Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2004 14:20:37	My knowledge of ancient civilizations is far from complete... It has been mentioned before that the city-states are intentionally based off of real civilizations... I was wondering if some blanks could be filled in for me. Balic- Appears to be greek, considering Andropinis claims to be the elected dictator of Balic. His nobles are called patricians. Draj- Clearly south american. Im not sure which one in particular, if any. Gulg- African, considering the technological level and the presence of headhunters. My brother tells me that there was a city called Great Zimbabwe that strongly resembles Gulg. Nibenay- This one is a blank to me. Perhaps China? Agafari = bamboo? Raam- Considering the architecture and Ablach-Re's position as the "Great Visier", Raam appears to be persian in influence. Tyr- Another blank. The Ziggurat could be a clue that it is Egyptian or another south american civilization. Btw, how is Tyr prononounced? Considering Kalak calls himself the Tyrant of Tyr, i wonder if Tyr should be pronounced "tire". Urik- Its been suggested before that Urik is babylonian, with hamanu being hammurabi. This sounds correct to me. Lost City States Eldaarich- The paranoid culture of Eldaarich sounds a little like japanese xenophobia Kalidnay- Another ziggurat; a fallen one at that. Another blank. Supposedly similar to Tyr and Urik. Kurn- Egyptian perhaps? Oronis sounds a lot like Osiris, and at one point I think Egypt had the dual-natured aspect of Kurn; enlightened in one place and barbaric in another. I could be completely off base though. Giustenal- A blank. Yaramuke- Sounds japanese.
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2004 14:24:46	Anyway, I think this would be helpful for making a campaign... it would help me flavor the cities, maybe even come up with appropriate regional feats, and a list of character names appropriate to each of the city states.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2004 14:44:12	Originally posted by Phoenix_Down My knowledge of ancient civilizations is far from complete... It has been mentioned before that the city-states are intentionally based off of real civilizations... I was wondering if some blanks could be filled in for me. Sure! I love this game setting, so let me assure you, I've done this before for my own campaigns. Balic- Appears to be greek, considering Andropinis claims to be the elected dictator of Balic. His nobles are called patricians. I'd make this a mixture of Imperial Rome and democratic Athens, a weird hybrid form of politics that's a nightmare for non-Balicans to navigate. Draj- Clearly south american. Im not sure which one in particular, if any. Aztecs, of course. Ritual murder to feed the gods, anyone? Gulg- African, considering the technological level and the presence of headhunters. My brother tells me that there was a city called Great Zimbabwe that strongly resembles Gulg. I dunno about Great Zimbabwe, but yes, Gulg is essentially fantasy Africa plopped into the middle of the Tyr Region. Nibenay- This one is a blank to me. Perhaps China? Agafari = bamboo? Nibenay screams Thailand to me. The monastic tradition in particular seems very Thai to me. Raam- Considering the architecture and Ablach-Re's position as the "Great Visier", Raam appears to be persian in influence. India, actually. It has a caste system exactly like that of India, a mythological deity that resembles a Hindu god. Tyr- Another blank. The Ziggurat could be a clue that it is Egyptian or another south american civilization. Btw, how is Tyr prononounced? Considering Kalak calls himself the Tyrant of Tyr, i wonder if Tyr should be pronounced "tire". I always considered Tyr to be medieval England. Remember, Kalak stole the zigguraut idea from Kalidnay. Urik- Its been suggested before that Urik is babylonian, with hamanu being hammurabi. This sounds correct to me. Kee-rect. --I have no idea about the others, as we have no real data on them NB
#4 Kamelion Mar 10, 2004 14:52:21	Nibenay is also drawn from Michael Moorcock's Melnibone - decadent city-state presided over by jaded alien nobles with masses of slaves etc.
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2004 14:57:31	Originally posted by Kamelion Nibenay is also drawn from Michael Moorcock's Melnibone - decadent city-state presided over by jaded alien nobles with masses of slaves etc. I realize that. I'm fairly well-read when it comes to epic fantasy. However, the original poster wanted Really Real World comparisons for each of the Seven Cities, so that's what I gave. --he asked, I answered NB
#6 Kamelion Mar 10, 2004 14:59:46	OK - just sharing a thought
#7 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2004 15:50:59	Originally posted by Phoenix_Down Balic- Appears to be greek, considering Andropinis claims to be the elected dictator of Balic. His nobles are called patricians. Patricians are actually Roman (Nobles). Greece elected Archons that had powers similar to dictators. The Romans also elected their dictators by a council of nobles. The Early Roman Empire was very democratic, well, it was a government for the patricians, by the patricians and of the patricians. Gulg- African, considering the technological level and the presence of headhunters. My brother tells me that there was a city called Great Zimbabwe that strongly resembles Gulg. I have read a book about pre-European African cities. It was great. Africa is the ideal setting for Dark Sun it seems. Tyr- Another blank. The Ziggurat could be a clue that it is Egyptian or another south american civilization. Btw, how is Tyr prononounced? Considering Kalak calls himself the Tyrant of Tyr, i wonder if Tyr should be pronounced "tire". Ziggurats are actually Sumerian. Giustenal- A blank. I have seen a map of Giustenal. It appears to be your average fantasy city. Remeber that when they created these city-states, they were mixing up the cultures and using a bit of creativity. For all we know, they were not based off of any culture at all. Afterall, Gulg could have been founded by ancient Elves. They too lived in trees like the Gulgians do.
#8 kael Mar 11, 2004 1:26:18	I always considered Tyr to be medieval England. Remember, Kalak stole the zigguraut idea from Kalidnay. Based on the fact that most of the other cities have thier names taken from the culture they are loosely based on, I would guess that Tyr was based on Phonecian/Carthagian culture. Carthage was also ruled by an aristocratic assembly that the Romans refered to as a Senate. Eldaarich- The paranoid culture of Eldaarich sounds a little like japanese xenophobia Eldaarich's SK reminds me a lot of Stalin or Mao, so my best guess would be that Eldaarich was based on Cultural Revolution era China.
#9 flindbar Mar 11, 2004 2:12:01	Originally posted by Nero's Boot I always considered Tyr to be medieval England. Remember, Kalak stole the zigguraut idea from Kalidnay. I always felt and usedf the idea that Tyr was based on England too, just a little farther back. Roman England was what I used as inspiration. IMHO, most of the settlements of the Tablelands have quite a mediteranean (sp?) feel about them. The areas outside the settlements are dry and arrid but sort of fertile once the rains come or the people irrigate the land. The managed fields would contain olive groves and fruit trees, melons and wheat. (all with athasian names of course !!) Again IMHO, to me its like african plains meets australian outback meets arizona desert. The land looks barren but it isn't. The myriad of desert life sprouts, jumps, hops, slithers, prowls and grows and is adapted to its place in the world. Wow - I almost turned into an Athasian David Attenborough then !! :D flindbar
#10 dawnstealer Mar 11, 2004 8:07:45	Actually, Tyr's pretty close to Persia, as well. In my opinion, Tyr is a true fantasy hodge-podge, based loosely on several ideas including a loose interpretation of what a desert city should be. If I had to guess, I'd say the game-designers started with Tyr, making it a pure fantasy setting, then fleshed out the rest of the "world" with interesting cultures from all over the place. Kurn is based on none other than Smurf Village. Nope, not kidding: everyone there lives in toadstools with doors and windows and is blue. I wouldn't lie about something like that.
#11 Grummore Mar 11, 2004 9:52:17	I am pretty sure that if you do a search of the forum or the old forum about athasian civilization or similar words, you will find some threads about that subject. Some were very interesting and complete in their analysis.
#12 dawnstealer Mar 11, 2004 11:51:06	Okay, that's it - I'm searching for the old boards.
#13 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2004 13:48:41	Balic: Definently Greek, don't recall Roman elements but wouldn't rule it out. Draj: Aztec Gulg: Definently African Nibenay: definently Chinese Raam: definently Indian Tyr: just a touch of Rome, mostly generic Urik: definently Babylonian.
#14 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2004 15:00:16	While examining some of the cultural references is nice, there's a habit to sometimes over associate those cities with the cultures in question. For example, while I think Nibenay may have some touch of Thai and Chinese, its not an omnipresent influence in its flavor. I wouldn't start placing pagodas all over the place, in other words. Granted there's cities like Raam and Gulg, who are firmly entrenched in the culture it is based on, sometimes, too much so for my tastes.
#15 dawnstealer Mar 11, 2004 15:04:56	Bingo. The point is to remember that these city-states were inspired by real-world counterparts, but are not exact copies. If you want to make a campaign on the fly and need a building, for example, and you were in Nibenay, you could probably call on a picture of a Thai building for inspiration. Likewise with the other cities. Plus, a little digging in the history of the various governments is more than enough to build your own processes into the city. That's how I ran it, at least.
#16 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2004 23:57:11	Dawnstealer: Bingo. The point is to remember that these city-states were inspired by real-world counterparts, but are not exact copies. Will keep that in mind. Most of what I want out of this are example names, and a way to describe the buildings, cuture etc. Its not like i am going to set a giant tigone named Azreal after Kurn. ;] (MREEEEAAAAUUUWWW!) (Everyone, Kurn for your lives!) I think its kind of weird that egypt isn't present... It would seem an obvious choice for one of the cultures. *shrug* oh well. This has been really helpful, thanks. =]
#17 Kamelion Mar 12, 2004 1:55:22	Originally posted by Phoenix_Down I think its kind of weird that egypt isn't present... It would seem an obvious choice for one of the cultures. *shrug* oh well. This has been really helpful, thanks. =] Kalidnay seems kind of Eqyptian to me, but that's really only due to names like Kalid-Ma, which sound a bit Egyptian to me. (Although not as much as Abalach-Re, but there you go... ;) )
#18 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 2:53:49	I have to agree with Kael about Tyr. Along with his idea of Phoenica and Carthage, I'd have to suggest ancient Syria (Palmyra as an example) as an influence in Tyrian design. As an afterthought, Tyre was an ancient Phoenician city.
#19 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 3:28:34	Btw, how is Tyr prononounced? Considering Kalak calls himself the Tyrant of Tyr, i wonder if Tyr should be pronounced "tire". I have always wondered this myself. Possibilities include: teer, tire, tur, and tue. Since I believe Tyr to be Phoenician/Syrian, I would have to suggest tire.
#20 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 3:30:38	I think its kind of weird that egypt isn't present... It would seem an obvious choice for one of the cultures. *shrug* oh well. This has been really helpful, thanks. =] In a way, the egyptian premise is the basis for every city-state: a god rules the city through the power of his worshipers. Sounds like some of the old Egyptian politics to me. To go any further with it though would become cliche' and predictable.
#21 heretic_apostate Mar 12, 2004 8:06:59	Originally posted by Ral of Tyr Remeber that when they created these city-states, they were mixing up the cultures and using a bit of creativity. For all we know, they were not based off of any culture at all. Afterall, Gulg could have been founded by ancient Elves. They too lived in trees like the Gulgians do. Based on the stuff written after the setting came out, I thought the elves lived on the islands during the Green Age?
#22 Kamelion Mar 12, 2004 9:27:53	Originally posted by Heretic Apostate Based on the stuff written after the setting came out, I thought the elves lived on the islands during the Green Age? There is at least one group of elves that preserve a Green Age way of life - the ones who live in Sylvandretta near the Last Sea - and they live in tree dwellings. Not sure if they are supposed to be representative of all Green Age elves, though, and their trees could well have been growing on islands back then...
#23 Pennarin Mar 12, 2004 11:47:57	There is also the ancient elven city of Kurn at the base of a mountain range. And the elven ruins on that island in Valley of Dust and Fire were on a big forested island, not at all the kind that's «Hoh, I'm lost in the Pacific, and I'll starve on this one square mile island, darn...» :D
#24 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 12:32:41	Nonhuman Athasian races only marginally resembled their non-Athasian counterparts. Dwarves were never really a subterranean race; elves never rode noble elven steeds (though they did once dwell in forests); halflings were once magitek bioengineers, and now are cannibals of lawful evil descent; the kreen subraces are mostly civilized peoples with no connection to the hunter-gatherers of Toril or Oerth (remember, the vast majority of kreen live in the lowlands to the west); assuming you consider RaFoaDK canon, then Athasian trolls were once rock-worshipping miners, not swamp-dwelling mindless giant-beasts. --this is one feature I always really appreciated about Athas NB
#25 zombiegleemax Mar 13, 2004 23:34:22	Dwarves were never really a subterranean race; Actually, according to The Cerulean Storm, Dwarves and Muls got their darkvision from their dwarven ancestors, who were subterranean. Cannon or not? that seems to be a personal decision. =]
#26 zombiegleemax Mar 14, 2004 0:40:56	Actually, according to The Cerulean Storm, Dwarves and Muls got their darkvision from their dwarven ancestors, who were subterranean. Cannon or not? that seems to be a personal decision. Well, even an obscure reference is enough for me. Even subterranean, doesn't necessarily mean that they were typical dwarves. Though of all the DS races, dwarves seemed to be the least altered of them all. They're still dour, grim, and stubborn (and with their focus, even more so than other dwarves), just not drunkenly rambunctious.
#27 Kamelion Mar 14, 2004 4:01:41	There are also the dwarves of Kharzden (also near the Last Sea) who live underground and do the whole mining thing. Although, iirc, the suggestion is that they took up this lifestyle rather than preserved it from ancient times...
#28 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2004 19:16:10	Originally posted by Cyrus9a I have always wondered this myself. Possibilities include: teer, tire, tur, and tue. Since I believe Tyr to be Phoenician/Syrian, I would have to suggest tire. It's spelled like the name of the Norse god of War Týr and for that reason I always pronounce it like that (I'm Icelandic). But of course the city has nothing to do with viking culture (snow and desert don't mix well) so it's probably tire. Tyr in icelandic is pronounced somewhere between tear and tier. Don't know how you pronounce teer but that's probably the right way.