Here's a PrC by PrC summary of what I've thought of. I'd like to hear your ideas.
Arcane Archer: Elves mix sword and sorcery in Krynn, don't they? They're notorious for it in other worlds.
Arcane Trickster: Role already filled by the spellfilch prestige class.
Archmage: There are powerful archmages in Krynn, so I thought I'd allow this one (and I'm still wondering why Dalamar doesn't have levels in this PrC).
Assassin: Although this won't be allowed for players (due to the alignment requirement), I was interested if there were any known assassin guilds in Ansalon.
Blackguard: I don't see a need for this one (and it wouldn't be for players, anyway). The roles of the blackguard ("dark knight" and "fallen paladin") are already filled by the Knights of Neraka and the rogue knight.
Dragon Disciple: Half-dragons are really super rare in Krynn, right? So this class is kinda unappropriate, right?
Duelist: For those fighters who follow Branchala.
Dwarven Defender: Perfect fit fot the Thorbardin dwarves.
Eldritch Knight: Aside from the Knights of the Thorn and the possible elven warrior-magi, are there any other known groups that might use this class?
Hierophant: High priests and paragons of mysticism. One can't really allow the archmage and disallow the hierophant.
Horizon Walker: Doesn't seem to fit, for some reason.
Loremaster: Worshipers of Gilean.
Mystic Theurge: There were some sort of hybrid mage/mystics in SAGA, weren't there? So this fits too.
Shadowdancer: Not at all sure about this one.
Thaumaturgist: How common is divine summoning in Krynn?
So that's it. Your thoughts and ideas are welcome.
loremasters are easy- just look at bertrem and friends.
Thought it would give a twist to a PrC i like.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
No Eldritch Knights though....I just dont see it fitting at all.
How so? There are other warrior-mage groups than just the Knights of the Thorn, aren't there?
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Archmage: There are powerful archmages in Krynn, so I thought I'd allow this one (and I'm still wondering why Dalamar doesn't have levels in this PrC).
I think the Archmage fits Dragonlance quite well (especially with its High Arcana abilities). I think I would use this to represent members of the Conclave.
While there’s no harm using this for sorcerers, I would personally not allow this for sorcerers just to maintain a bit of setting flavor.
Blackguard: I don't see a need for this one (and it wouldn't be for players, anyway). The roles of the blackguard ("dark knight" and "fallen paladin") are already filled by the Knights of Neraka and the rogue knight.
For the most part, this is true. However, there’s one possibility that you may not have considered.
What about the Black Guard? These guys were basically the elite of Takhisis’ army during the Third Dragon War in the time of Huma. I’m sure some were just fighters, but there’s not enough detail to know whether any had clerical powers or not. Seems to me they might fit for the upper echelon of the Black Guard.
Dragon Disciple: Half-dragons are really super rare in Krynn, right? So this class is kinda unappropriate, right?
Half-dragons do not exist on Krynn, according to Margaret Weis. Their role is filled by that of draconians. Also, sorcerers in Krynn do not gain their power from “dragon blood”, so that also puts the kibosh on this.
No harm in using this in your home games, though.
Duelist: For those fighters who follow Branchala.
Swashbucklers exist on Krynn, as they do with other settings. Perhaps also use the Swashbuckler base class (Complete Warrior?), and maybe multiclass with mariner for additional flavor.
Dwarven Defender: Perfect fit fot the Thorbardin dwarves.
Seems to me this would fit Kharas quite well.
Eldritch Knight: Aside from the Knights of the Thorn and the possible elven warrior-magi, are there any other known groups that might use this class?
This is one class that I have trouble with in Dragonlance. It could work for a fighter/sorcerer.
The name insinuates that this should be some sort of Knight, and it doesn’t fit any of the knightly orders save for the Thorn Knights. It could be used to supplement Thorn Knight levels at higher levels.
Hierophant: High priests and paragons of mysticism. One can't really allow the archmage and disallow the hierophant.
I’m not sure if this would fit for mystics or not. The description makes it sound like this class gains extra abilities due to a deity. Then again, this class was not designed with the mystic in mind, so it may fit in that way.
Loremaster: Worshipers of Gilean.
I used this for a character I played back in 2e (an Irda wizard/bard). As that combo no longer works in 3e and as I only used the wizard spell progression, the transition to Wizard/WoHS/Loremaster was only logical.
I think this could fit wizards quite well, and would also be good for Academy Sorcerers. There’s many places this could fit in. Good fit for DL, especially since the past is wrapped up in mystery.
Mystic Theurge: There were some sort of hybrid mage/mystics in SAGA, weren't there? So this fits too.
Ah, you should check out my article on them.
Mystic Theurges of Krynn
I think that fits the role of a Hybrid Mage quite well. The article includes a Hybrid Mage feat as well.
Arcane Archer: I really don't see the elves of Krynn having this class, so I don't think this exists.
Archmage: You don't need this as you have the WoHS. You only need the one class.
Assassin: I don't think this class is needed at all. Just play a rogue who specilises in assassination.
Blackguard: If you allow Paladins in your DL game then this one fits, as their opposite number. Otherwise the KoS have the KoN as their opponents.
Dragon Disciple: Extremely rare but I think they would appear once the OverLords become dominant. Call it primal draconic sorcery eminating from their magic.
Duelist: Not needed. Just play this concept with a fighter or rogue.
Dwarven Defender: Perfect for DL, and the dwarves of Thorbardin.
Hierophant: Until we get some DL specific clerical PrC's this is a suitable choice.
Horizon Walker: I don't think this fits any setting very well.
Loremaster: With Krynn's rich history this is a perfect class, and it fits the Ascetics of the Palanthus Library well.
Mystic Theurge: Apart from being too powerful, this doesn't fit IMO.
Shadowdancer: Theres no reference to anything like this on Krynn as far as I know and I don't think it fits too well anyway.
Thaumaturgist: As with the Archmage, you don't need this. You already have WoHS.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
This is one class that I have trouble with in Dragonlance. It could work for a fighter/sorcerer.
The name insinuates that this should be some sort of Knight, and it doesn’t fit any of the knightly orders save for the Thorn Knights. It could be used to supplement Thorn Knight levels at higher levels.
The name's the only thing knightly about the class. Rename it "eldritch warrior" and you're good to go.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by SweetMeats
Thaumaturgist: As with the Archmage, you don't need this. You already have WoHS.
We already have the Wizard of High Sorcery for divine summoning?
What I was saying (or trying to) is that its not needed as a prestige class. Its already covered with a base class and doesn't really fit DL.
I know what was said in the other thread that WotC have changed the concept behind PrC's but I think you really do need to be strict on prestige classes and not just allow them for the sake of it.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
Dragon Disciple: Extremely rare but I think they would appear once the OverLords become dominant. Call it primal draconic sorcery eminating from their magic.
I don't konw about this. It's been specifically said that there are no half-dragons in Dragonlance. I guess you could use the PrC for DRagonspawn & Draconians on some kind of spiritual quest to become more Draconic?
Mystic Theurge: Apart from being too powerful, this doesn't fit IMO.
I think this would be a perfectly acceptable PrC, just not for Clerics or Wizards. It would be mostly for Sorcerer/Mystics. (Them being too powerful is probably a discussion for another thread).
As for Eldritch Knights (and by extension Spellswords & Havoc Mages I guess) I think this is very interesting. My DM said a lot of things similar to what was said here, that the PrC wasn't appropriate to Dragonlance. My question is why? From reading posts it seems there is kind of this "New Dragonlance Players vs. Old Dragonlance Players" thing going on. While I agree these are not appropriate PrCs for WoHS, personally (and I know I'm going unpopular saying this) I don't care much about them. I think these are great PrCs, maybe even fairly common choices, for the new Primal Sorcerers of the Age of Mortals. Primal Sorcerers having no real traditions and likley facing prejudice from the WoHS may often pick up the sword to use side-by-side with thier magics. I think a lot of the older Dragonlance players look at things from more of a perspective of the War of the Lance where they automaticly think of WoHS & HOoS when they think of arcane and divine spellcasters, respectivley. I think there are a lot of options and PrCs that are very inapropriate for those two groups but work very well with the new Age's Primal Sorcerery and Mysticism.
Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel
Primal Sorcerers having no real traditions and likley facing prejudice from the WoHS may often pick up the sword to use side-by-side with thier magics. I think a lot of the older Dragonlance players look at things from more of a perspective of the War of the Lance where they automaticly think of WoHS & HOoS when they think of arcane and divine spellcasters, respectivley. I think there are a lot of options and PrCs that are very inapropriate for those two groups but work very well with the new Age's Primal Sorcerery and Mysticism.
That’s the beauty of sorcery and mysticism. The two types of magic give a lot of new options for Dragonlance. Plus, having all four types of magic together really help to give various prestige classes new flavor.
Let’s look at some of the DMG prestige classes, for example. The arcane trickster is one that just doesn’t seem to fit the feel of the Wizards of High Sorcery all that well. From a War of the Lance perspective, it isn’t a very world-friendly choice. Yet place this in the Age of Mortals, and it makes a great choice for sorcerers (especially kender sorcerers!).
So by this logic, sorcery and mysticism open doors for prestige classes that wouldn’t have fit the Dragonlance setting in ages past.
Some prestige classes already seem to fit in Dragonlance as well. As I mentioned earlier, I think the archmage is a nifty prestige class for use with the WoHS, and are perfect for representing members of the Conclave. Likewise, the Mystic Theurge already does much to represent the feel of a Hybrid Mage for sorcerers and mystics.
That’s the beauty of Dragonlance in the post-WoS era. It has much of the classic feel, yet is open to more player options than ever before.
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Here's a PrC by PrC summary of what I've thought of. I'd like to hear your ideas.
Another fun thread. Here are my ideas on the matter.
Arcane Trickster: I wonder, I pretty much think everybody allows both (since they are pretty much interchangeable) but which one is better in terms of flavour and rules balance?
Archmage: Archmages are interesting, though ironically this class probably fits sorcerers on Krynn better than it does wizards. After all, you have all the classic 5th Age stuff about shaping spells, the choosing of different elemental energy types to go into the spell, and of course spellfire. However, since spell shaping is not present in DL's current 3e sorcerers, then we don't have to worry about it anymore. As well, applying the term "archmage" to DL sorcerers would just be too confusing.
On the other hand, it also fits on to sorcerers extremely well, and would also be perfect for representing "Scions" for those of you playing Age of Dreams campaigns.
Assassin: You asked about any assassins guilds on Ansalon, and well I can only answer that the setting is so underdeveloped the only criminal organization considered canonical is the Thieves' Guild of Palanthas. If you really dig deep into a non-canonical source called "New Beginnings" you'll see the Blue Circle, a gang of smugglers thieves and assassins operating out of Lemish.
Now I just thought I'd note that Dragonlance is probably the only world that benefitted from the silly decision to turn assassins into spontaneous casters. In other worlds it makes no sense, because it expects us to believe that every assassin is born with innate magical talent. In Dragonlance however, sorcery is learned not innate. As well, with the assassins being spontaneous casters, assassins also avoid WoHS entanglements.
Blackguard: I use these for the holy champions of the various churches of the dark gods. Sargonnas, Morgion, Zeboim, and the rest are not served by the Knights of Nereka, only Takhisis was. Likewise, there are gods of good that are not worshipped by the Knights of Solamnia either. Saying that the Knights of Nereka and the Knights of Solamnia have replaced the blackguard and paladin is like saying the Zhentarim and Purple Dragon Knights have replaced the paladin and blackguard in the Forgotten Realms.
You need holy and unholy warriors for all the gods, all the races, and all the nations. The Knights of Solamnia are not that. The Knights of Nereka are not that. So why claim that they have replaced the blackguard and paladin? It makes no sense to me.
Dragon Disciple: I replace the sorcerer level requirement with the special requirement of service to a dragon of great wyrm size or greater. That allows for good dragonspawn PC's, or neutral dragonspawn who serve the smarter chromatic dragons who are not destroying everything in sight and actually rule their region relatively well (ala Lorrinar/Fume).
Eldritch Knight: This is actually perfect for a band of renegades I created just to show that the conclave isn't all powerful. They are basically an elite military unit who are masters of battle-magic, which makes for a problem that the conclave couldn't deal with without considerable cost to themselves.
Horizon Walker: The Horizon Walker is interesting, because it involves planar travel, which has never been a part of Dragonlance adventures, as it has in FR or Greyhawk. However, Dragonlance does have planes of existence that creatures inhabit and adventurers can visit. So while I don't see it being used often in Dragonlance campaigns, I don't see why it doesn't fit or we have to disallow it.
Shadowdancer: I've always been of the opinion that wild sorcery is truly wild, and is not limited to the rules of the 3e sorcerer class and even less than the rigidly structured 5th Age rules. As far as I'm concerned wild sorcery can be studied like the Academy Students do, but it can also be sung (bards), danced (shadow dancers), manifest due to anger (rage mage) and all the other prestige classes in your splat books.
Thaumaturgist: Dragonlance is all about the gods, so summoning your Astral Dragons and Fireshadows and such are probably fairly common in the conflicts between good and evil.
Now there are many prestige classes in the DMG and splat books (Horizon Walker, Eldritch Knight, Shadow Dancer) that involve abilities that haven't really been explored in the dragonlance world before. They are in a grey area in that there is nothing to specifically prohibit them, but they aren't really what we expect to see in dragonlance. I say don't worry about it. Don't bother banning them, and don't bother talking about them in published books. If a player wants to play one, then he'll play one. It'll be a rare character by default, and is exactly the role we want it to take where it doesn't exemplify the flavour of the setting, but doesn't go against it either.
As for Eldritch Knights (and by extension Spellswords & Havoc Mages I guess) I think this is very interesting. My DM said a lot of things similar to what was said here, that the PrC wasn't appropriate to Dragonlance. My question is why?
For me, its not a case of whether it fits DL or not, its (again) a case of it not being needed. If you want to play a fighter/mage then just multiclass between those two base classes. Theres no need for a dedicated fighter/mage prestige class.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
For me, its not a case of whether it fits DL or not, its (again) a case of it not being needed. If you want to play a fighter/mage then just multiclass between those two base classes. Theres no need for a dedicated fighter/mage prestige class.
The eldritch knight and mystic theurge were created to try to offset the problem of reduced effectiveness when multiclassing spellcasters. The eldritch knight allows the character at least 10 levels where the base attack bonus and arcane spell progression advance at a more or less constant rate (after 1st level, that is).
A better solution in my mind is that introduced in Unearthed Arcana - the magic rating, which is a class-based score which determines caster level. Nice fix.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by SweetMeats
For me, its not a case of whether it fits DL or not, its (again) a case of it not being needed. If you want to play a fighter/mage then just multiclass between those two base classes. Theres no need for a dedicated fighter/mage prestige class.
Just like there's no need for dedicated thief/mage prestige classes?
I think that it adds flavor to the game, and allows for you to play an interesting character concept. Not to mention it gives you some flexibility and your character is still effective.
General discussions of prestige classes (i.e. whether the Mystic Theurge is too powerful or not) should go on WotC's prestige class board.
Originally posted by Myrridin
I think that it adds flavor to the game, and allows for you to play an interesting character concept. Not to mention it gives you some flexibility and your character is still effective.
I tend to agree with this...especially for DL....It makes for characters that are not carbon copies....I mean with all these different character classes (PrCs included) there are infinite possibilities for what your own character can be. Which I think is great for DL as it is downright hard as the ninth hell to pidgeonhole some of the literary characters into classes....sometimes new base classes need to be introduced...and sometimes new PrCs to account for power gained through specialized advancement.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The eldritch knight and mystic theurge were created to try to offset the problem of reduced effectiveness when multiclassing spellcasters.
But thats the point, is it not? That if a character wishies to combine the skills of mage/sorecerer and fighter then he has to have that reduced effectiveness to compensate. By allowing a PrC that removes that it makes the character too powerful, hence the problems with the Mystic Theurge.
But, back to the DL side of things... Bear in mind these are just my views, I'm not trying to start arguments anything.
Knight of Solamnia, Knight of Neraka, Academy Sorcerer, Kender Nightstalker, Citadel Mystic, Wizard of High Sorcery and Steel Legion classes.
Now the above PrC's from the DLCS/AoM are prefect examples of what sort of prestige classes we should be looking at. They are setting specific without being generic. This what I'd like to see more of.
Dragon Rider.
A perfect class for Dragonlance. Fairly generic but fits the setting down to a T. I have to admit that I prefer the Draconomicon version for ease of use, but thats beside the by.
Inquisitor, Spellfilch, Master Ambassador, War Mage & Righteous Zealot.
Far, far too generic concepts. These can be achieved by nearly any class as a concept or by multiclassing (Spellfilch). They do not need a prestige class devoted to them.
Legendary Tactician.
I'm in two minds over this one really. On one hand its another generic class but then it fits Krynn rather well considering the number of rather epic conflicts that rage there.
Nomad Shaman.
Nice, and fits fairly well. I can see this class being present among the mystics and druids of Krynn. Still a little too generic though.
Rogue Knight.
A nice class although more suited to NPC's than PC's, not that thats a bad thing.
Solamnic Auxillary Mage.
Now this is what I'm talking about. You have a class that has its concept build on solid setting foundations. Sure, this sort of thing could pop up in any setting but we are not looking at something that can be achieved by multiclassing, and it adds to the class while being designed with the setting in mind.
Now don't get me wrong, I think SP are doing brilliantly in restoring DL to the gaming community, but think about the prestige classes in future products and how they work and compare them to possible multiclass combo's and whether they are really needed.
I'll be quiet now...
There's no way multiclassing or focusing on a specific concept can get you the results/abilities of a War Mage, or of a Spellfilch, or any of the others.
You seem to think that prestige classes are there purely to fill a setting-specific role, which as others have stated is merely one possibility for prestige classes.
You are of course free to do whatever the hell you want in your campaigns, but such a limited approach to prestige classes is in direct contradiction to the DMG.
If you want to limit yourself, then by all means, do so.
Originally posted by iltharanos
You're a bit off there.
There's no way multiclassing or focusing on a specific concept can get you the results/abilities of a War Mage, or of a Spellfilch, or any of the others.
But you can be a perfectly good "War Mage" by playing a wizard or sorcerer and concentrating on combat spells. You don't need a prestige class to do that.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
But you can be a perfectly good "War Mage" by playing a wizard or sorcerer and concentrating on combat spells. You don't need a prestige class to do that.
Of course you can, but by no means will you be as effective a "War Mage" then the PC that takes levels of War Mage.
Any PC with levels in War Mage will be far more effective at war and battle then a Wizard or Sorcerer that concentrates on combat spells.
Some of these character types are not achivable to full potential by multiclassing with only the base classes.
And now that I think of it....Take a look at the Mystic Theurges other abilities....crap for a BAB....I dont see that their saves are any better....all they get is spells...So, they better be making the best of those cuz they arent getting anything else.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
But you can be a perfectly good "War Mage" by playing a wizard or sorcerer and concentrating on combat spells. You don't need a prestige class to do that.
Using this logic...
Knight of the Crown: No need for this, just play a fighter.
Knight of the Sword: No need for this, just play a cleric of Kiri-Jolith.
Knight of the Rose: No need for this, just play a paladin.
Knight of the Thorn: No need for this, just play a fighter.
Knight of the Skull: No need for this, just play a cleric of Takhisis/mystic.
Knight of the Thorn: No need for this, just play a wizard/sorcerer.
Steel Legionnaire: No need for this, just play a fighter/ranger/rogue/whatever.
Wizard of High Sorcery: No need for this, just play a wizard.
Academy Sorcerer: No need for this, just play a sorcerer.
Citadel Mystic: No need for this, just play a mystic.
Legion Mystic: No need for this, just play a mystic.
Legion Scout: No need for this, just play a rogue/ranger.
Legion Sorcerer: No need for this, just play a sorcerer.
Solamnic Auxuliary Mage: No need for this, just play a wizard.
Prestige Class: No need for this, just play a [insert base class here].
Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel
Not trying to push us away from topic or into bad territory but I'm not sure I understand how Eldritch Knight can be banned because it's "too powerful" becuase it's a "hybrid" PrC but Knight of the Thorn is Ok.
Well, let's take a look between the EK and the KoT:
EK gets:
-d6 HD
-good BAB
-good Fortitude saves
-2 base skills points per level
-No new weapon or armor proficiencies
-1 bonus feat at 1st
-+1 level of existing spellcasting at each level beyond 1st (2nd through 10th levels)
KoT gets:
-d6 HD
-average BAB
-good Will saves
-2 base skill points per level
-No new weapon or armor proficiencies
-+1 level of existing spellcasting at all 10 levels
-half a dozen other class abilities, all of which are damn useful (e.g. armored spellcasting)
So what do we have?
EK has a better base attack bonus progression.
Other than that, EK is no better, and is in fact probably weaker then KoT, given all of the KoT's class abilities.
The prestige classes you have listed there are specific Orders to the Dragonlance setting. They are not just a concept such as Master Ambassador.
With regards to the Eldritch Knight.... When you multiclass a fighter and a mage, it balances out because you lose either spellcasting for a level or the BAB/feats from the fighter class. The Eldritch Knight class breaks that balance by giving the character the best of both worlds.
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Using this logic...
Knight of the Crown: No need for this, just play a fighter.
Knight of the Sword: No need for this, just play a cleric of Kiri-Jolith.
Knight of the Rose: No need for this, just play a paladin.
Knight of the Thorn: No need for this, just play a fighter.
Knight of the Skull: No need for this, just play a cleric of Takhisis/mystic.
Knight of the Thorn: No need for this, just play a wizard/sorcerer.
Steel Legionnaire: No need for this, just play a fighter/ranger/rogue/whatever.
Wizard of High Sorcery: No need for this, just play a wizard.
Academy Sorcerer: No need for this, just play a sorcerer.
Citadel Mystic: No need for this, just play a mystic.
Legion Mystic: No need for this, just play a mystic.
Legion Scout: No need for this, just play a rogue/ranger.
Legion Sorcerer: No need for this, just play a sorcerer.
Solamnic Auxuliary Mage: No need for this, just play a wizard.
Prestige Class: No need for this, just play a [insert base class here].
:bounce:
Why stop there? We can just use the concept of generic classes in Unearthed Arcana and boil it down to 3 classes: Warrior (for anyone that fights), Expert (for anyone good at skills) and Spellcaster (for anyone that can cast spells).
There ya go, 3 classes that can represent everything in Dragonlance. It'll be boring as hell, but hey, it solves the problem of the evil/overused/uber-powerful/unwanted prestige classes.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
White Sorcerer,
The prestige classes you have listed there are specific Orders to the Dragonlance setting. They are not just a concept such as Master Ambassador.
I think his point is that regardless of whether it's a specific organization, your logic can applied equally to them as any other prestige class.
All of the prestige classes included thus far in the Dragonlance sourcebooks for 3rd edition cover specific roles that are significant in the novels and short stories. Some are more widely-used than others - there are more legendary tacticians than nomad shamans, but they all serve to exemplify some role which, while covered on occasion by other core classes, may be expressed more fully through a prestige class.
I can understand your reticence to use them, but you should be aware of the reasons they are included. They're not useless filler - each and every one was chosen, designed and presented in the sourcebooks to serve a purpose and flesh out roles which would otherwise be manageable only through extensive use of cross-class skills, inefficient multiclassing or unfavorable feat choices.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I can understand your reticence to use them, but you should be aware of the reasons they are included. They're not useless filler - each and every one was chosen, designed and presented in the sourcebooks to serve a purpose and flesh out roles which would otherwise be manageable only through extensive use of cross-class skills, inefficient multiclassing or unfavorable feat choices.
Cheers,
Cam
I understand that, I'm not complaing that they were included. All I have been saying is that there are far more prestige classes in D&D than are nessecary, and I'd just hate to see DL go the way of most published settings which have 40-50 prestige classes.
Originally posted by cnposner
Roles for warrior-sorcerers also existed in SAGA.
ZING! The eldritch knight is in. Thank you.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
All of the prestige classes included thus far in the Dragonlance sourcebooks for 3rd edition cover specific roles that are significant in the novels and short stories.
Most of them, but I'm not so sure about all of them.
The Spellfilch and Inquisitor for example had no prior role in the campaign setting, and were obviously just classes that somebody thought were cool and chose the dragonlance setting as a chance to publish them.
This is in contrast to the essential prestige classes (Knighthoods, WoHS, Legion) and the prestige classes which capture a significant part of dragonlance flavour (Righteous Zealot, Legendary Tactician), namely religious charisma and great battles. There isn't a lot of deductive crime solving in a dragonlance stories.
Now there are some classes which could be part of dragonlance flavour depending on how the post-WoS campaign is structured. The Master Ambassador isn't really important for a WotL game, because there was little diplomacy, either between allies or enemies. The Dragonarmies just conquered, and the Whitestone forces just actively ignored each other until it was almost too late.
However, the Master Ambassador could be important in a post-WoS game if we are dealing with a lot of fractured emerging states and city states. If there is no continent wide shake-up but rather a focus on the events of those particular locales. That however needs a good gazateer to show us the hot spots and plotlines that are occurring country by country. It would help make the Noble a lot more relevant as well.
Originally posted by cnposner
I think that arcane archers would probably be Kagonesti (Kagonesti elves in SAGA have very similar abilities).
Eh? Could you elaborate on this?
Originally posted by ferratus
The Spellfilch and Inquisitor for example had no prior role in the campaign setting, and were obviously just classes that somebody thought were cool and chose the dragonlance setting as a chance to publish them.
There was at least one inquisitor in the War of Souls trilogy.
AFAIK, spellfilch was a character role in SAGA.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Eh? Could you elaborate on this?
Heroes of Hope mentions Kagonesti elves being capable of producing arrows with enhancement bonuses, etc. There's a fair amount of information about the Kagonesti (and half-Kagonesti) in that supplement.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
There was at least one inquisitor in the War of Souls trilogy.
AFAIK, spellfilch was a character role in SAGA.
Cael, from the Crossroads novel the Thieves' Guild, was one of the models for the spellfilch class. There are examples of characters who would benefit from levels in inquisitor throughout the novels, from Conclave or Seeker agents to spies like Gakhan or Gildentongue for the Dragonarmies.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
There isn't a lot of deductive crime solving in a dragonlance stories.
That's not true.
The aforementioned Thieves' Guild novel contained a Dark Knight inquisitor that almost exclusively used deduction to solve crimes against the city and Knighthood.
The novel, Murder in Tarsis, featured a poet-assassin who was charged with solving a homicide, and he used quite a bit of deductive crime solving.
Those two are just the ones off the top of my head, there are plenty of examples in both the short stories and novels of deductive crime solving.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Heroes of Hope mentions Kagonesti elves being capable of producing arrows with enhancement bonuses, etc. There's a fair amount of information about the Kagonesti (and half-Kagonesti) in that supplement.
How does it say they produce the enhancement bonuses? Through arcane magic or some other means? Any other specifics you remember? Inquiring Kagonesti archers want to know....
Originally posted by Kai Lord
How does it say they produce the enhancement bonuses? Through arcane magic or some other means? Any other specifics you remember? Inquiring Kagonesti archers want to know....
I don't think it's something LIJS could pick up, but I'll look into it.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I don't think it's something LIJS could pick up, but I'll look into it.
LMAO. Dude you're killin' me...
Originally posted by SweetMeats
White Sorcerer,
The prestige classes you have listed there are specific Orders to the Dragonlance setting. They are not just a concept such as Master Ambassador.
With regards to the Eldritch Knight.... When you multiclass a fighter and a mage, it balances out because you lose either spellcasting for a level or the BAB/feats from the fighter class. The Eldritch Knight class breaks that balance by giving the character the best of both worlds.
That's wrong. When you multiclass them, you dilute the abilities too much. I saw this problem when 3E was first released and remember complaining about it then.
Assuming your fighter/mage goes 10/10, he's going to have a +15/+10/+5 BAB which is not bad at all. But average 80 hp, which is just a tad more than a rogue.....but ineffective spells past about character level 12.
Because of the manner that saves scale etc. that character's magic will be useless against the types of threats the character will be facing. A CR 18 monster for instance may be very well have spell resistance and saves that make the character's magic ineffective.
That's why they fixed that in 3.5. It's one of the few changes I personally liked.
Assuming a character goes Fighter4/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10, he's going to cast as a lvl 15 wizard, and have a +17/+12/+7/+2 BAB. But his hp will be 72....less than the Fighter10/Wizard10 combo.
He's not going to be nearly as good in a straight fight as a lvl 20 fighter, especially since he cast armor, but will be better at fighting than a straight wizard. At the same time, he's going to be able to use lvl 8 spells, which will make him more effective against the opponents he faces at that level....though not nearly as good a spellcaster as a lvl 20 wizard.
Banshee
Originally posted by ferratus
Most of them, but I'm not so sure about all of them.
The Spellfilch and Inquisitor for example had no prior role in the campaign setting, and were obviously just classes that somebody thought were cool and chose the dragonlance setting as a chance to publish them.
This is in contrast to the essential prestige classes (Knighthoods, WoHS, Legion) and the prestige classes which capture a significant part of dragonlance flavour (Righteous Zealot, Legendary Tactician), namely religious charisma and great battles. There isn't a lot of deductive crime solving in a dragonlance stories.
Now there are some classes which could be part of dragonlance flavour depending on how the post-WoS campaign is structured. The Master Ambassador isn't really important for a WotL game, because there was little diplomacy, either between allies or enemies. The Dragonarmies just conquered, and the Whitestone forces just actively ignored each other until it was almost too late.
However, the Master Ambassador could be important in a post-WoS game if we are dealing with a lot of fractured emerging states and city states. If there is no continent wide shake-up but rather a focus on the events of those particular locales. That however needs a good gazateer to show us the hot spots and plotlines that are occurring country by country. It would help make the Noble a lot more relevant as well.
The Shifter class from Defenders of the Wild would likely fit as well, filling the role of Changer Adepts and Changer Savants for the Irda.
Banshee
Originally posted by iltharanos
That's not true.
The aforementioned Thieves' Guild novel contained a Dark Knight inquisitor that almost exclusively used deduction to solve crimes against the city and Knighthood.
The novel, Murder in Tarsis, featured a poet-assassin who was charged with solving a homicide, and he used quite a bit of deductive crime solving.
Those two are just the ones off the top of my head, there are plenty of examples in both the short stories and novels of deductive crime solving.
Well, let's put it this way. When you think dragonlance, do you think war, faith, and dragons or do you think of deductive crime solving?
Now, I'm sure you can find examples of deductive thinkers in the novels, or in any serial novel line from star wars to the Forgotten Realms. I can also take the "Complete Warrior" and "Unearthed Arcana" sourcebooks and find a prior example in the dragonlance setting.
A prestige class, by its very nature, is supposed to portray an important facet of the campaign setting. If we didn't have the inquisitor and spellfilch prestige classes would you feel as if an extremely important part of the campaign setting is missing? Not really. Without Legendary Tactician, Righteous Zealot, or the Dragonrider you really do because war, faith and dragons was the center of Chronicles, Legends, DOSF, and DoNA, and WoS.
I'm not saying that either is a bad class. I think they are actually very well designed. What I'm saying is I'm taking issue with the statement that every rule in the DLCS, and every prestige class in particular, needed to be there. Those two classes are really there for their own sake, not the setting's.
Now if we were to do a 3e remake of the 5th Age Palanthas book, those prestige classes would fit right in. The core book though?
Originally posted by Banshee
That's wrong. When you multiclass them, you dilute the abilities too much. I saw this problem when 3E was first released and remember complaining about it then.
Assuming your fighter/mage goes 10/10, he's going to have a +15/+10/+5 BAB which is not bad at all. But average 80 hp, which is just a tad more than a rogue.....but ineffective spells past about character level 12.
Because of the manner that saves scale etc. that character's magic will be useless against the types of threats the character will be facing. A CR 18 monster for instance may be very well have spell resistance and saves that make the character's magic ineffective.
That's why they fixed that in 3.5. It's one of the few changes I personally liked.
Assuming a character goes Fighter4/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10, he's going to cast as a lvl 15 wizard, and have a +17/+12/+7/+2 BAB. But his hp will be 72....less than the Fighter10/Wizard10 combo.
He's not going to be nearly as good in a straight fight as a lvl 20 fighter, especially since he cast armor, but will be better at fighting than a straight wizard. At the same time, he's going to be able to use lvl 8 spells, which will make him more effective against the opponents he faces at that level....though not nearly as good a spellcaster as a lvl 20 wizard.
Banshee
But thats the point. When you multiclass you are not meant to be as good as a character who stuck to fighter or wizard through to 20th. You are meant to lose out, thats how it balances.
The Eldritch Knight PrC is an example of a prestige class that is just breaking the rules by allowing that. The Mystic Theurge is another prime example.
Originally posted by ferratus
Well, let's put it this way. When you think dragonlance, do you think war, faith, and dragons or do you think of deductive crime solving?
Now, I'm sure you can find examples of deductive thinkers in the novels, or in any serial novel line from star wars to the Forgotten Realms. I can also take the "Complete Warrior" and "Unearthed Arcana" sourcebooks and find a prior example in the dragonlance setting.
A prestige class, by its very nature, is supposed to portray an important facet of the campaign setting. If we didn't have the inquisitor and spellfilch prestige classes would you feel as if an extremely important part of the campaign setting is missing? Not really. Without Legendary Tactician, Righteous Zealot, or the Dragonrider you really do because war, faith and dragons was the center of Chronicles, Legends, DOSF, and DoNA, and WoS.
I'm not saying that either is a bad class. I think they are actually very well designed. What I'm saying is I'm taking issue with the statement that every rule in the DLCS, and every prestige class in particular, needed to be there. Those two classes are really there for their own sake, not the setting's.
Now if we were to do a 3e remake of the 5th Age Palanthas book, those prestige classes would fit right in. The core book though?
There are countless examples of deductive thinking and crime solving in the Dragonlance novels, and that simple fact alone lends to the categorization of the Inquisitor PrC as an important facet of the campaign setting. Inquisitor-type characters are nowhere near as prevalent as the Knight, Wizard, Priest character types, but they are prevalent nevertheless.
The campaign setting is meant to encompass as wide a group of Dragonlance enthusiasts as possible, which is why they have provided a range of prestige classes and races.
Some enjoy playing tower wizards, hence the Wizards of High Sorcery.
Some enjoy the knights, hence the various knighthood prestige classes.
Then there are those that enjoy playing urban adventures where intrigue and murder abound and where the Inquisitor is particularly suited, hence the Inquisitor PrC.
Also, while the Inquisitor PrC is located in the core book (i.e. DLCS), the Spellfilch is not, it can be found in the Age of Mortals companion book.
Originally posted by Banshee
That's wrong. When you multiclass them, you dilute the abilities too much. I saw this problem when 3E was first released and remember complaining about it then.
Assuming your fighter/mage goes 10/10, he's going to have a +15/+10/+5 BAB which is not bad at all. But average 80 hp, which is just a tad more than a rogue.....but ineffective spells past about character level 12.
Because of the manner that saves scale etc. that character's magic will be useless against the types of threats the character will be facing. A CR 18 monster for instance may be very well have spell resistance and saves that make the character's magic ineffective.
That's why they fixed that in 3.5. It's one of the few changes I personally liked.
Assuming a character goes Fighter4/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10, he's going to cast as a lvl 15 wizard, and have a +17/+12/+7/+2 BAB. But his hp will be 72....less than the Fighter10/Wizard10 combo.
He's not going to be nearly as good in a straight fight as a lvl 20 fighter, especially since he cast armor, but will be better at fighting than a straight wizard. At the same time, he's going to be able to use lvl 8 spells, which will make him more effective against the opponents he faces at that level....though not nearly as good a spellcaster as a lvl 20 wizard.
Banshee
That's why your build should go Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spell Sword 4/Eldritch Knight 10.
+18/+13/+8/+3 BAB
15 CL
Cast in armor up to 20% spell failure.
Enjoy.
We really have dragged this off topic....Originally posted by SweetMeats
But thats the point. When you multiclass you are not meant to be as good as a character who stuck to fighter or wizard through to 20th. You are meant to lose out, thats how it balances.
The Eldritch Knight PrC is an example of a prestige class that is just breaking the rules by allowing that. The Mystic Theurge is another prime example.
I know that's the point.
But what has been established is that the tradeoff for a Fighter/Wizard is too much. It results in a character who is ineffective compared to his single classed fellows. Even wizard levels contribute to his effectiveness in combat as a fighter. But his fighter levels do nothing to improve his spellcasting abilities.
Multiclassing should make a character more flexible, but less powerful than a single classed character.....not useless.
A character with medium-low hps, medium combat abilities, and weak spellcasting abilities (having 1 5th lvl spell at lvl 20 is weak) results in a character that is flexible.....but too weak to provide a viable contribution to his party at later levels.
I thought at first that the Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge might be unbalanced until I closely examined them, and realized that they effectively fixed the problem I've been pointing out in the 3E multiclassing system for 4 years now.
Other comparisons to look at for a Fighter10/Wizard10 and a Fighter4/Wizard6/Eldritch Knight 10.
We've already looked at hp, BAB, and spells. What about feats? The Fighter10/Wizard10 gets 6 bonus fighter feats, dramatically improving his fighting abilities, and 2 wizard feats to use on any meta magic or item creation feat, plus he gets Scribe Scroll. This is a total of 9 bonus feats. All creatures have effectively 50% higher spell resistance to his magic, and with a max spell level of 5, most opponents he faces will pass their saves and ignore his spells.
The Fighter4/Wizard6/Eldritch Knight10 gets 4 bonus fighter feats and 1 bonus wizard feat plus scribe scrolls, for a total of 6. He also has fewer hp, 2 extra points of BAB, and 5 extra spellcasting levels. So he's now got an 8th lvl spell, but remains a less powerful caster than a 20th lvl wizard by far. All creatures effectively have 25% higher spell resistance to his magic, and are also able to better resist his spells, because he doesn't have very many high level spells at all.
That's why the class was invented. Because it's filling a hole that's been in the system since 3E was released. This is not about creating Uber characters that do everything. Even the Eldritch Knight mix won't be as effective at either fighting or casting as a straight class fighter or wizard. But at least he isn't just wasted space in a party anymore.
Banshee
Originally posted by SweetMeats
But there you are using prestige classes as boosters and not as flavour, which is how they are meant to be used.
The Eldritch Knight/Spellsword combo? Yeah....to me that's going a bit too far. But I have no problem using either/or.
The Spellsword is cool, and better in combat than the Eldritch Knight, because he can wear armor, but isn't nearly as effective a spellcaster.
You have to keep in mind that in this case a character likely doesn't walk around saying he's an Eldritch Knight. Instead, he's using the PrC to allow him to dabble in magic and weaponcraft.
Banshee
But this is really beside the point since such a class combo really shouldn't be in the setting in the first place.
Damn, does this drive me crazy every time I hear someone say it.
Not all arcane casters are WoHS in the Age of Mortals.
If I hear this a few more times I'm going to make my next Dragonlance character some kind of Sorcerer/melee hybird determined to hunt down and elimate Wizards of High Sorcery :D
Also, all these people in opposition to Eldritch Knights & Spellswords, I don't understand how you can be against them and be Ok with Knights of the Thorn. Only Lawful Evil people can be functional caster/melee hybirds?
Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel
Not all arcane casters are WoHS in the Age of Mortals.
Which brings us back to the actual subject of this thread - how the DMG prestige classes fit into Dragonlance.
Had we looked at DMG classes in the Age of Despair in the Time of Dragons, the picture would undoubtedly be a lot different. Some of the prestige classes of the DMG do not fit with the WoHS (and possibly clerics).
However, the introduction of sorcery and mysticism in the Age of Mortals allows for greater use of prestige classes from the DMG.
For example, take the Arcane Trickster. This prestige class, IMO, does not fit the feel of the WoHS. Yet it would seem to fit a sorcerer quite well.
That's the beauty of having both wizards and sorcerers in Dragonlance. This allows one to have the classic feel of Dragonlance with the WoHS, yet to allow options that may not fit them with sorcerers.
You may even find that these prestige classes gain new life and flavor when put into a Dragonlance context.
Originally posted by Nived
A Wizard/Fighter has trouble with saves and penetraiting SR? Oh my.... maybe a fighter/wizard should concentrait on something other than evocation and perhaps go for buffing and utility. But this is really beside the point since such a class combo really shouldn't be in the setting in the first place.
Says who? I DMed Dragonlance for years and there have been fighter/magi the entire time. Especially when we played in Taladas.
Just because it doesn't fit your campaign doesn't mean that it doesn't fit the setting. Even the Chronicles make references to fighter/magi. Gilthanas, Alhana, and a female silvanesti from the modules who was used as one of the options for PCs were all fighter/magi.
Again, all the Eldritch Knight does is fix a mechanical problem in the way that multiclassing works in 3E.
Banshee
You may even find that these prestige classes gain new life and flavor when put into a Dragonlance context.
I agree, I think the Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight become much more interesting in Dragonlance because of the different way Mystics & Sorcerers are presented as well as thier different social standing. I think they would be fairly common PrCs among the Primal Sorcerers of the Age of Mortals. Sorcerers looking for complimetary abilities to thier magics or to diversify thier abilities so they have somthing to use when they are trying to keep a low profile and not use magics. I think it also makes sense as they have no tradition to keep them on a straight course like thw WoHS, they would be more likley do deviate of the path and pick up side-skills.
Originally posted by Fiendish Dire Weasel
Also, all these people in opposition to Eldritch Knights & Spellswords, I don't understand how you can be against them and be Ok with Knights of the Thorn. Only Lawful Evil people can be functional caster/melee hybirds?
The Knights of the Thorn are a part of Dragonlance. The Eldritch Knight isn't, and doesn't need to be. The alignment doesn't matter. By looking at alignment, you are seeing it in a game sense not a setting sense, and thats why people seem to use prestige classes wrong.
If the Knights of the Thorn turn out to be the only prestige class that allows for decent caster/melee types then that is fine, because it gives them a niche in Dragonlance.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
The Knights of the Thorn are a part of Dragonlance. The Eldritch Knight isn't, and doesn't need to be. The alignment doesn't matter. By looking at alignment, you are seeing it in a game sense not a setting sense, and thats why people seem to use prestige classes wrong.
If the Knights of the Thorn turn out to be the only prestige class that allows for decent caster/melee types then that is fine, because it gives them a niche in Dragonlance.
That's not true. The Chronicles themselves discuss the presence of elven fighter/magi, as do the Elven Nations trilogy, and the 2nd Generation novel as well.
So, yes, the Eldritch Knight does exist. All it is, is a fancy name for a prestige class created to make the multiclass combo viable, because of a problem with the multiclassing rules in 3E.
The Eldritch Knight belongs as much as the Thorn Knight does.
Banshee
Originally posted by Banshee
That's not true. The Chronicles themselves discuss the presence of elven fighter/magi, as do the Elven Nations trilogy, and the 2nd Generation novel as well.
So, yes, the Eldritch Knight does exist. All it is, is a fancy name for a prestige class created to make the multiclass combo viable, because of a problem with the multiclassing rules in 3E.
The Eldritch Knight belongs as much as the Thorn Knight does.
Banshee
I don't think you are understanding what I am trying to say. I'm not saying that caster/fighter types don't exist. What I am saying is that you do not need a generic prestige class to play one.
The Thorn Knights are part of an order/organisation that exists on Krynn so a PrC for that is suitable.
>Link<
Now, I just need to invent a prestige class for arcane Solamnic Knights...
Originally posted by pddisc
Now, I just need to invent a prestige class for arcane Solamnic Knights...
Or just use the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage from Age of Mortals.
:D
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Which is where the Eldritch Knight comes in....As a matter of fact I had disallowed that one in my game...but after the arguements presented I think Im going to let it back in.
The eldritch knight and mystic theurge are allowed in my campaign, but the simple fact is that they're as boring as all get out, so I don't expect any of my players to take them.
Cheers,
Cam
Or just use the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage from Age of Mortals.
Nah, that's for WoHS who join the Solamnics, I was going for a Rose Knight variant with sorcery...
Says who? I DMed Dragonlance for years and there have been fighter/magi the entire time. Especially when we played in Taladas.
Just because it doesn't fit your campaign doesn't mean that it doesn't fit the setting. Even the Chronicles make references to fighter/magi. Gilthanas, Alhana, and a female silvanesti from the modules who was used as one of the options for PCs were all fighter/magi.
According to the DCLS, Alhana is a 5th level Noble/7th level fighter, with no magical abilities. Elven fighter/mages certainly existed long before the Chaos War (e.g. Samar), but their magical abilities must have been fairly limited: otherwise they would have been hunted down as renegades by the Orders of High Sorcery (at least in Ansalon: in Taladas, where the Orders of High Sorcery were never very powerful, fighter/mages were much more common; especially the elven Silvanaes Qualith). With the rise of primal sorcery in the Fifith Age, the restrictions were lifted; the Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, and Bladesinger PrCs might well be used for such characters. Also, I agree that it is unfair to allow such combinations to evil characters (such as Knights of the Thorn), while disallowing them to other alignments.
Originally posted by cnposner
According to the DCLS, Alhana is a 5th level Noble/7th level fighter, with no magical abilities. Elven fighter/mages certainly existed long before the Chaos War (e.g. Samar), but their magical abilities must have been fairly limited: otherwise they would have been hunted down as renegades by the Orders of High Sorcery (at least in Ansalon: in Taladas, where the Orders of High Sorcery were never very powerful, fighter/mages were much more common; especially the elven Silvanaes Qualith). With the rise of primal sorcery in the Fifith Age, the restrictions were lifted; the Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, and Bladesinger PrCs might well be used for such characters. Also, I agree that it is unfair to allow such combinations to evil characters (such as Knights of the Thorn), while disallowing them to other alignments.
Look at the history of Dragonlance. I have most of the books from 1st Ed. on, starting with the DLA hardcover.
Gilthanas was a Fighter5/Wizard 9 by the end of the Chronicles modules I believe.
Alhana was a Fighter4/Wizard7 or something like that..
The other Silvanesti PC from the Chronicles modules was a Fighter4/Wizard 9 by the end as well, IIRC. I just can't remember her name..
There are plenty of instances and examples of what I'm saying. Maybe you don't have as many DL books and don't have access to that info, but it's there.
Banshee
Originally posted by Banshee
Alhana was a Fighter4/Wizard7 or something like that..
The other Silvanesti PC from the Chronicles modules was a Fighter4/Wizard 9 by the end as well, IIRC. I just can't remember her name..
Alhana was a single-classed 7th-level fighter.
The other Silvanesti chick was Serinda Elderwood.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
I don't think you are understanding what I am trying to say. I'm not saying that caster/fighter types don't exist. What I am saying is that you do not need a generic prestige class to play one.
The Thorn Knights are part of an order/organisation that exists on Krynn so a PrC for that is suitable.
I understand what you're saying, and I'm disagreeing with you
Yes, the Fighter/Wizard types do exist (as you admit), but in order to play one effectively, it's a good idea to use the Eldritch Knight PC....that's what it was created for. To fix a problem in the multiclassing system.
As it stands, multiclassing a spellcaster greatly decreases their spelllcasting abilities, but only decreases the abilities of the other class to a lesser degree. So it's not balanced.
All the EK is there for is to fix that problem, and allow a player to make a viable contribution in the role of Fighter/Magi to his party, etc.
Prestige Classes don't always need to be part of an organization. Sometimes they are simply tools to allow you to better play a role you're already working on.
There are plenty of other classes like that out there, throughout D20.
I'm thinking back to another good example....the Daring Fool from Swashbuckling Adventures. Is there a League of Daring Fools meeting every Thursday out there in the world of Theah? No. Instead, the Daring Fool Prestige Class was created to allow a character to gain abilities that allow him to be the type of character who dashes in and succeeds (or fails) by crazy luck instead of tonnes of training, so he can do all kinds of stuff like jumping off chandeliers, surviving falls....until his luck runs out. He won't call himself a Daring Fool.......but that's how the player will play the character..
The Eldritch Knight is the same way.....as is the Mystic Theurge. They both simply fix the mechanical issues involved in multiclassing spellcasters, to allow the player to run their mystic/sorcerer or fighter/wizard or whatever, which you've admitted do exist in Dragonlance
The Thorn Knights are a completely separate issue, because they aren't simply fighter/wizards....they are their own order, with their own abilities.
Banshee
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Alhana was a single-classed 7th-level fighter.
The other Silvanesti chick was Serinda Elderwood.
Ah, my bad with Alhana....I was sure she was a spellcaster.
Serinda Elderwood.....that was the name. The other one I remember was Waylorn Wyvernsbane, who also appeared in the modules, but not in the novels. He was the druid who thought he was Huma reincarnated.
Banshee
Originally posted by Banshee
I understand what you're saying, and I'm disagreeing with you
Banshee
Thats cool.
Its not my intent to cause arguments over it, and I know everyone has different opinions on this sort of thing.
I don't think this is the route we should be taking in regards to the DMG prestige classes. One of the purposes of the DMG prestige classes is to present prestige classes that can be inserted into any world. As such, you'll find the blackguard (example) in Greyhawk, or the Forgotten Realms, or a person's own homebrew setting.
The essential prestige classes for Dragonlance are in the DLCS. Anything beyond is extra. They're the "whip cream on the sundae". ;)
So, when you ask if the Eldritch Knight, Blackguard, Mystic Theurge, etc. etc. exist on Krynn, you may find that the asnwer is, "They can, but you don't have to use them if you don't want."
DMG Prestige Classes in Dragonlance
Enjoy!
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Firstl of all. As long as the Dm wishes anything can be allowed. Being a novel fan I always use them as reference in cases such as the one discussed here. My vote goes for the "official" prestige classes that have already been presented in the novels. The rest PrC can be customly (spelling) created by bending, twisting and modifing the rules.
----
Secondly. Being a 2nd edition player/Dm I agree with SweetMeats up to some extent. I do not need a PrC that can be easily made by altering some rules and, in general, by using my brain cells and consulting with my Dm.
I do agree though that in some cases multiclassing results in a mediocre character that sucks in almost every aspect of his selected classes. BUT here comes the glory of the experienced/energetic DM. He will twist/bend rules and talk with you in order to overcome the ordeal and create a viable multiclass character.
---
In general I never looked good upon PrC in DnD. Some do not fit in the concept/atmosphere of the game. Others are just too powerfull which usually results, as SweetMeats wrote, in the players considering more the buffs aspect than the RP/concept aspect..
Any class can be created via role play and a willing Dm. Also, some classes (Paladin, Bard) should only be achieved through extensive role play. Give it a shot next time...
---
Thanks for reading,
Eaglos.
Originally posted by Eaglos
Greets to all! This is my first post so take it easy on me
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Firstl of all. As long as the Dm wishes anything can be allowed. Being a novel fan I always use them as reference in cases such as the one discussed here. My vote goes for the "official" prestige classes that have already been presented in the novels. The rest PrC can be customly (spelling) created by bending, twisting and modifing the rules.
----
Secondly. Being a 2nd edition player/Dm I agree with SweetMeats up to some extent. I do not need a PrC that can be easily made by altering some rules and, in general, by using my brain cells and consulting with my Dm.
I do agree though that in some cases multiclassing results in a mediocre character that sucks in almost every aspect of his selected classes. BUT here comes the glory of the experienced/energetic DM. He will twist/bend rules and talk with you in order to overcome the ordeal and create a viable multiclass character.
---
In general I never looked good upon PrC in DnD. Some do not fit in the concept/atmosphere of the game. Others are just too powerfull which usually results, as SweetMeats wrote, in the players considering more the buffs aspect than the RP/concept aspect..
Any class can be created via role play and a willing Dm. Also, some classes (Paladin, Bard) should only be achieved through extensive role play. Give it a shot next time...
---
Thanks for reading,
Eaglos.
So the DM is bending and twisting the rules to make the multiclass character viable. Which is a good indication that there's something wrong with how the multiclassing works. Which proves my point
As the creators of 3E pointed out, you shouldn't be trying to overcome mechanical deficiencies with roleplaying aspects.
That's what the Eldritch Knight, for example, was created for. A mechanical fix to a mechanical problem.
Banshee
We end up using the rules that suit us and modify the rest.Thank you for reading,
Eaglos.
Eldritch Knight? If I recall, they give up, from the Wizard side, what, 1 Caster Level (2 if you count the one level needed for All Martial Prof), and 2 or 3 Meta feats, and better familiars (familiard stink, anyway, and should make you lose a level if they die, and there shouldn't be 'familiar carrying pouches or whatever they are)? They gain...more HP and MUCH better BAB. I think I will make one, and name him "Twinkie." They can still cast 9th level spells, and, are only behind a 20th level Fighter in BAB by 3 or 4 (Wizard 7/Fighter3/Eldritch 10). So, they can cast Time Stop, buff themselves with who knows what, and be a better fighter than a fighter, while still being able to drop fireballs and everything else....whatever.
BUT, to stay on topic. The DM is the sole Judge of what can be used in DL. DL has a very unique styel and feel, so certain classes fit, and others don't. The ones that do not have very many flashy abilities I think would be generally okay, while some duplicate too much existing classes/PrCs (Divine Champion is a little too close to the KoS, even though you can follow any deity with Divine Champion). The completely esoteric ones, that I believe shouldn't exist at all (Candle Caster or whatever it was) as it really goes agains the style of DL.
Ones I think that are really suited to DL are:
Assassin
Duelist
Dwarven Defender
Weapons Master/Kensei(3.0)
Archmage
Hierophant
Bladesinger
Cavalier (even though they are too limited in abilities)
Darkwood Stalker (tweak the Ancient Foe a little)
Warchanter (I really like this class in general, and a fighter/bard/warchanter would fit in great with the KoS, so long as they could abide his Neutrality, or even just the Bard/Warchanter)
Select classes from the Draconomicon, depending on the time setting, obviously.
There are others out there, like the Contemplative, Elemental Savant
I believe that the Conclave's restrictions over weapons should be upheld.
That would mean only using a dagger or a quarterstaff, which in turn would mean you would not have WoHS spellswords or eldritch knights, unless they used the dagger or quarterstaff.
OK, it'd limit player options... but if they wanted to play something that broke those rules, they'd have to be renegade, and it wouldn't be until they're a high enough level to be an effective wizard/fighter that the Conclave would go after them. After all, they're retarding their growth as a wizard, and it's the wizard bit that would draw the attention. Not casting flashy spells as well would mean it would take longer to find and do something about the caster.
Earlier on this thread, someone suggested that eldritch knight didn't have to be an organisation, but was rather a state of mind. Well, why not make an organisation of fighter/(wizard/sorcerer)s that have managed to grow a bit since the WoHS disbanded? They wouldn't have had many problems beforehand, since they are going to mostly be worse wizards, and thus not be eligible for the Test, and afterwards, if they are powerful, the WoHS are in no position to contest with them, especially if they've had a load of fighters who have spontaneously developed spontaneous casting, and want to know what to do with it.
Eldritch Knight an orginization? I suppose it could but even if it was, I wouldn't require membership to take levels in the PrC. I'm not sure I see a cabal of warrior/wizards in DL, I could definatley be convinced otherwise though.
------ as an aside...
K_Man said: "They can still cast 9th level spells, and, are only behind a 20th level Fighter in BAB by 3 or 4 (Wizard 7/Fighter3/Eldritch 10)."
Actually, not really. Wiz7/Ftr3/EK10 would only give you access to 8th level spells (Wizard caster level 16) and a BAB of +16. Really though, this is a sub-optimal build, what you probably would want is: Wiz6/Ftr4/EK10 would give you a +17 BAB, still keep 8th level spells (caster level 15) as well as give you weapon specilization and another +1 Fort. Alternatley, you could go Wiz8/Ftr2/EK10 which (compared to your original build) would let you keep your +16 BAB but give you 9th level spells (caster level 17 so only 1 9th level spell, unless you have a 28int) and have the same amount of bonus feats, you just loose one point of Ref save.
K_Man said: "...buff themselves with who knows what, and be a better fighter than a fighter, while still being able to drop fireballs and everything else....whatever."
So you mean... they are Clerics? No wait, Clerics have far superior self buffs than Wizards do (I'm not even sure what Wizard buffs would let you come close to a Fighter's capabilties) and amazing healing capabilities as well as maintaining a fair level of offensive capability. A good warrior/mage build, while having some forbidable offensive spells, still probably doesn't equal a single class Cleric in overall power, not that I'm saying that is a good thing.
Stoneskin, Tensers, Shield....Bulls Str...Enlarge...Limited wish to duplicate any non-mage spell of 5th level or lower, Invis, Imp Invis, Keen Edge, Haste (thank the players that griped enough to get that spell changed) True, mages don't get the mass group buffs like clerics, but they get enough solo ones to make them nasty...
The only REAL downside they have to fighters is the lower HP and the inability to cast in armor, but, really, bracers can almost compensate for good armor, and then toss in a few choice buffs.
Yeah, I do agree, though, that cleric is the best class. Too good. I would say eliminate it to only 1 domain, or something.
You are right, too, my math was off. Pretty close with no books to look at, though. Wiz (Sorc) 6/Fighter 4/EK10 is probably the best, overall.
But, really, all of these PrCs that grant +1 Caster level are too good.
If you are a fighter and take a martial prestige class, you don't get Bonus Feats every three levels to compensate for what the pure fighter would give up.
If I want to play a fighter/mage, that is what I'd play. Fighter/Sorc, actually, since that can be a nasty spell.
Originally posted by pddisc
Hmm. I know it's probably bad to try and limit these things for players, but really, if they want the flavour of DL, they have to try and play DL-y characters.
I believe that the Conclave's restrictions over weapons should be upheld.
That would mean only using a dagger or a quarterstaff, which in turn would mean you would not have WoHS spellswords or eldritch knights, unless they used the dagger or quarterstaff.
OK, it'd limit player options... but if they wanted to play something that broke those rules, they'd have to be renegade, and it wouldn't be until they're a high enough level to be an effective wizard/fighter that the Conclave would go after them. After all, they're retarding their growth as a wizard, and it's the wizard bit that would draw the attention. Not casting flashy spells as well would mean it would take longer to find and do something about the caster.
Earlier on this thread, someone suggested that eldritch knight didn't have to be an organisation, but was rather a state of mind. Well, why not make an organisation of fighter/(wizard/sorcerer)s that have managed to grow a bit since the WoHS disbanded? They wouldn't have had many problems beforehand, since they are going to mostly be worse wizards, and thus not be eligible for the Test, and afterwards, if they are powerful, the WoHS are in no position to contest with them, especially if they've had a load of fighters who have spontaneously developed spontaneous casting, and want to know what to do with it.
Really though...It is possible to make a character who was a member of the WoHS and give him the Eldritch Knight PrC...and still be within the flavor of DL. The character certainly wouldnt be respected by the WoHS, but he could pass the test. Im not saying that this should be a case for every WoHS....but Im betting there have been a few WoHS that have had fairly good martial prowess. And the Eldritch Knight PrC would be perfect for them. THe class also works out well for renegades...the renegade would definitely have an edge on the WoHS that were hunting him. But as I said before I truly think the class works out best for Sorcerer/Fighters.
I do know of a few fighters within the WoHS. Guerrand DiThon For example. Rand was trained in his earlier years to be a cavalier, the Ergothian's knockoff of the Knights of Solamnia. I would give him 1 or 2, or even 3 levels of fighter. Of course, he didn't want to join, and ran away to become a wizard, but all throughout the Defenders of Magic trilogy(at least the first two), he continues to use the weapons he has trained with, a sword and dagger combo. He is also fairly good at riding horses and wielding lances, although he was a pretty pathetic fighter overall. He even brings his sword with him when he goes to be on of the protectors or whatever(I forget what they were called) of this one place(I forget what it was called), which was really a quiet place where they read books most of the time, yet he still carried it, and they said nothing to him. I think that It probably was mentioned to him that "wizards don't *DO* that", but it was what he was trained to use, not a quarterstaff, and while they would rather he *NOT* do that, they weren't going to kick him out for it.
Another example of what I think are fighter-wizards are three Renegade Hunters(I think is what they were), who also appread in the Defenders of Magic. They carried scimitars, and there was one for each robe color. I htink that the red and black ones probably had levels of Assassin(I forget if neutrals can be assassins), and the white probably a fighter-rogue(maybe even eldritch knight).
Also, I think someone mentioned that Gilthanis ended up taking his Test sometime between the fact that he disappeared for years and years and the Dragons of a New Age(haven't read them yet). He was a fighter-dabbler for many many years, and decided to raise enough levels of wizard to take his test.
So, I think that fighter-wizards are fine if they're dabblers, and then they take their test, as long as they focus on magic from now on. I don't think that taking a level of fighter afterword would be *TOO* bad, so I don't know the problem with taking a level of Eldritch Knight would be(the first level is basically taking a level of Fighter), and then afterword, from a gaming(specifically spells) perspective, it is just like taking more levels of wizard. There is no problem here.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
game rules wise Ariakas was a fighter/cleric.
Which, hopefully, will not be the case in the War of the Lance sourcebook.
Also, we dont need to get into another argument of what he his heh. WoTL sourcebook will clear it up like daedavias said. I'm more of a novel follower, so I hope its Fighter/Wizard...with maybe a little bit of Legendary Tactician.