And I happen upon another matter in which I'm clueless.
What can you tell me about the Orcish Euroz Clan and what books are they detailed in if any?
Scott
There were also other orc clan names taken from humanoid names. The clans from ItE that I can remember off the top of my head are:
Euroz (maybe is was Uroz) - barbarian type orcs
Kelbit -
Kazgund- pig faced orcs, slightly smarter than average orc
ennyways, look in "Iuz the Evil".
He briefly mentioned the Euroz Clan in Ivid the Undying as well, which is the reason I'm seeking info, sorta..
And besides.. 'Euroz' means 'Orc' in which language and dialect of the vastness of Greyhawk languages? I'll assume its ancient Flan which is hardly spoken anymore even if you're campaign is set in the pre-wars era.
Scott
Perhaps the flan called orcs they knew, the Euroz, which just so happened to be a clan of the flanaess. Further along other orcs came into the known lands under different banners and names (by the flan or otherwise.)
Scott
Interesting.
Originally posted by abysslin
Perhaps it was ingenuity.
Perhaps the flan called orcs they knew, the Euroz, which just so happened to be a clan of the flanaess. Further along other orcs came into the known lands under different banners and names (by the flan or otherwise.)
I'd just rather not mold my Greyhawk around somebody elses mistakes.
Sargent is probably the biggest cause of friction between Gygax, and post-Gygax Greyhawk. In addition to the lack of familiarity with the setting he displayed, he failed to capture the feel and direction of the original body of work.
If everything pre-Sargent was removed, I think his work stands up pretty good on it's own, but the setting was there, and when you consider that he was supposed to be continuing Greyhawk, and not reinventing it, I'd have to say he was not a good Greyhawk author.
Scott
The exact text I was referring to is...
The native forest orcs, a sub-tribe of the Euroz who call themselves the Eurok, have no love for those of their kind who have defected to the service of Aerdy rulers.
This can be taken in two ways.
1. "a sub-tribe of the Euroz" could be interpreted as meaning the "Euroz" is a large tribe (or clan) with sub-denominations, the Eurok in this case.
So, in this instance, "Eurok" are a smaller tribe of a larger tribe, the "Euroz."
2. "a sub-tribe of the Euroz" could be interpreted as meaning the "Euroz" as the orc race as a whole with sub-denominations, the Eurok in this case.
So, in this instance, "Eurok" are a tribe of the orcish (Euroz) race as a whole.
What a headache. Researching canonical material for an article you want to write and still stay within the canonical boundaries can be a real pain.
EDIT: I'm not ignoring you Scott and I do value your insight, but you are being counter-productive to my question. I'm not asking if Sargent was a good or bad writer.
I need to find where this branch off happened, forming a "Euroz" clan, if indeed it did. If Sargent clearly intended that the "Euroz" were a seperate tribe (or clan), then I'll have to accept that as canonical since it appears in official works, and write my content accordingly.
Now, I'm not so sure that is the case as my above blabbing may point to.
Originally posted by abysslin
...then I'll have to accept that as canonical since it appears in official works, and write my content accordingly.[/i]
The way it should be!
........................................Omote
For instance Egg of Coot, spaceships, the land beyond the magic mirror. The last was not so horrible as it was a another take on a childhood story. Zagyg having the ability to trap all those gods in a castle without even being a god himself. Boccob has a tremendous amount of power and I'm sure he would of had the most difficult of times trapping them. A very munchkin NPC if I do say so myself.
While the above is my opinion, I have found that many people take this as good story telling. I for one found it to be munchkin!
Sargent in my opinion fixed as much as he could about the setting. While I am not opposed to Blackmoor existing in GH, we must remember this was originally meant to be a game world of its own.
So while I must thank Gygax for creating the game we all know and love,I do have issues with some of his creations. It doesn't make him a bad author.
Abysslin, we do have a conundrum here. While in from the Ashes Euroz are clearly stated as flan for Orc. While I no longer have or posses Iuz the Evil I do believe that a tribe of Euroz was referred too as meaning a tribe of Orcs exist in blah..blah.. blah.. With reddish skin and they tend to be stronger then most Orcs and are less likely to turn on their leaders.
The above is simply an example and not a direct quote from that source.
Orcs 135,000
Celbits 44,000
Kazgund 31,000
Jebli 29,000
Urzun 21,000
Minor tribes 10,000
Goblins 20,000
Hobgoblins 4000
Gnolls 1000
Nowhere there does it list Euroz as an orc tribe. Urzun and Kazgund seem perfectly fien to use. OTOH, the LGG terms Celbits as KOBOLDS and Jebli as GOBLINS. This would certainly conflict because ItE goes on to say Celbits are the largest tribe in Iuz and comprise 90% of his armies. A kobold army? I think not. The Jebli would almost be passable for an error if not for the later listing of 20,000 goblins.
My thoughts. The terms, Euroz, Celbit, Jebli, etc were certainly referenced by EGG, but never definitively explained before Sargent wrote his material. Since then in our 'up to date' gazetteer, the names have been corrected we can only assume to the way EGG intended.
Simple fix...create two new orc tribe names for them or fold the incorrect names into the Urzun/Kazgund tribes.
Another thought on canon. If you dismiss one part of a writers' publication then you have to dismiss the whole work. To throw out ItE or FtA loses alot of development that spawned further development in today's Greyhawk.
Change the names of orcish tribal groups as written in previous products, or adjust the numbers of said tribes by combining tribes, or some combination of both, as Mortellan suggested.
I agree with Argon, regarding the evolution of Greyhawk. Nicely stated, mate. I appreciate the efforts of Mr. Sargeant smoothing out Gygaxian concepts.
Anyway, interesting discussion.
I don't think you need to try to iron out the cannonical problems that have been mentioned here, Abyss. Option #2 that you listed in your post is probably the best compromise between Scotty's point and Sargent's written material.
So from that perspective, it seems like the Eurok are pretty much in your hands to develop. For my two coppers, just because the Eurok don't like the other orc tribes that have allied with the Aerdi, doesn't necessarily make them a good race. They might see themselves like the Grugach, a more pure strain of orc that doesn't deign to serve puny humans.
-wn
Originally posted by mortellan
My thoughts. The terms, Euroz, Celbit, Jebli, etc were certainly referenced by EGG, but never definitively explained before Sargent wrote his material. Since then in our 'up to date' gazetteer, the names have been corrected we can only assume to the way EGG intended.
The names of the various humanoids in flannish were in the first Greyhawk Folio released in 1980, so Carl most likely knew about them. Whether from that point he made a mistake, or purposefully called the Orc tribes after other humanoid names, much the way a football team would call themselves the "wolverines" or a hockey team would call themselves "the mighty ducks", or even say an Eskimo tribe calling themselves the "elk tribe".
In defense of Carl, he was actually following many precedents that Gygax himself set in his articles on Greyhawk in Dragon magazine, and later in the extant Gord novels. I feel he kept the theme of Greyhawk better than any since, and to some extent, prior.
abysslin, being that the tribes of Iuz are far and away from the tribes of the former Great Kingdom, I would go with your second solution too.
However, for sake of compromise since there are now two schools of thought, why can't you just say that the Euroz are both a clan AND the general term for orcs. Maybe there is one clan of orcs that think they are the epitomy of all orcish ideals and refer to themselves as THE orcs thus calling their clan the Euroz.
I could almost see the Suloise doing the same thing by calling themselves THE humans since they feel their race is the superior of the species.
Thoughts?
I support the idea of Euroz as the general word for Orcs and as a particular tribe in this view.
By the way, the picture of the Goblin in the v.3.5 MM looks like a French person, LMAO. C'este le vu!
Orc tribes went from Death Moon, Vile Rune, Rotting Eye, etc. to Kazgund, Urzun, Jebli , etc. It seemed Carl suffered from Tolkien-envy, Philidor the Blue is another manifestation.
Little mistakes like Euroz and Jebli for Orc tribe names can be easily fixed, but he really blew it with the Provost of Veluna Marshall of Furyondy thing.
The setting has remained fairly consistent since his material, but he really reinvented the feel of the setting.
Scott
but I can not see how anybody that was familiar with the setting prior to his contributions can think he kept the theme.
LOL, and you will be condemned to Gygaxian Greyhawk for all eternity, good for you. Once again, I'm not asking if you like Sargent's writing. I want to know about the Euroz as a clan and a race.
Otherwise, I appreciate everyone's input thus far. There's alot of options presenting themselves. Too many to make a decision on, I may choose to just shy away from it all together. Although, Lassiviren and Rhineglade came up with some very interesting explainations.
Originally posted by ScottyG
It seemed Carl suffered from Tolkien-envy.
And Gygax didn't? Right. That's why he put hobbits and ents (er, that is, halflings and treants) in the game. And got sued by the Tolkien estate.
Now, as for the original topic:
Originally posted by abysslin
The exact text I was referring to is...
quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The native forest orcs, a sub-tribe of the Euroz who call themselves the Eurok, have no love for those of their kind who have defected to the service of Aerdy rulers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Based on this quote alone, I'd say "sub-tribe of the Euroz" is intended to be synonymous with "sub-tribe of the orcs." (Granted, then it's odd to say "sub-tribe" instead of just "tribe," but reading it this way eliminates some problems, doesn't it?)
Granted, then it's odd to say "sub-tribe" instead of just "tribe," but reading it this way eliminates some problems, doesn't it?
Indeed, odd how one prefix (sub) can cause such a problem.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Based on this quote alone, I'd say "sub-tribe of the Euroz" is intended to be synonymous with "sub-tribe of the orcs." (Granted, then it's odd to say "sub-tribe" instead of just "tribe," but reading it this way eliminates some problems, doesn't it?)
Sub-tribe of the orcs??? That quote, especially when you consider the usage of other race names as orc tribe names, implies the Euroz was meant to be the name of an orc tribe.
Scott
Not that it helps Abysslin's project any (sorry man) but it's clear to me that Death Moon, Vile Rune are common tongue words. Now it wouldn't be a stretch to say Ur-zun means 'Death Moon' in flan, or Kaz-gund means Vile Rune, but where this idea breaks down is that the words are -flannish- descriptors for orcs. What do the orcs THEMSELVES call their race? I don't think Euroz speak flan, and unless the flan are actually using the humanoid term for their racial names then the Euroz are actually called something different in their own tongue.
Although I do love the idea of elitist orcs that consider themselves the crème de la crème of the orcish race. A dubious honor to say the least.
I know this doesn't help you straighten things out any Abysslin...
Halber
Originally posted by mortellan
Not that it helps Abysslin's project any (sorry man) but it's clear to me that Death Moon, Vile Rune are common tongue words. Now it wouldn't be a stretch to say Ur-zun means 'Death Moon' in flan, or Kaz-gund means Vile Rune,
A note: Death Moon and Vile Rune orcs mostly inhabit the Bone March, as noted in Gygax's Greyhawk's World articles. The other side of the country from Iuz's orcs.
Halber
Originally posted by Halberkill
A note: Death Moon and Vile Rune orcs mostly inhabit the Bone March, as noted in Gygax's Greyhawk's World articles. The other side of the country from Iuz's orcs.
Halber
The Rotting Eye tribe dwells in the Yatils.
Scott
But still, while it may not be an issue to plant your flag over, I see nothing terrible about continuing to use Carl's names for Iuz's orc tribes. Why? I see it as entirely believable that orc tribes under a non-orc's command might adopt a foreign name for its own. I mean, think of it in terms of college athletics. Are the University of Illinois' sports teams [i]actually[/i] made up of real illini? How many even know what an illini even is? (j/k to those IU grads). It is entirely possible that with the rise of Iuz, the orcs adopted Flan names for their particular tribes. As I seem to recall, there was a significant Flan human population in the lands of Iuz when Iuz rose to power. So maybe the orcs employed by Iuz adopted names of creatures that evoked a reaction of fear in the humans they encountered. Yeah, I know there is a Flan/Oeridian mix of humans in the lands of Iuz...
But still, I mean, how many orcs speak Flan? ;)
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by ScottyG
I'd just rather not mold my Greyhawk around somebody elses mistakes.
Yet you adhere to Gygax's works...
Just out of curiosity, do you honestly believe that you are contributing valuable information to this thread by criticizing the original posters inclinations towards using Sargent-Hawk?
Do you really feel it necessary to inflict your opinion on people who are obviously not interested in your stance?
Go back to Dragonsfoot...
Excellent point Boz, although I shudder at the thought of comparing Native Americans to orcs. Actually Cheyenne means "Red Talkers" in Dakota, a name they were given by their sometime enemies and eventual allies, the Sioux. The Cheyenne did refer to themseleves as The People, Human Beings or simply Us. Sioux, BTW, comes from a French bastardization of another tribes name for the Dakota people meaning Snake or Enemy. Dakota (Lakota, Nakota) means Ally or Friend in their own language. This is an example of how the Orcs could have gained a Flan word for themselves.
But this also brings up an earlier point about sub-tribes. If you look at Native Americans for comparison (gulp) then the Siouan culture is an excellent example. There were thousands of languages spoken in the New World before Columbus and Company came and wrecked it all (and that's all I'll say about that, you don't want to get me started). Lots of tribes spoke languages akin to one another and could understand each other with little difficulty. The larger Sioux nation was divided into sub-tribes (or bands) called the Brule (burned thighs), Hunkpapa (campers at the opening of the circle), Miniconjou (planters by the water), and Sihasapa (Blackfeet) just to name a few. They didn't always get along (in fact they fought amongst themselves almost constantly) but when gathered together for a common goal they were formiddable. Just ask Custer. If they'd all banded together early and stuck together the US wouldn't have gotten past the Appalachian Mountains. Or Columbus wouldn't have made it back across the pond.
Now imagine what orcs who put aside their differences (for a little while anyway) can do to your campaign world.
And Boz because I know you'll ask, Cherokee means "Cave People" in Choctaw or "People of a Different Speech" in Creek, depending on who you ask. The Cherokee refer to themselves as Cherokee for the tourists so things don't get too complicated but their true name is Ani-Yunwiya, which means “The Principle People” in the Cherokee language. And no, I didn't already know all this stuff (some of it, yes) but I did some Google searching just to get the facts straight.
Sorry I ranted so long. Abysslin, I hope this gives you some ideas.
Originally posted by Rhineglade
... for sake of compromise since there are now two schools of thought, why can't you just say that the Euroz are both a clan AND the general term for orcs. Maybe there is one clan of orcs that think they are the epitomy of all orcish ideals and refer to themselves as THE orcs thus calling their clan the Euroz.
I could almost see the Suloise doing the same thing by calling themselves THE humans since they feel their race is the superior of the species.
I also like combining groups and adjusting tribal names to fix the erroneous use of other racial names (i.e. celbit and jebli) applied to orcish tribes.
As for the names of the Orc tribes in the MM1, if anyone ever bothered to compare them to the Moore humanoid deities, they would note that each tribal symbol is the same as the symbol of one of the deities. That is a useful bit of trivia rather than worrying about a minor error like thinking the Jebli were an Orc tribe rather than Goblins.
Originally posted by Samwise
As for the names of the Orc tribes in the MM1, if anyone ever bothered to compare them to the Moore humanoid deities, they would note that each tribal symbol is the same as the symbol of one of the deities.
Well, not so much as "not bothered", but just simply overlooked. Thanks for making that point out. Maybe we oughta have a show called Greyhawk Connections.
Halber