I was looking through Age of Mortals recently, specifically the stats for Palin and Dalamar, when I noticed something strange. Before the return of High Sorcery Palin was limited to 6th level spells and Dalamar topped off at 2nd level!
It then came to me that this was probably a huge problem for many of the casters who had to change focus in regard to arcane magic.
I am seriously considering making intelligence the relevant stat for both high sorcery and primal sorcery. Has anyone already done this and what do you all think? Is it unnecesary?
Originally posted by Hrumachis
Hello All
I was looking through Age of Mortals recently, specifically the stats for Palin and Dalamar, when I noticed something strange. Before the return of High Sorcery Palin was limited to 6th level spells and Dalamar topped off at 2nd level!
It then came to me that this was probably a huge problem for many of the casters who had to change focus in regard to arcane magic.
I am seriously considering making intelligence the relevant stat for both high sorcery and primal sorcery. Has anyone already done this and what do you all think? Is it unnecesary?
Primal sorcery is based on charisma? right
I tend to agree with DarkMyst.
I see High magic and primal sorcery as two different things. From a logical standpoint, primal sorcery should also have int as key ability, but I would prefer to keep cha or maybe swith it to wis, because there is a difference when it comes to the drawing of power.
High sorcery is structured and complex.
Primal Sorcery is a raw, earthly almost chaotic force.
Originally posted by Hrumachis
Before the return of High Sorcery Palin was limited to 6th level spells and Dalamar topped off at 2nd level!
You're assuming Dalamar was ever a sorcerer.
Consider this: Takhisis had the undead drawing all of the magic of Ansalon to them, stealing it and saving it for her like undead batteries. Takhisis, in her guise of the Shadow Sorcerer, taught Dalamar the art of "necromancy". Dalamar's Tower was in Nightlund and surrounded by undead. Dalamar also knows how to leech magic from items and use stored arcane energy to power his spells.
It's not so far-fetched nor out of character for Dalamar to have remained a wizard during the Fifth Age, getting the power for his spells not from the absent moons, but from the undead he kept around. That's what he's referring to as "necromancy".
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I dont think ya should...as Primal and High Sorcery are different forms of magic...the relevant ability score difference supports that they are different. And it also explains why some WoHS had a hard time switching to Primal Sorcery in the early 5th age
Exactly. A WoHS was used to approaching everything intellectually, rather than looking inward. As such, the ability score difference fits quite well in-world as well.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Well, it was implied that he was a sorcerer. And I'm pretty sure the necromancy that was refered to as Dalamar knowing was from the sorcerer school of Necromancy. But your explanation works well.
From a SAGA standpoint, necromancy would have fallen under mysticism. I just don't see Dalamar as a mystic, though. I prefer Cam's explanation much better.
Originally posted by Voiceman
Primal sorcery is based on charisma? right
High sorcery is structured and complex.
Primal Sorcery is a raw, earthly almost chaotic force.
That is why it is based on charisma. Think of it this way. Intelligence is the mental dexterity, wisdom is the mental constitution, and charisma as mental strength.
That is why charisma is used to channel raw energy in the PHB. Not only does it serve to impose your will on others (diplomacy, bluff etc), it also serves to impose your will on magical energy. That's why raw divine magic (such as that for turning undead), raw magic from bloodlines (the PHB sorcerer) and raw magic woven into songs all use charisma.
Now I can see a wizard/sorcerer renegade prestige class that involves wisdom as an important skill (to keep from being consumed by chaotic energies), but I would still leave Charisma as the primary ability.
Charisma is to impose your will on the magic, while wisdom is so that the magic doesn't impose its will on YOU.
Of course, I don't really see a reason for variant rule that introduces a will saving throw everytime you cast a spell. Wizardry is structured, ordered, and is designed so that the spell rituals are safe to use. PC sorcerers on the other hand know their limits, and can take this renegade prestige class if they choose to break them.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
From a SAGA standpoint, necromancy would have fallen under mysticism. I just don't see Dalamar as a mystic, though. I prefer Cam's explanation much better.
I'm talking about 3.5 though, since I'm refering to the stats presented in AoM. Using the 3.5 framework for sorcery one can see how Takhisis just taught Dalamar Necromancy. But I agree with Cam as well, his explanation works better.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
My only issue with this debate lies outside the realm of arcane magic....Ive heard them before...but can someone reiterate the reasoning behind Wisdom being a mystic's key ability for casting?
Well, if the mystic uses a source of divine magic outside of herself, then she should be using charisma.
However, I like to think of mystics as drawing upon the power of their own souls and bodies. That's where mental constitution and knowing thyself comes into play, the key elements of the wisdom score. The mystic literally is a luminous being, not this crude matter, and their inner self becomes magically manifest. That is what the domain in 3e dragonlance represents, the mystic's true self.
Monks are a type of mystic who have been trained to harness that inner potential by a long monastic tradition, as well as the corrupted monastic orders who follow Takhisis and Sargonnas. There is, I beleive, an order that also follows Zivilyn, who I imagine place a heavy emphasis on withdrawal from the world of men and embracing a deeper understanding of the universe.
Anyway, that is why monks are available to play (according to the DLCS) during the pre-WotL and 5th Age periods where there are no clerics around. Interestingly, there is also mention of Majerean mentalist mystics serving the Kingpriest in "Sacred Fire".
Healing of course, was Goldmoon's contribution. It makes sense, given that she was the cleric of a healing goddess, and her inner self was shaped by her faith. I imagine that other mystics, though introspection makes them wise, does not tend to foster a spirit of empathy and care for their fellow man.
In my opinion charisma was never really a pure mental stat- sure it had a little to do with personality but also appearance. They should of kept the stat a little simpler.
Not to mention that DL seems to have a penchance for throwing out a lot of charisma penalties- like Minotaurs, Silvanesti, Kagonesti, and Dark Dwarves (Who are supposed to be the sorcerers of the bunch!!).
It just causes unnecessary complications.
Originally posted by Hrumachis
I really never approved of the idea of Charisma controlling magic, as it causes difficulty I think in races with poor charisma. How many of those races take a penalty to charisma because they are gruff or ugly but as a result make poor sorcerers?
Charisma in D&D relates to how one looks and acts based on the premise that an individual with a greater understanding and confidence in himself projects a more appealing or forceful demeanor, and can influence others as a result. A race with a penalty to Charisma thinks less of themselves as an independent individual and thus does not have as much self-awareness as a race without a penalty, resulting in an inability to deal with others, impose their personality in social situations, carry themselves in an appealing manner, etc.
There are a lot of people who think they're intimidating, charming, or gifted with social graces or who think they possess a degree of self-confidence but secretly don't, and Charisma reflects this too (especially in the case of a high Intelligence and low Charisma). Sorcerers are inevitably aware of their own talents and confident enough in their power to impose their wills on ambient magic. If they didn't think they could do it, they literally couldn't.
Cheers,
Cam
Serena DarkMyst said:
My only issue with this debate lies outside the realm of arcane magic....Ive heard them before...but can someone reiterate the reasoning behind Wisdom being a mystic's key ability for casting?
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I would think that just as Monks get to use Wis for their Ki Strikes, and other Ki energy comes from Wis bonuses, that Mystics use Wisdom to represent this sort of 'knowing oneself' bonus that Monks, and Arcane Archers, and Ninja's of the Cresent Moon, etc., use.
The reason that I say this is because I have always looked at Wisdom as being the measure of how well a char. knows not only right from wrong, but also how well they know themselves, and their limitations. Most of my NPC's that have a really good Wis score, because my PC's really like to play warrior types, are usually the ones telling the group to retreat and regroup. I think the Wis is an excellent indicator of this ability - to know ones inner self.