incarnation gone horribly wrong. That doesn't necessarily mean that it occoured pre-immortality, though.
Shouldn't TNO already be a petitioner, though (with some modifications, for one, he retains his memories)? He does die at the end of the game.
Originally posted by Skikka
I'm pretty sure that the Nameless One goes to Baator. The weapon he picks up during the ending looks like the Baatorian mace from the game.
Maybe because there is a battle being fought. Y´know, there are Baatezu and Tanar´ri there. That doesn´t mean that the plane has te be Baator. Also, looked like a pretty big battle, so I guess it´d be on one of the lower planes of Conflict.
Originally posted by Skikka
I'm not sure which of the three incarnations trained Ignus. It doesn't seem like the paranoid one from memories, and the practical one does'nt know the name. It seems likely that the training of Ignus was an act by the good incarnation gone horribly wrong. That doesn't necessarily mean that it occoured pre-immortality, though.
Yes it does. As soon as the Good Incarnation receives his immortality, Ravel kills him, and he loses his memories. And there were far more incarnation then just the three that you meet in the Fortress. Don´t remember why these three surface in your thoughts, exactly. Perhaps that they were the most powerful incarnations.
As to the Drussila problem, I don't remember her mentioning that they ever met, only that she was his lover. Standing by this mysterious beings side, becomming obsessed with the ash of his skin and power of his flames. Definatley planescapish.
The shelfish incarnation definatley knew nothing of Ignus. The paranoid one didn't have the ability to teach Ignus. IMO this leaves only the "good" incarnation to be Ignus's true master. Of course this leaves problems too. Like the fire that supposedly killed Deonirra. Yes I know this was a lie by practical one, but the event must have taken place during thier time to be able to use it as a coverup story. Course then you could say that his age shouldn't matter since by this time Ignus is a force of nature. This argument is as provable as trying to decipher the first incarnations true name.
Ahh, the joys of an open game.
Now as to why Carceri? Why not a petitioner? Personal preference really. The Nameless One (after immortatlity) is a being representing caging himself, in sins and actions he did not commit but is trapped within. Carceri just presented a little irony I thougth I'd take advantage of. Not to mention as Elethíus mentions there are devils fighting demons down there, and a canny blood would know that the blood war has never gone so far as to breach the first level of Hell or Abyss. And he is a petitioner, only his belief and experience gained throughout his innumerable lifetimes has caused him go well beyond the scope of a simple petitioner. It's like having a hero deity (DVR0) become a latern archon when it dies. It's far too powerful to simply vanish in the gales of fate.
And the mace? Eh, ...well I just thought it sounded cool. Artistic liscence and all that jazz.
first there have been hundreds of incarnations(one for every shadow i met alot of bloody shadows >.>)thus any of the recent ones could have taught ingus,the fact ingus actully embraces drusilla makes me believe he did know her.he is a crazy sort thus he wouldnt really care she burnt.
second i like the zerthimon theory,and thus shall be useing it.my PS game is post torment but it hasnt affected much.though the pcs could of course go to the brothel....
third hes a paragon human with levels in wizard,fighter and rogue,with a bonus rassurection 3/day but the target dosent lose a level there done.i dont really need to worry about the exact level,though 25,10,10 prolly is more than enough.20,10,10 is all you really need.
Originally posted by Skikka
I'm pretty sure that the Nameless One goes to Baator. The weapon he picks up during the ending looks like the Baatorian mace from the game.
On the horizon on the right side (last scene of the outro) there is something that looks like a huge spine to me. So, perhaps this is Khin Oin, the Wasting Tower, which stands on Oinos, one of the layers of The Gray Waste.
"The Nameless One is not Zerthimon, and the Nameless One's "true name" is never revealed in the game - even I don't know who he truly is.
Hope this helps,
Chris"
Dave Maldonado, another designer on Torment;
"I don't know TNO's true name; as I understand it (and as Chris stated), it doesn't exist in any official capacity (and as such it certainly isn't Adahn, Yemeth, etc.).
Really.
-- Dave"
I also onced asked Dave Maldonado if the plane TNO ends up on is the Grey Waste because of Khin-Oin being in the background, and this is what he said;
"the ending scene needed a background image, the artist (Brian Menze) was informed of such, the artist flipped through the books for lower planes art reference, saw the tower, digged it, and painted it on up. Like in much (all? heh) of human thought and action, justification came afterwards -- we know the BW spills into the Gray Waste, so it was cool to leave in. There's no larger/Ravel connection or anything going on there; that's just what the artist chose to paint."
Originally posted by Kakabel
But Ignus was created before TNO mortality was stripped.
This is never said anywhere in the game. And as Torquemada mentioned, Drusilla is still alive. So is Cinder, the man in the Lower Ward Marketplace who was burnt when Ignus burned down the Alley of Dangerous Angles.
Originally posted by Corwyn Burlisk
Like the fire that supposedly killed Deonirra. Yes I know this was a lie by practical one, but the event must have taken place during thier time to be able to use it as a coverup story.
What? The Practical Incarnation never says anything about a fire killing Deionarra, truthfully or as a cover-up. All Deionarra's father knew was that she was dead, he didn't know why. The Practical Incarnation died at the same time as Deionarra as well, in the Fortress, so he could hardly have given any cover-up story for her death.
The Paranoid Incarnation set the fire in Iannis' place to destroy the legacy the Practical Incarnation left there.
Originally posted by Yceman
If you choose this option everytime it's given you the chance, at some point of the game you'll enter the Smoldering Corpse Bar and a npc that looks like The Nameless One will give you a few items.
No, the Adahn that you can meet in the Smoldering Corpse Bar just looks like a generic Hive Dweller.
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
Or maybe Nameless was the first human ever.
You can get a memory of when TNO met Ravel for the first time (and thus, when he was mortal) in which he was leading an army of men.
Originally posted by Saurstalk
Actually, I thought that the hag's removal of his mortality was a means by which he could avoid the end note on his contract with the devil
Nameless: "But why - I have so many questions that YOU can answer. Why did we become immortal? Why?"
Good Incarnation: "Because if we die, *truly* die..." The incarnation looks up at you, and his eyes are like steel. "Death's kingdom will *not* be paradise, not for us. If you spoke to these others that were here, know that a fraction of the evil of their lives is but a drop of water compared to the evil of mine. That life, that one life, even *without* the thousands of others, has given a seat in the Lower Planes for eternity."
Nameless: "But you seem so much... calmer. More well-intentioned."
Good Incarnation: "I became that way, yes. Because for me..." His voice takes on a strange echo. "It is *regret* that may change the nature of a man." He sighs. "But it was too late. I was already damned."
"I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
Nameless: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
Good Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."
Originally posted by ripvanwormer
This was the secret that Nameless knew and Dak'kon found too disturbing to contemplate - that Zerthimon was wrong in leading the People away from Gith, epically, tragically wrong.
The whole point of the 7th and 8th Circles is that Zerthimon did the right thing, for the right reasons, when he made the Pronouncement of Two Skies. When you explain this to Dak'kon he regains his faith, as he previously feared Zerthimon did it while under the influence of the Illithids in order to divide the rebelling Gith.