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mystara immortals vs deities?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Mar 11, 2004 9:01:27 I noticed people mentioning that immortals differentiate Mystara from the other settings...

After looking at them in WotI, I don't see how they're so different. They have clerical followers, grant spells, and give their priests unique abilities - I'm not seeing a significant difference between them and the various 'pantheons'.

Granted, PCs can become immortal in Mystara (-like, has anyone really - no, REALLY - run a campaign long enough for a 36th lvl PC become a polymath... har har har).

Maybe the power levels of low-level immortals is not on a par with the stats of 'deities and demigods' figures - I just don't know. Why do people feel Mystara is so different from other settings in these regards?
#2
zombiegleemax
Mar 11, 2004 10:24:37 Primarily because Immortals are actually defined as a character class in the rules, and, because Immortals aren't really "divine" in Mystara, they are just super-powerful beings, all of whom were once mortal. (or most of them, anyway). In the AD&D system this is the exception rather than the rule. Deities are things of divine (or infernal) origin, not mortals who transcended.

Another difference is that in the AD&D system, there is an afterlife in the outer planes for followers of any particular immortal. In Mystara, the Immortals do not seem to be connected to any sort of afterlife of their followers. IMHO this is a pretty major difference.
#3
zombiegleemax
Mar 11, 2004 10:58:49 As someone whose campaigns rarely got into the double digits for levels, let alone in the 30's where the prospect of immortality became relevant, there really was no difference between immortals and deities for me.

I think the main effect for my purposes was that many of the immortals had more of a vested interest in the goings on in Mystara. Take Halav and the other Traladaran immortals for instance. As former members of the society, they were interested in what was going on in that society. In fact, the only reason that they became immortals in the first place was to serve that society. (or maybe it was that they became immortals by virtue of their service to that society...)

Therefore, the immortals aren't some pie in the sky, unknowable celestrial being. They're tangible players on the world scene. Whether that really makes the immortals all that different from deities in other campaigns is debatable.

R.A.
#4
zombiegleemax
Mar 11, 2004 13:30:57 I believe I read something somewhere on those lines.

Heres the link:

http://www.dnd.starflung.com/mystsjps.html

I first got into Mystaria threw a chance encounter with four Mystaria Boxed sets(AD&D Glantri and Karameikos, OD&D Champions of Mystaria, AD&D Red Steel)

I've always used the AD&D rules, with Mystaria in the Planescape multiverse(but just as background noise basically) I did this for several reasons: I wanted a defined Afterlife for Mystarians, A greater background conflict(In my Campaign, Bel of the Nine Hells of Baator was the main culprit behind the draining of the Radiance).
#5
marc
Mar 11, 2004 17:07:35 If you are looking at it at a high level concept level I can understand how you would think that there is no major difference. However, if you put yourself into a pcs shoes you immedietly see the difference not only in outlook but in the pcs motives as well. A god is a god, but if you know that immortality is something you can achieve then your reasoning for following or not following an immortals faith/philosophy is substantialy different.
#6
Hugin
Mar 11, 2004 17:29:30 I've always seen little difference between the Immortals of Mystara and the gods of AD&D, but as Edge says, there is a difference. Immortals (for the vast majority) began as mortals and through their deeds were able to advance to Immortality. They also are considered a class and capable of advancing in power once they have become Immortal (I'm not sure if the AD&D deities are capable of increasing their power or not).

Immortals also have limited abilities and powers and not all Immortals share the same ones. I think the fact that they were mortal makes me think that a lot of them are genuinely interested in their followers (since they used to be one of them) and don't just nessessarily see them as "pawns to be played with". But of course some have their power go to their head so to speak.

As for an afterlife, most material is vague but I know the Northern Reaches Gaz it states that "valkyries come to the Prime plane to retrieve the spirits of heroic Northmen warriors who fall in combat" and "brought to Valhalla". I personally liked Bruce Heard's article on Limbo and how a character's spirit has to search for the entrance to the plane of his or her Immortal. The more devoted the character, the closer in Limbo to that portal they began.

It "explained" undead in a really neat way!
#7
zombiegleemax
Mar 12, 2004 5:02:44 I had a Cleric character of my own reach Immortality once. My DM had no material on being Immortal so we quit the capaign at that time.:sad:

Then I started my own and several of my characters reached the 30's after a few years. Rather exciting. As far as death goes, when a player died they were gone for good. I think there was a True God behind the power of the Immortals that made the Sphere they follow. That is why Immortals even had limits as far as raising the dead goes. IE: Waiting too long.
#8
zombiegleemax
Mar 12, 2004 6:36:43 The od&d rules is the only I know that decribe how to become an immortal, an appealing goal for players!

However, as I said in the other thread, Mystara is not the only setting in wich mortals become Immortals and gods:
1) Forgotten Realms: a few mortals become gods in the time of trouble.
2) Genertela (Runequest) : Heroequesting let mortals become immortals.
3) Mythology: about each of the historic mythology known have at leat one heroe that became immortal (Hercules in one of them).

I like the idea that in Mystara, the system open the door to that!

I am DMing a campaign that start over 20 years ago, and one of my player is questing for immortality. I don't know if he will ever succed, first by lack of time to play, second by the difficulty of the tasks demanded.
#9
zombiegleemax
Mar 12, 2004 8:19:01 Well, there might be a few deities in other systems who were raised to that status, but it wasn't the "normal" origin of most of the deities, rather an exceptional one. In Mystara, almost *all* the Immortals - maybe all of them - were once mortal, and, the process of becoming an Immortal isn't just an exceptional thing that may happen once or twice in the entire timeline of an entire world to one or two mortals, but it is a regular, ongoing activity and one of the big concerns of the current Immortals. There are said to be "thousands" of Immortals in the Prime Plane of Mystara (although only a few of these are concerned with the planet Mystara) and the vast majority of these - maybe even all of them - were once mortal. That's thousands of mortals who became Immortal, compared to a mere handful in most other milieus.

Also alot of the "mortals" who became deities in other systems were often the offspring of a mortal and a deity (like Hercules) and therefore, not fully mortal to begin with. Also they don't seem to achieve the same status as full-blooded "gods" and are often limited to being demigods themselves. The emphasis seems to be on birth when it comes to a deity, but on achievement when it comes to an Immortal.

You can see this difference when it comes to members of a pantheon, in a deity system they are related (as per the mythology) but as Immortals, they are not related at all. For instance, Odin and Thor are represented in both systems. In mythology they are father and son, and under the deities system that is what they are. But in Mystara, the Immortals named Odin and Thor are not related whatsoever.
#10
zombiegleemax
Mar 19, 2004 17:19:44 One intresting twist of immortal politics in an old campain of mine back in the 80':

the immortal who sponsored a mortal to immortality was oblliged to sacrifice a portion of his own personal energy permanetly.

in the same way in 3.0 and 3.5 u craft magic stuff.

BUT it was only a sort of long term investment:
the sponsor retaind the rigth to drain his pupil at will at iat reducted rate rate so it was intresting only after it accumulates a good portion of power of his own

tis explens the hardship of immorality quests
this consented strange plots of immortalty guaranted just for love

thi mad immortlity much more triky, it was a vampiric ghenna scenario tipe, with a terrible irony....

i loved the paranoid politcs it generated..
#11
zombiegleemax
Mar 28, 2004 8:10:55 I view it this way: Mystaran Immortals are critters that use the Epic Level Handbook, and nothing else. Divinities use Deities and Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook.

--gods are more powerful, but all Mystaran mortals could become Immortal NB
#12
Hugin
Mar 28, 2004 9:29:21 My personal preference is that the Immortals be *far* beyond the power of mortals. I'm not sure which rule book states it, but I remember reading somewhere that Immortals should be much more than just super-powered "monsters" for the PCs to defeat. If normal, albeit very powerful, humans are capable of taking on an Immortal, than that reduces the prize of gaining Immortality.

In other words, why bother going through all the effort to gain Immortality if you can gain similar results by just improving your epic levels?
#13
zombiegleemax
Mar 28, 2004 11:17:49
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
I view it this way: Mystaran Immortals are critters that use the Epic Level Handbook, and nothing else. Divinities use Deities and Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook.

--gods are more powerful, but all Mystaran mortals could become Immortal NB

I must disagree with Nero... Mystaran Immortals are divine beings. There is an opportunuity for all mortals to become immortals, ie demi-gods.
IMC, epic level handbook is for all players behond 20th lvl. To become immortal is an enormous task! If you succeed, you become one of the "gods". This event is very rare.
#14
zombiegleemax
Mar 28, 2004 11:23:11
Originally posted by MD
I must disagree with Nero... Mystaran Immortals are divine beings. There is an opportunuity for all mortals to become immortals, ie demi-gods.
IMC, epic level handbook is for all players behond 20th lvl. To become immortal is an enormous task! If you succeed, you become one of the "gods". This event is very rare.

Ignoring the fact that Athasian sorcerer-kings aren't gods, yet grant cleric spells, are we? We also seem to be ignoring the fact that the Rules Cyclopedia explicitly states Immortal are not gods.

--in the Scarred Lands, Titans aren't divine, yet grant druid spells NB
#15
havard
Mar 28, 2004 12:28:05 Neros_Boots:
I view it this way: Mystaran Immortals are critters that use the Epic Level Handbook, and nothing else. Divinities use Deities and Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook.

That doesn't reflect very well how the Immortals were presented in previous rulesets though. Even though low level Immortals may not be much more powerful than Epic level Heroes, a Full Hierarch is more powerful than your average God.

This comparison though doesn't really have any meaning since Mystara doesn't have gods and never did.

OTOH, it would be an interesting scenario if Mystara once had gods, but that these gods became lazy and corrupt and the Immortals rose up against them and drove them from the universe. Ofcourse, now, centuries later, the Immortals are not much different than their old enemies, having forgotten the ideals of their youth. This storyline is not unlike Greek Mythology where the Gods rose against the Titans...

The main reason why Mystara has Immortals though, is because of the pressure TSR had from religious zealots back in the 80's. While they wanted to have a rules system which allowed heroes to become gods, they figured if the called them immortals instead it would be ok. Later they also renamed Demons to Fiends of the same reason. Ah, the wonders of US society! (And how even people in frozen godless wastelands like myself have to deal with the effects... )

Havard
#16
zombiegleemax
Mar 28, 2004 12:36:31 Ahhh, religious zealots. How could the world go on existing without amusing specimens of religious zealotry as Jack Chick?

--I wouldn't want to live in such a humor-free universe, if it lacked Chick NB
#17
zombiegleemax
Mar 29, 2004 6:07:33
Originally posted by Nero's Boot
Ignoring the fact that Athasian sorcerer-kings aren't gods, yet grant cleric spells, are we? We also seem to be ignoring the fact that the Rules Cyclopedia explicitly states Immortal are not gods.

--in the Scarred Lands, Titans aren't divine, yet grant druid spells NB

Athasian sorcerer-kings? That sounds good! I don't know about them, where can I read about it?

You're right, Immortal are not gods, they are god-like. They are not high level mortals!

Titans are immortals (originally from Immortal set box) and god-like beings, so they grant spells.

Havard's opinion on Immmrtal / god name giving by TSR is very interesting and is surely near the truth! I remember the demon-devil problem...
DM: "You face a baathezu!" Players: "You mean, it's a devil, isn't?"
#18
havard
Mar 29, 2004 8:33:16
Ahhh, religious zealots. How could the world go on existing without amusing specimens of religious zealotry as Jack Chick?

Ah, Chick is a classic
Too bad people actually take the guy seriously...

Havard

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2004 9:01:27	I noticed people mentioning that immortals differentiate Mystara from the other settings... After looking at them in WotI, I don't see how they're so different. They have clerical followers, grant spells, and give their priests unique abilities - I'm not seeing a significant difference between them and the various 'pantheons'. Granted, PCs can become immortal in Mystara (-like, has anyone really - no, REALLY - run a campaign long enough for a 36th lvl PC become a polymath... har har har). Maybe the power levels of low-level immortals is not on a par with the stats of 'deities and demigods' figures - I just don't know. Why do people feel Mystara is so different from other settings in these regards?
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2004 10:24:37	Primarily because Immortals are actually defined as a character class in the rules, and, because Immortals aren't really "divine" in Mystara, they are just super-powerful beings, all of whom were once mortal. (or most of them, anyway). In the AD&D system this is the exception rather than the rule. Deities are things of divine (or infernal) origin, not mortals who transcended. Another difference is that in the AD&D system, there is an afterlife in the outer planes for followers of any particular immortal. In Mystara, the Immortals do not seem to be connected to any sort of afterlife of their followers. IMHO this is a pretty major difference.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2004 10:58:49	As someone whose campaigns rarely got into the double digits for levels, let alone in the 30's where the prospect of immortality became relevant, there really was no difference between immortals and deities for me. I think the main effect for my purposes was that many of the immortals had more of a vested interest in the goings on in Mystara. Take Halav and the other Traladaran immortals for instance. As former members of the society, they were interested in what was going on in that society. In fact, the only reason that they became immortals in the first place was to serve that society. (or maybe it was that they became immortals by virtue of their service to that society...) Therefore, the immortals aren't some pie in the sky, unknowable celestrial being. They're tangible players on the world scene. Whether that really makes the immortals all that different from deities in other campaigns is debatable. R.A.
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2004 13:30:57	I believe I read something somewhere on those lines. Heres the link: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/mystsjps.html I first got into Mystaria threw a chance encounter with four Mystaria Boxed sets(AD&D Glantri and Karameikos, OD&D Champions of Mystaria, AD&D Red Steel) I've always used the AD&D rules, with Mystaria in the Planescape multiverse(but just as background noise basically) I did this for several reasons: I wanted a defined Afterlife for Mystarians, A greater background conflict(In my Campaign, Bel of the Nine Hells of Baator was the main culprit behind the draining of the Radiance).
#5 marc Mar 11, 2004 17:07:35	If you are looking at it at a high level concept level I can understand how you would think that there is no major difference. However, if you put yourself into a pcs shoes you immedietly see the difference not only in outlook but in the pcs motives as well. A god is a god, but if you know that immortality is something you can achieve then your reasoning for following or not following an immortals faith/philosophy is substantialy different.
#6 Hugin Mar 11, 2004 17:29:30	I've always seen little difference between the Immortals of Mystara and the gods of AD&D, but as Edge says, there is a difference. Immortals (for the vast majority) began as mortals and through their deeds were able to advance to Immortality. They also are considered a class and capable of advancing in power once they have become Immortal (I'm not sure if the AD&D deities are capable of increasing their power or not). Immortals also have limited abilities and powers and not all Immortals share the same ones. I think the fact that they were mortal makes me think that a lot of them are genuinely interested in their followers (since they used to be one of them) and don't just nessessarily see them as "pawns to be played with". But of course some have their power go to their head so to speak. As for an afterlife, most material is vague but I know the Northern Reaches Gaz it states that "valkyries come to the Prime plane to retrieve the spirits of heroic Northmen warriors who fall in combat" and "brought to Valhalla". I personally liked Bruce Heard's article on Limbo and how a character's spirit has to search for the entrance to the plane of his or her Immortal. The more devoted the character, the closer in Limbo to that portal they began. It "explained" undead in a really neat way!
#7 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 5:02:44	I had a Cleric character of my own reach Immortality once. My DM had no material on being Immortal so we quit the capaign at that time.:sad: Then I started my own and several of my characters reached the 30's after a few years. Rather exciting. As far as death goes, when a player died they were gone for good. I think there was a True God behind the power of the Immortals that made the Sphere they follow. That is why Immortals even had limits as far as raising the dead goes. IE: Waiting too long.
#8 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 6:36:43	The od&d rules is the only I know that decribe how to become an immortal, an appealing goal for players! However, as I said in the other thread, Mystara is not the only setting in wich mortals become Immortals and gods: 1) Forgotten Realms: a few mortals become gods in the time of trouble. 2) Genertela (Runequest) : Heroequesting let mortals become immortals. 3) Mythology: about each of the historic mythology known have at leat one heroe that became immortal (Hercules in one of them). I like the idea that in Mystara, the system open the door to that! I am DMing a campaign that start over 20 years ago, and one of my player is questing for immortality. I don't know if he will ever succed, first by lack of time to play, second by the difficulty of the tasks demanded.
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2004 8:19:01	Well, there might be a few deities in other systems who were raised to that status, but it wasn't the "normal" origin of most of the deities, rather an exceptional one. In Mystara, almost all the Immortals - maybe all of them - were once mortal, and, the process of becoming an Immortal isn't just an exceptional thing that may happen once or twice in the entire timeline of an entire world to one or two mortals, but it is a regular, ongoing activity and one of the big concerns of the current Immortals. There are said to be "thousands" of Immortals in the Prime Plane of Mystara (although only a few of these are concerned with the planet Mystara) and the vast majority of these - maybe even all of them - were once mortal. That's thousands of mortals who became Immortal, compared to a mere handful in most other milieus. Also alot of the "mortals" who became deities in other systems were often the offspring of a mortal and a deity (like Hercules) and therefore, not fully mortal to begin with. Also they don't seem to achieve the same status as full-blooded "gods" and are often limited to being demigods themselves. The emphasis seems to be on birth when it comes to a deity, but on achievement when it comes to an Immortal. You can see this difference when it comes to members of a pantheon, in a deity system they are related (as per the mythology) but as Immortals, they are not related at all. For instance, Odin and Thor are represented in both systems. In mythology they are father and son, and under the deities system that is what they are. But in Mystara, the Immortals named Odin and Thor are not related whatsoever.
#10 zombiegleemax Mar 19, 2004 17:19:44	One intresting twist of immortal politics in an old campain of mine back in the 80': the immortal who sponsored a mortal to immortality was oblliged to sacrifice a portion of his own personal energy permanetly. in the same way in 3.0 and 3.5 u craft magic stuff. BUT it was only a sort of long term investment: the sponsor retaind the rigth to drain his pupil at will at iat reducted rate rate so it was intresting only after it accumulates a good portion of power of his own tis explens the hardship of immorality quests this consented strange plots of immortalty guaranted just for love thi mad immortlity much more triky, it was a vampiric ghenna scenario tipe, with a terrible irony.... i loved the paranoid politcs it generated..
#11 zombiegleemax Mar 28, 2004 8:10:55	I view it this way: Mystaran Immortals are critters that use the Epic Level Handbook, and nothing else. Divinities use Deities and Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook. --gods are more powerful, but all Mystaran mortals could become Immortal NB
#12 Hugin Mar 28, 2004 9:29:21	My personal preference is that the Immortals be far beyond the power of mortals. I'm not sure which rule book states it, but I remember reading somewhere that Immortals should be much more than just super-powered "monsters" for the PCs to defeat. If normal, albeit very powerful, humans are capable of taking on an Immortal, than that reduces the prize of gaining Immortality. In other words, why bother going through all the effort to gain Immortality if you can gain similar results by just improving your epic levels?
#13 zombiegleemax Mar 28, 2004 11:17:49	Originally posted by Nero's Boot I view it this way: Mystaran Immortals are critters that use the Epic Level Handbook, and nothing else. Divinities use Deities and Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook. --gods are more powerful, but all Mystaran mortals could become Immortal NB I must disagree with Nero... Mystaran Immortals are divine beings. There is an opportunuity for all mortals to become immortals, ie demi-gods. IMC, epic level handbook is for all players behond 20th lvl. To become immortal is an enormous task! If you succeed, you become one of the "gods". This event is very rare.
#14 zombiegleemax Mar 28, 2004 11:23:11	Originally posted by MD I must disagree with Nero... Mystaran Immortals are divine beings. There is an opportunuity for all mortals to become immortals, ie demi-gods. IMC, epic level handbook is for all players behond 20th lvl. To become immortal is an enormous task! If you succeed, you become one of the "gods". This event is very rare. Ignoring the fact that Athasian sorcerer-kings aren't gods, yet grant cleric spells, are we? We also seem to be ignoring the fact that the Rules Cyclopedia explicitly states Immortal are not gods. --in the Scarred Lands, Titans aren't divine, yet grant druid spells NB
#15 havard Mar 28, 2004 12:28:05	Neros_Boots: I view it this way: Mystaran Immortals are critters that use the Epic Level Handbook, and nothing else. Divinities use Deities and Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook. That doesn't reflect very well how the Immortals were presented in previous rulesets though. Even though low level Immortals may not be much more powerful than Epic level Heroes, a Full Hierarch is more powerful than your average God. This comparison though doesn't really have any meaning since Mystara doesn't have gods and never did. OTOH, it would be an interesting scenario if Mystara once had gods, but that these gods became lazy and corrupt and the Immortals rose up against them and drove them from the universe. Ofcourse, now, centuries later, the Immortals are not much different than their old enemies, having forgotten the ideals of their youth. This storyline is not unlike Greek Mythology where the Gods rose against the Titans... The main reason why Mystara has Immortals though, is because of the pressure TSR had from religious zealots back in the 80's. While they wanted to have a rules system which allowed heroes to become gods, they figured if the called them immortals instead it would be ok. Later they also renamed Demons to Fiends of the same reason. Ah, the wonders of US society! (And how even people in frozen godless wastelands like myself have to deal with the effects... ) Havard
#16 zombiegleemax Mar 28, 2004 12:36:31	Ahhh, religious zealots. How could the world go on existing without amusing specimens of religious zealotry as Jack Chick? --I wouldn't want to live in such a humor-free universe, if it lacked Chick NB
#17 zombiegleemax Mar 29, 2004 6:07:33	Originally posted by Nero's Boot Ignoring the fact that Athasian sorcerer-kings aren't gods, yet grant cleric spells, are we? We also seem to be ignoring the fact that the Rules Cyclopedia explicitly states Immortal are not gods. --in the Scarred Lands, Titans aren't divine, yet grant druid spells NB Athasian sorcerer-kings? That sounds good! I don't know about them, where can I read about it? You're right, Immortal are not gods, they are god-like. They are not high level mortals! Titans are immortals (originally from Immortal set box) and god-like beings, so they grant spells. Havard's opinion on Immmrtal / god name giving by TSR is very interesting and is surely near the truth! I remember the demon-devil problem... DM: "You face a baathezu!" Players: "You mean, it's a devil, isn't?"
#18 havard Mar 29, 2004 8:33:16	Ahhh, religious zealots. How could the world go on existing without amusing specimens of religious zealotry as Jack Chick? Ah, Chick is a classic Too bad people actually take the guy seriously... Havard