It wouldnt be so bad if the class itself didnt force you to specialize in a school of magic and force you basically not give up 2 schools of Magic But in the long run 3 schools when you take the prestige class.
My Wizard is approaching 3rd level when he will undergo the test but in truth I do not wish to take the test and Forego another school of magic added to the two I already gave up because of the 3.5 rule change on specialization. I didnt want to Specialize to begin with but My DM insisted I had to or no one would apprentice me.
At this point Im thinking of taking the path of the Renegade Wizard since there is no rule stating I can tprogress beyond 3rd level without taking the test in the new campaign book.
What does everyone think about this? Input? advice? anything is appreciated on this as im kinda stuck.
Renegade Mage may sound like a fun role playing oppurtunity. a Good mage who just doesnt beleive Magic should be regulated to a few select individuals, he may be misguided but not evil and he must figure a way to coexist and suurvive against the orders of magic.
Anyway in my campaign I don't require Wizards to take the PrC when they join the WoHS if they don't want to. They've taken the test, they've chosen their robe, that is enough. However one gains none of the benifits of the PrC, which includes Tower Resource.
However I disagree with you on some matters. These free 'vital' feats you speak of? A Wizard 10/ WoHS 10 would be missing a grand total of 2 feats. That's hardly character breaking considering some of the Tower Secrets, which include such things as Free extend or enlarge meta-magic feats on spells of a certain school with NO increase in spell level. That my friend, is a beautiful thing.
The trade off would be what? A third school of magic dropped, it can be harsh but isn't undoable (and if you're a white robed diviner it'd only be a second school), and if you choose to be a nonspecialist then the only trade off is two feats and weaker familiar. To the two feats thing, I already covered that, as to familiars I hardly use them anyway... except for that weasel my one Sorcerer once had. Weasel Familiar + Familiar Touch casting + Shocking Hands = Electric Weasel, also remember that weasels have the attatch extraordinary ability... that was fun.
Feats to me are important as they allow me to grab item creation feats without spending my few general feat slots on them. I just wanst impressed with the PrC abilties. I never take Extend or enlarge as feats and dont find them useful at all, with my tactics I never need such feats and they can also be duplicated with Metamagic rods.
Sorry but I find it a lot mre useful to continue down a Wizard path then a wizard of high sorcery path.
Heres the path ive planned for my Wizard.
1-Scribe Scroll
1-Spellcasting prodigy (allowed in all our campaigns)
3-Craft Wondrous Item
5-Craft Wand
6-Spell Penetration
9-Greater Spell penetration
10-Craft Rod
12-Spell Focus
15-Spell Focus
15-Craft Staff
18-Skill Focus (Spell Craft)
20-Quicken Spell
Im plannng on becomming an Archmage and with the PrC its just to hard to accomplish without sacrificing a lot of feats.
Once you've taken 10 levels in the class, you're back to taking wizard levels again. Thus, as Nived says, you're a Wiz10/WoHS10 by the time you're 20th level and have missed out on only 2 bonus feats.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by TheGreenGriffon
Actually since you take the test at 3rd level your missing out on a total of 4 feats. One at 5, 10, 15, and 20th level repectively if you continue down the PrC all the way.
Actually, the character is kinda supposed to take the Test at 4th level, since they should be able to take the PrC at their next level. Also, the character doesn't need to take every level afterward in the WoHS PrC, they can trade off if they want, which is shown by the leader of the underground elven movement, who is a Wizard 6 / WoHS 4. Also, since the PrC is only ten levels, you miss only two feats.
[Edit] Wow, both Nived and Cam beat me to the punch on that one...I'm getting rusty.
There are many better wizard tuned PrC's than this one.
Originally posted by TheGreenGriffon
Too true but I dont think this PrC is even worth 2 feats. If I had to take it id take only 1 level of it then drop it for Wizard levels.
You'd drop it before you picked up any of the better class features? Okay.
Cheers,
Cam
I also want to point out that I have dropped the option to be a member of these type of orders in Krynn without taking at least one level of the prestige class. In my line of thinking the PrC requirements are the same as what is required to join the WoHS, or any one of the various groups of knights. I have just ruled that if a character is going out of their way in a rp sense to join these organizations, then it is darn well going to reflect in their stats. And thats what the classes are there for.
Originally posted by TheGreenGriffon
Actually since you take the test at 3rd level your missing out on a total of 4 feats. One at 5, 10, 15, and 20th level repectively if you continue down the PrC all the way.
Feats to me are important as they allow me to grab item creation feats without spending my few general feat slots on them. I just wanst impressed with the PrC abilties. I never take Extend or enlarge as feats and dont find them useful at all, with my tactics I never need such feats and they can also be duplicated with Metamagic rods.
Sorry but I find it a lot mre useful to continue down a Wizard path then a wizard of high sorcery path.
Heres the path ive planned for my Wizard.
1-Scribe Scroll
1-Spellcasting prodigy (allowed in all our campaigns)
3-Craft Wondrous Item
5-Craft Wand
6-Spell Penetration
9-Greater Spell penetration
10-Craft Rod
12-Spell Focus
15-Spell Focus
15-Craft Staff
18-Skill Focus (Spell Craft)
20-Quicken Spell
Im plannng on becomming an Archmage and with the PrC its just to hard to accomplish without sacrificing a lot of feats.
Since others have corrected your error concerning feats, I'll move on to your other errors.
1. Enlarge and Extend and duplication via metamagic rods.
Read closer, Enlarge and Extend are not the only "free" metamagic feats granted by the Order Secrets.
Sure the "free" metamagic feats can be duplicated by metamagic rods, if you've got tens of thousands of steel pieces to spare to make them or if your DM is kind enough to drop one in your lap or if you're lucky enough to defeat enemies that possess them. Even if you were so lucky, a Wizard of High Sorcery of 8th level or higher can use his "free" metamagic feats more often then the standard wizard with the metamagic rods, as the metamagic rods can only be used 3 times per day.
2. Usefulness of the Wizard of High Sorcery's abilities.
Read closer.
The Arcane Research ability: Great for any wannabe epic spellcaster.
Order Secrets: Have you even read any of these? A few are extremely powerful, especially the Red Robe ones.
3. Sacrificing a lot of feats.
Again, read closer. One of the White Robe order secrets actually gives you a free feat plus a special ability.
So assuming you went White Robe, your total net loss from not being a Wizard totals ONE feat. Wow, that sure is alot. Enough to cripple any Wizard. Yes, what were the Dragonlance people thinking? Goodness, I can't believe I never noticed how much they make you sacrifice ... one feat! Oh no, please, not that one feat!!
as for you iltharanos Ive read all the powers granted by the orders and most of them are mediocre at best and the others only slightly useful. My friend who is the biggest DRAGONLANCE buff alive also doesnt think much of them. The balck robe ones are ok but only if your DM allows evil chars in his campaign.
Your right in the end ill sacrifice one feat, so ill give that to you iltharanos. good job there but you also dont have to be so snitty and snide with responding either. Dont appreciate that. Ive been looking at the white robe secrets and youll have to show me shich one gives a free feat cuz Ive read them all and none say they give a free feat, some emulate metamagic feats but dont give you any.
Originally posted by TheGreenGriffon
Ive been looking at the white robe secrets and youll have to show me shich one gives a free feat cuz Ive read them all and none say they give a free feat, some emulate metamagic feats but dont give you any.
Magic of Resistance.
So in your opinion, +5 to Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft, 5 bonus spells known, and 5 order secrets aren't worth two feats?
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Magic of Resistance.
So in your opinion, +5 to Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft, 5 bonus spells known, and 5 order secrets aren't worth two feats?
Don't forget, you scribe two scrolls a day, spell research is 75%, and one can obtain all the materials for building a magic item right there in the tower.
Originally posted by TheGreenGriffon
Your right in the end ill sacrifice one feat, so ill give that to you iltharanos. good job there but you also dont have to be so snitty and snide with responding either. Dont appreciate that.
My bad, I was in the middle of a foul mood when I posted. :embarrass
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
Magic of Resistance.
So in your opinion, +5 to Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft, 5 bonus spells known, and 5 order secrets aren't worth two feats?
Not really. My spellcraft and such are usually high enough I can do without em. I find being able to choose my feats much better some feats grant much better abilities such as Signature spell which requires spell mastery.
Also like I said makes it harder to get that ArchMage PrC which I really want and gives far superior abilties.
Originally posted by TheGreenGriffon
Also like I said makes it harder to get that ArchMage PrC which I really want and gives far superior abilties.
You can qualify for archmage at 13th level, and if you're already a Wizard of High Sorcery then one of the Spell Focus feats is in the bag to start with. A Wiz5/WoHS8 would qualify, and would make a much more potent archmage than a Wiz13. What makes qualifying for archmage harder?
Cheers,
Cam
Also an Archmage must be able to cast magic of 7th level from one school and 5th level magic from 5 others. since from 5th level your magic is restricted to 5 schools now. You actually cannot become an Archmage if you are a wizard of high sorcery.
Originally posted by TheGreenGriffon
By this time you cannot Cast spells from 3 seperate schools. Why bother to evne become an Archmage with such a lousy choice of spells.
That's a matter of opinion, I should think. A wizard who only casts spells from the schools of abjuration, conjuration, divination, evocation and transmutation (to use a diviner specialist as an example) or conjuration, divination, evocation, illusion and transmutation (an illusionist or transmuter) is quite capable of handling any situation that presents itself. Wizards have no real limit on the number of spells they can have in their spellbooks at such high levels, and so despite school restrictions in this case (with the commensurate bonuses to the schools you do have, bonus spells from specialization, enhanced caster levels, spontaneous metamagic from order secrets, and skill bonuses) these wizards put most generalist wizards to shame.
Also an Archmage must be able to cast magic of 7th level from one school and 5th level magic from 5 others. since from 5th level your magic is restricted to 5 schools now. You actually cannot become an Archmage if you are a wizard of high sorcery.
This is incorrect. An archmage needs to be able to cast 7th level spells (which they can do by 13th level), and must know of 5th-level and higher spells from at least 5 schools. Any Wizard of High Sorcery can accomplish this, as they have 5 schools available to them.
Cheers,
Cam
Can we get someone to officially title him "Cam, the DL Sage"?
If there is a balancing factor it is that generally Krynn is a fairly low magic world, hence non-spellcasters don’t get lots of gobly magic items to increase their power (and the wizards seem to have a fair monopoly on magic anyway).
For a radical idea that is interesting to try, you might want to run a Mystic with either the Travel Domain. Allows you to do all sorts of nifty things wizards can. Or Mystic with the Fire domain, blast better than a wizard/sorc.
The enhanced specialization is clumsily handled, and should have been a simple trade of a +2 bonus to one school in exchange for giving up another. This would have been a +4 for specialist mages and +2 for generalist mages.
So yeah, the WoHS class could do with a good solid revision and errata to fix the bugs we all see. Given that SP sells their errata, we might see an updated version of the class in the Towers of High Sorcery Sourcebook.