For two (actually slightly contradictory) reasons I have a bit of a problem with the idea.
1) Corruption
The ritual of turning Metallic Eggs into was viewed as a particularly Vile process, one that according to Chronicles almost drove the spying Silvara and Gilthanas insane due to the horror of it. It was portrayed as being a gross corruption, as it effectively gated demon’s into the eggs to possess them. Why then would doing the same process on an Evil Dragon egg change it into something good? Applying an evil action to a evil person does not produce a good thing by most standards of ethics. I thought the evil nature of draconians was portrayed as being a result of the demonic forces involved than anything else. If anything I would have thought that a corrupted Chormatic Dragon egg would spawn something truly horrific, something perhaps beyond even the control of Takhisis. Mmm idea's... OWW! Damn biting those plot hooks....
2) Free Will
Perhaps slightly contradicting my first but but when the Draconians were first portrayed it was as a thoughbred evil race, raised in corruption, the spawn of dragon and demons combined in unholy union, bred only as Shock Troops and terror weapons for the Dragonarmies. However Margaret’s “Draconian Measures” series changed this, portraying them in a rather more sympathetic light, giving them great depth of character (as much as any other race) and the evil they displayed was more a product of their indoctrination, having being raised from “birth” in the forces of the Dragonarmies. The DLCS setting supports this view mentioning the disposition of the current Draconians, esp those living in Teyr.
Therefore if normal Draconians have no real tendency towards evil, why should “Noble” Draconians show it towards good?
What do other’s think? Is it something you may modify for the flavour of your games, or do you think it fit’s just fine.
I see your point on free will. Consider that some existing races already are predispositioned towards a certain alignment. Elves are good, ogres and minotaurs are evil, etc. Yet in each case, someone from each race can go against racial stereotypes. Kaz is a good minotaur, and Dalamar is an evil elf, for example.
So really, the race may be predispositioned towards good, but each individual makes his or her own destiny.
I'd like to see a little more about dragonspawn. I've said it before in a different thread, that I wish they would become their own race. But now with the addition of noble draconians who are chromatic, i guess there isnt a real need.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
To me, the reason they're predispositioned towards good is that two negatives make a positive. This also works in favor of the balance.
Thank you! This is the piece I've been needing to justify how they can be good in my mind.
I guess two wrongs do make a right. heh heh
From what I remember of the creation process, and I could be wrong, but you needed an abishai's soul (not good), a dragon egg (good), a dark cleric (not good), a dark mage (not good), from Emperor of Ansalon, some Zhakar mould plague (not good), and I think an evil dragon may have been required as well.
Considering all this, subjecting an evil dragon egg to the process (which would probably cause some kind of uproar with the dragon required to do it and from whatever dragon whose egg was stolen) shouldn't result in a good draconian. There's demon soul in there, dark magics, mould... although the balance on Krynn is important, I thought the fact that evil couldn't create was another. It isn't as simple as 'two wrongs make a right' - a statement that should only be applied to double negatives.
It was my understanding that draconians were only neutral because of the innate goodness in good dragons serving to counteract the evil of the magics used to corrupt them in the first place. If the 'noble' draconians were formed in the same way, they should be irrevocably evil, due to not having a good part in them.
If the metallic draconians were basically neutral, and raised poorly, why would this lead to the chromatic draconians being any different? At first they would have had the same upbringing.
It also occurs to me that since the noble draconians were made near the end of the war - after Takhisis had decided not to have female draconians after all - they wouldn't've made any female noble draconians, so not only are they incredibly rare and die because of misunderstandings (between dragons and draconians too - evil ones hunting their perverted offspring and so on), but they also can't breed. Unless with metallic draconians, but I don't want to hear about half-draconians, really.
If you want a good dragonrace, I say let all the dragonspawn of the dead overlords regain their personalities, but keep their memories. Far more interesting than just being a new race altogether, which has conceptual problems for some.
But, it's been said before and will again; it's your game to play with, do as what you will. If you don't think there should be more draconians, or want to keep all games consistent, but dislike them; don't include them.
Still, if that's what we're paying for...
Who am I kidding? Everyone who plays DL on these boards is going to buy these books, regardless of content.
And I can definitely see the creation process having gone awry and having made good creatures out of what was almost entirely evil. To me it just makes sense. I dont know if the abishai thing has been retconned or not. I just see it as having been a blunder on the dragonarmies part. And to further it, who knows if there are female noble dracos. We really havent been told, and I assume that it wont be until Jamie comes back and tells us that we know. It is an awesome creature idea...And one that I had played around with in home games....The only thing I dont like about them is that the metallic dracos all had neat sounding names for their species(aurak, sivak, baaz, bozak, kapak) And the noble ones only have venom and whatever types will be coming.
I would have names them with some color type names
Green-Emerak
Black-Ebak
Blue-Azak
White-Ivorak
Red-Sangak
Now those arent the best names possible, but it would have been awesome to have names like that....But, like I said...tis my only gripe with them. Otherwise they are very cool.
Originally posted by pddisc
Considering all this, subjecting an evil dragon egg to the process (which would probably cause some kind of uproar with the dragon required to do it and from whatever dragon whose egg was stolen) shouldn't result in a good draconian. There's demon soul in there, dark magics, mould... although the balance on Krynn is important, I thought the fact that evil couldn't create was another. It isn't as simple as 'two wrongs make a right' - a statement that should only be applied to double negatives.
I think that what makes the most sense, and fits with the ambiguity of the Noble Draconian description, is to assume that the corrupting process "backfired" and began pulling in spirits from lesser celestials to inhabit the new draconians. Once the dark mages realized what was happening they stopped the process, but not before a small group of each color was created and escaped into the wild.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
To me, the reason they're predispositioned towards good is that two negatives make a positive. This also works in favor of the balance.
I see your point on free will. Consider that some existing races already are predispositioned towards a certain alignment. Elves are good, ogres and minotaurs are evil, etc. Yet in each case, someone from each race can go against racial stereotypes. Kaz is a good minotaur, and Dalamar is an evil elf, for example.
So really, the race may be predispositioned towards good, but each individual makes his or her own destiny.
Freewill is after all, one of the many main themes in Dragonlance.
Side Note: I noticed they have new smilies for the boards. Their getting more amusing. I espeacially like the new "bang head and "rant" icon lol
sorry got a little off topic there
Normal draconians are mostly evil (I can't believe they made Slith neutral).
Some of both races are neutral or opposed to the usual racial preference.
Dragonspawn don't really enter into this at all.
I will admit that I was never fond of the notion of demonic spirits (the abishai) being used in the ritual. (That idea was introduced in DL15 or DL16 if memory serves, the same products where Lord Soth had a pet tarrasque and undead Kitiara's detached head flew around at night, dragging her entrails behind her.) My view of draconians were highly influenced by Rick Knaak's story "Wayward Children." The idea to me was that the dragon's soul was divided up and corrupted, but still intact--not replaced with a fiend.
Regular draconians are predisposed towards evil, and noble draconians are predisposed towards good, in my way of looking at it. I don't include dragonspawn in the mix, as they are people mutated by magic, not dragons. Living out in the world has given the original draconians a more neutral outlook, and the harshness of life on Krynn could very well do the same to the nobles.
Just a few thoughts from the guy who came up with this wacky idea.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
I think when you will have good Draconian is this ok. I dont like the idea with good draconian, but i think when it gives a better reason for the zoogenesis or Charakterevolution is is comprehensible. I dont like then ever good draconian, but i accept them.
Originally posted by jechambers
I will admit that I was never fond of the notion of demonic spirits (the abishai) being used in the ritual. (That idea was introduced in DL15 or DL16 if memory serves, the same products where Lord Soth had a pet tarrasque and undead Kitiara's detached head flew around at night, dragging her entrails behind her.)
The abashai connection first showed up in DL14 Dragons of Triumph, which had a sourcebook included for those who wanted to continue with the world of Dragonlance after the defeat (or victory) of Takhisis. It did kind of come out of left field, as there hadn't up until that point been any real specific mention of it one way or the other. The eggs had always been corrupted (by dark spells and the venomous bile of a dragon), leading credence to the corrupted dragon soul theory you mention. Doug Niles then brought in the Zakhar mold plague as part of the theory in Emperor of Ansalon but then that book has a number of other continuity problems as it is.
The abashai are notable for their mention in Dragonlance if for no other reason than they were, in Monster Manual II, described as the major devil servants of Tiamat. The association is fairly obvious - there are 5 colors of abishai in ascending order from white to red, etc. Tracy et al were probably trying to tie them into the draconian story near the end, something which I believe is picked up again in the novel Lord Toede (the two demonic creatures who mess with Toede's life are abashai).
I like to think that perhaps, rather than being the vessels for fiendish spirits, the draconians are as you say born out of corruption and yet they acquire, as do all mortals, free will when they mature. An invocation to the abashai by the Black Robe wizard and dark cleric in the corruption process no doubt occurs, perhaps as a "template" for the corrupted soul, but the abashai doesn't get summoned and placed into the egg or anything like that. When the corruption process is used on evil dragon eggs, this template reacts with the already wicked soul of the dragon and produces the noble soul in accordance with the laws of balance.
Or at least that's how I read it.
Cheers,
Cam
I figure that either the Cleric or Wizard spell used on the dragoneggs had a component to it that acted pretty much like a 'Helm of Alignment Change'. So when it was used on Evil eggs, the result is well... obvious.
Why didn't the wiz or clr know that would happen? Well I assume these are high ass level spells they created, without proper experimentation... even they weren't sure of all the effects they just knew they had the desired effect with metallic dragon eggs.
Originally posted by Knight of the Lily
Noble Draconian. sorry this is not a good idea. And the history to noble Draconian is very poor. This is not balance. then we need neutral Draconian.
I think that all draconians would gravitate toward neutral ... but with their usual alignment as Usual ...
huh? okay lets try it this way ... their alignment is Usually good/evil/chaotic/lawful ... what's that work out to? 50% of a race.
Originally posted by jechambers
I will admit that I was never fond of the notion of demonic spirits (the abishai) being used in the ritual.
I can't say I'm fond of the concept either. It takes away from the idea that draconians are corrupted from dragon eggs. Using demonic spirits is akin to just saying that the dragon eggs provide the bodies, while demons get a handy dandy premade form for use on the mortal plane. I think that some of the romantic flair is lost with that.
(That idea was introduced in DL15 or DL16 if memory serves, the same products where Lord Soth had a pet tarrasque
Fred. Tarrasques have names too, ya know!
;)and undead Kitiara's detached head flew around at night, dragging her entrails behind her.)
Yup, she had become a pennaggolan. They're in the 3e Oriental Adventures book.
Even the novels don´t make the dracos neutral. You have to remember that Doom Brigade and Draconian Measures portrait a draconian and his company of soldiers who are desperate for their race to survive. I know Kang is lawful neutral but that doesn´t necessarily make his soldiers so. They were simply following a very inspiring leader. If I remember correctly there is some mention in Draconian Measures about elven meat and how it tastes...
As for the Noble draconians...well my explanation would be that the three gods of magic - knowing full well the importance of the balance - changed the nature of the spell so that it "backfired" as mentioned earlier. Instead of targeting demons from the Abyss the spell targeted minions of the good gods...
THEY`RE NOT NEUTRAL!!! All gaming material states that draconians as a race are evil - just as elves are good.
From page 34 of the Dragonlance Campaign setting,
Alighnment: Baaz Draconians are usually evil, and tend to be neutral in respect to law and chaos. Many baaz in the Age of Mortals have adopted a more neutral outlook, and a rare handful (called "throwbacks") reflect the good alignment of their brass dragon ancestors.
Look at that, nothings stopping a Baaz, or by proxy any other Draconian from being Good. It may be unusual but its possible.
As for my little suggestion that something backfired on the spell, it's just a suggestion, an idea. It seems to me that the three gods of magic don't write every wizard spell down in stone. If they did why would any wizard experiment... like Raistlin and the "live ones". Wizards can make that god given magic do new thngs, and occationally it doesn't do exactly what they want (if it did why would there be Traag Draconians... the failed first attempt?)
It seems to me you don't like Noble Draconians, that's fine, you don't have to use them. They've never appeared in any novels and you don't have to use them in your games. But you're seeming very hostile towards other peoples opinions and manners of fitting them into their campaigns. Even though you asked them to tell you.
Personally, I think Jamie's explanation has a bit more of a romantic flair to it, but that's another option if you like.
By the way, I just have this vision of a lightning drac holding a dragonlance dive-bombing on top of a dragon.
"Father, I've come for you..."
but the simple approach as to why noble dracs are good would be to say that the magic that creates draconians simply reverses the natural alignment of the dragon embryos.
Yes, it was already mentioned, further up the thread, and I actually find this to be the most likely answer. The balance never exerts itself as a real, true force in the sense of "This massive evil army violates the balance, so the balance itself smacks it down and kills it." So much as events conspire subtly to see to the army's fall. The balance is subtle in all things.
Therefore, while noble draconians may have been created BECAUSE of the balance, that isn't a full explanation. Anything that happens for the balance also has another, less nebulous explanation.
So here goes. Takhisis, when she had the wonderfully bright idea to send her lackies hunting for metallic eggs, handed down a ritual to her clerics that would allow them to create soldiers from them. She didn't tell them HOW it worked, after all, why should she have to explain herself to them? Even the higher among her clerics were still inferior, she had no need to elaborate on her methods. She handed them the spell, said "Use this to make shock troops of the metallic dragon eggs."
She didn't forsee that, at some point while she was occupied, someone would get desparate and start using chromatic eggs, probably thinking "Well if metallic draconians are evil, chromatic draconians must be DOUBLE-EVIL. " What he didn't know, and what takhisis didn't deign to explain to him, was that the spell functioned by shattering the soul of the hatchling dragon, and then forcing the weakened soul to reverse its alignment. Therefore, when practiced on a chromatic egg, the negative of a negative truly WAS a positive.
Thus showing how evil turns in upon itself. The Queen of Darkness' arrogance caused her very clerics to create foes of evil. And thus, the balance was served.
Also, the notion of calling on demons to create draconians is silly. After all, they're capable of breeding on their own, which pretty much says that the writers have completely tossed that idea out the window. Unless somehow the act of draconian sex opens a gate to the nether realms. Pah.
By the way, I just have this vision of a lightning drac holding a dragonlance dive-bombing on top of a dragon.
"Father, I've come for you..."
That...is the coolest thing ever. I intend to play a Lightning Draconian eventually. I will totally do and say that at some point.
THEY`RE NOT NEUTRAL!!! All gaming material states that draconians as a race are evil - just as elves are good.
If it helps your irate opposition to this idea, don't think of them as neutral in the "I preserve the balance and have a neutral code of ethics" sense. Think of them in more the "Live. Die. I don't care, just LEAVE ME ALONE" sense. As far as they're concerned, the other races are just more trouble than they're worth. Therefore, they don't foster evil or good intentions toward any of them.
Hmm. Jamie never did answer whether the noble dracs have females, did he? I think it would be horrendously amusing if, at some point, they stole some chromatic eggs and petitioned one of the good gods to grant them this one, little, one-time favor.....
Also, the notion of calling on demons to create draconians is silly. After all, they're capable of breeding on their own, which pretty much says that the writers have completely tossed that idea out the window. Unless somehow the act of draconian sex opens a gate to the nether realms. Pah.
Ok, this gets a little more complicated, forgive my bad english I am no native speaker.
Of course you could always say:
whats corrupting the (metallic) draconians first hand is the merging with the abishai soul.
Now, after being able to reproduce, this key element of their very evil nature is omitting in the offspring and as such it is much more likely for the offspring to be neutral.
This would result in very interesting possibilities as the "first" generation of dracos is tainted with evil (and still some manage to go against their nature) and every other draconian (second gen and later) has a much more neutral outlook.
Of course, if you go with this point of view, the inclusion of the abishai in the creation of the "evil" draconians was only a tool to ensure that the resulting draconian is evil and no necessary part of the draconians coming to live.
With this essential part missing, the dracos are much more likely to become neutral.
This would be much more inline with the new outlook on the dracos in the age of mortals.
Greets,
Rorin