However, going to the temple of Rad is accepted, even encouraged.
That just don't make sense in a fantasy game where clerics have so much powers. Glantri's Council is made of Wizards of great intelligence. They think philosophy toward life is better than blinded faith in "gods". Logic.
However, clerics can heal, remove disease, raise the dead! Wich wizard will never be in need of divine magic?
So it's logic that clerics shouldn't be criminals, but they should be accepted as necessary in a fantastic d&d setting.
I suggest that only temple of Rad are permitted - with their clerics, and that other clerics are allowed if they never cast spells in public.
I suppose that Glantri was based on the old USSR (no religions, one philosophy accepted, excissive sentence otherwise) ?
Am I just missing something about Glantri?
(Finally, just excuse my bad english, it's not my first language)
The Ban against Clerics comes from the old Clerics vs Wizards conflict, common in many D&D settings. My personal interpretation is that the Wizards of Glantri don't like Clerics because they feel that the Clerics, through gaining spells from an Immortal, rather than through studies and magical talent are cheating. Also, Clerics, being servants of an Immortal are bound to have some hidden agenda, beyond that of one's own interest, which all Glantrians have.
Furthermore, the Averoignians and others hailing from LaTerre were driven from that world because there, anyone with a magical talent were burned by Clerics. So, they just decided to found a country which returned the favour.
You are right though, that this isn't a very sympathetic trait for the Glantrians. Having a campaign based on Clerics working "underground" in Glantri has lots of adventure possibilities.
After the events in WotI, Clerics were allowed in Glantri to help deal with the plague. However IMC, I decided that that was only for a limited period since it removes part of what makes Glantri unique.
Havard
As far as healing and curing disease etc, a First Circle Alchemist (who is only 5th level) is able to create potions which do all of these things. This isn't quite as good as a cleric who can do them on demand, but it's something.
Finally, in countries where clerics are more common, I don't see clerics going around healing just anyone who happens to be injured. Clerical spells are prayers, and I think there has to be some sincerity to the prayer and belief that casting the spell advances the interests of the Immortal involved; I don't think the Immortals see themselves as resources to be used by mortals, and look ill upon clerics whose only interest is to secure access to Immortal services.
In Glantri, despite the fact that they are not as easily able to produce a healing effect, they are under no restrictions whatsoever about providing them. So there are likely quite a few Alchemists making potions that duplicate cure light wounds, cure disease, neutralize poison, etc, all with profit in mind and providing their services to anyone with the money to pay.
R.A.
Another thing to consider is that the lack of clerical magic effects the common populace far more than the wizardly nobility. As has been pointed out, alchemists can make potions to mimic some clerical healing spells. The wizardly families would also have the resources to teleport to Darokin or someplace similar and get a Raise Dead or Cure Disease if they needed to. So, basically, this is just another tool to keep the populace in their place. Also, remember that in OD&D, Reincarnate was a magic-user spell, so it could sort of take the place of Raise Dead in a pinch.
IMC there was always more religion under the surface than meets the eye. Even if the Shepherds don't get divine powers, they're still serving an Immortal. The party in my last game pretty much ignored the Shepherds until higher levels when they put together the Etienne/Radiance/Rad the Immortal connections- and then they realized they had no idea what this group did, or what their motives were. Sort of a neat moment, really.
The Elves of Ellerovyn, being from Alfheim, had a Tree of Life and the associated Treekeepers, which also get divine magic. These were couched as "elven tradition", but since the Trees are avatars of Ilsundal, it's pretty much religion. The Alhambra elves aren't from that tradition, of course, but I had an underground cult of Valerias within that principality, tied to the Circle of Witchcraft (I think someone wrote this up on the Vaults originally, but I can't remember the source).
I will keep Glantri rid of clerics in my campaign...
Tell me, how do you deal with clerics PC coming to Glantri city? Do they have to hide their allegeance?
Rad is as you say apart from the other Immortals in various issues. One major reason for this is that he achieved immortality without a sponsor, and was the first known immortal to have done so (followed by Benekander in WotI).
Tell me, how do you deal with clerics PC coming to Glantri city? Do they have to hide their allegeance?
Clerics openly declaring their position will be arrested, tried and excecuted, so hiding their allegiance and the fact that they are clerics is the only way to go. There are in fact quite a few clerics within Glantri's borders working in secret. If you wanted you could have an entire campaign based around this theme.
Havard
Originally posted by havard
Clerics openly declaring their position will be arrested, tried and excecuted, so hiding their allegiance and the fact that they are clerics is the only way to go. There are in fact quite a few clerics within Glantri's borders working in secret. If you wanted you could have an entire campaign based around this theme.
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Yup, this is how I always played it. Chaotic clerics are forbidden in almost all countries, but it hardly stops them from being around. Also, in Glantri, it isn't much of a problem to be a cleric, really. You just have to be smart about it. Openly using clerical magic, wearing holy symbols, preaching the faith, etc, are all going to bring doom, but, just *being* a cleric, well no one needs to know. It is, of course, a good idea to be careful to keep it that way.
What's difficult in Glantri is being a dwarf.
Originally posted by Edgewaters
What's difficult in Glantri is being a dwarf.
This is why in my campaigns the dwarves of Rockhome made raids on the borders of Glantri near the Broken Lands and Ethengar. My players were involved in some of these as 2 of them were Rockhome Dwarves and were furious about the way Glantri treated their "brothers."
One of my campaigns was consisted of several refugees fleeing Glantri City: one of them was a dwarf, another an halfling, the third an Ethengar cleric (which is doubly messy) - and one magic user who accidently climbed into the wrong bed (that of Sir Boris Gorevitch...)
That was fun.
All the characters were mid-level, and didn't know each other before - so there was a need to get them all together. Every character had some reason to flee Glantri City, and they all met in some Darokinian caravan, leaving Glantri just before dawn.
So there was this dwarf, and his fighter friend - both mercenaries who got in trouble at Glantri and served as bodyguards of the caravan; An halfling - who was actually a (lost?) woodrake (as you can see - I have soom affection to these guys...
) with a profound identity crisis - looking for his long-vanished parents or something; The Ethengar cleric, pretending to be Krondahar, but actually one of the fists of Khan; And that magic-user, with whom Sir Boris intensively flirted in one of his lascivious parties. The magic-user was extremely flattered, but had to make a wild escape from Sir Boris' bedroom when the latter revealed his vampire teeth. Sir Boris sent his henchmen after him, so the magic user had to disappear (along with his elven roommate, and her brother who accidently dropped by for a visit...)The caravan was, of course, attacked by humanoids at the Broken Lands and the party was stranded there. The main plot of the campaign consisted of the cleric's discovery of Oktai-Khan's treachery and the journey into Ethengar in order to expose him. As might be expected, we never really reached that point...
The Wizards don't ban religion and priests because of philosofical reasons, but power reasons, since they are the ones with all the power, and priests and religions would threaten that.
Hypocrisy nonwithstanding of coarse, since Glantrians have such an opsession with Magic that it could be considered a religion, hense, the veneration of Rad, but don't you tell them that of coarse!
The Wizards don't ban religion and priests because of philosofical reasons, but power reasons, since they are the ones with all the power, and priests and religions would threaten that.
Still, anyone with in power like to present some philosophical justification for their decisions. Just because the Glantrians are a bunch of evil scheming wizards, doesn't mean they go about saying so.
Its funny that the AD&D version of Glantri has info on this since it is supposed to be set after the ban on clerics was lifted. Ofcourse, they forgot to mention the changes made to the Radience aswell. What a sad story that AD&D conversion project was....
Havard
At any rate, I know there's been some discussion of the changes to the Nucleus on the MML and Vaults, but I really don't recall any details.
Most previous discussions have seemed to have ignored this fact and assumed that the Magic will no longer be drained after WotI, as that module suggests. Furthermore, in those discussions there was a general consensus that due to the connection with Entropy, anyone achieving Immortality through the Radience will now become Immortals of Entropy. Ultimately this remains up to the individual DM though...
Havard
Havard
Edit: Never mind, found and joined.
Originally posted by Hugin
Where is it? I tried the link on the Vaults homepage (before it went down) and Shawn told me that the MML was down. So Anyhow, I'm really interested in seeing whats there.
Edit: Never mind, found and joined.
nah I didn't say the MML was down, but the page that said how to join it was/is down
You look scary, Håvard...
What is the MML?
Its the Mystara Mailinglist. I'd tell you how to join, but I actually I don't remember. Can anyone else help? The more Mystara fans we get talking to eachother the better!
You look scary, Håvard...
Hehe, I kinda liked the picture. I'm not that scary in real life. Trust me. You do trust me, dont you? Heh.
Havard
As for only Immortals of Entropy appearing from the ranks of Mortals in the future, this assumes theres only one path to Immortality. There might be others, for instance, weren't the first immortals created by some beings called the "Old Ones"?
I always wondered why the wizards of Glantri who use Radiance Magic, or at least know about it, didn't find the fact that their "beloved" craft (Magic) would eventual dissapear because of it's continued usage. In fact, that entire question was the theme of the latter part of my old Mystaria campaign(Check out the "Mystaria War Stories" thread for that BTW).
AFAIK the draining of the Radiance was not commonly known even among those who did know about the Radiance. They probably realized it after WotI though....
As for only Immortals of Entropy appearing from the ranks of Mortals in the future, this assumes theres only one path to Immortality. There might be others, for instance, weren't the first immortals created by some beings called the "Old Ones"?
There are many paths to immortality. The immortals themselves set up trials for mortals who wish to join their ranks. This requires a sponsor however. The Radiance was the only _known_ way to achieve immortality without a sponsor, but as you point out there may be others. There may even be other Radiance Artifacts....
Havard
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
I always wondered why the wizards of Glantri who use Radiance Magic, or at least know about it, didn't find the fact that their "beloved" craft (Magic) would eventual dissapear because of it's continued usage. In fact, that entire question was the theme of the latter part of my old Mystaria campaign(Check out the "Mystaria War Stories" thread for that BTW).
Not to get too political or anything, but you could analogize to our society and the use of fossil fuels. Use it up now, damn the future, I'll be off re-shaping the planes as an immortal when the s#$t hits the fan.
However, in the Glantrian case, I don't know how many, if any, of the wizards studying the Radiance have discovered the magic-draining properties yet (as of A.C. 1000). When the revelation hits (assuming you're not playing post-WotI, with its "now it drains entropy" cop-out) it will cause a major rift between the select few individuals who know about the Radiance. Some will want to conserve, others will not.
R.A.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
As for only Immortals of Entropy appearing from the ranks of Mortals in the future, this assumes theres only one path to Immortality. There might be others, for instance, weren't the first immortals created by some beings called the "Old Ones"?
That isn't how it works. Achieving Immortality with the Radiance is rare (there are only 2 Immortals to have done it) and formerly, all who achieved Immortality using the Radiance became Immortals of the Sphere of Energy. Not all new Immortals belonged to this sphere, as the "normal" means of achieving Immortality - one of the Four Paths - is not affected by the Radiance method. The only change is that self-created Radiance Immortals would belong to the Sphere of Entropy as opposed to the Sphere of Energy - not that all new Immortals would be Entropic. The majority probably wouldn't be.
Not to get too political or anything, but you could analogize to our society and the use of fossil fuels. Use it up now, damn the future, I'll be off re-shaping the planes as an immortal when the s#$t hits the fan.
I suspect this analogy was also the original idea for the conflict among the immortals which lead up to the WotI...
Havard
Originally posted by havard
I suspect this analogy was also the original idea for the conflict among the immortals which lead up to the WotI...
Havard
I haven't got WotI but I read somewhere on the Vault that it all began with a quarrel between Rad and Vanya on one hand and Ixion and Ilsundal on the other?
If anyone can give me a quick summary of the quarrel, the main immortals involved and who-killed-who kinda stuff I would be very grateful.
:-) Jesper
No Immortals were destroyed during the conflict (Rad was taken away by one of the Old Ones), as the war was played out with their mortal pawns on Mystara.