First is Green Ronin's new Cavalier's Handbook. This is part of their Master Class series. I've picked up others in this series, so I expect this to be quite good as well.
It appears that there will be a base cavalier class. While this wouldn't be good for races like kender and gnomes, a DM may wish to allow it as a base class that prospective Solamnic or Nerakan Knights could take.
Also, I happened across this:
APG Knight Guidebook Package
There's a lot there, so I'll let you guys look for yourselves. Tons of stuff in there, which could prove beneficial for knight characters.
I thought this would be a good launching point to talk about third party products that we use in our games (or would like to use).
What types of 3rd party books do you guys use?
Frankly, I simply don't understand what drives the D&D obsession with rule books. I know friends who buy rulebook after rulebook to just sit on their shelves until they use one page out of it for a specific character or villain. It baffles me. Why throw all that money down the tubes? I've read splatbooks myself, and frankly they are nothing but dry statistics. What is the appeal?
Prestige classes are the worst. I mean, how many campaigns last from 1-20? Very few, and most usually fall apart before level 6, when you can first start qualifying for prestige classes. Add to that the fact that you can only take one or two prestige classes at a time. So why the ceaseless hunger for more and more prestige classes that you will never play? Why is it that which sells D&D books? Is everybody looking for a way to have an unstoppable character? Is everybody interested in just reading the mathematics of rules for their own sake? Is everyone all about fantasizing what cool new powers their character could be having if she was this or that, even if they never get around to playing that prestige class?
I just feel so out of synch with the rest of the gaming community on this.
People collect these books, regardless of the cost, because this is their hobby. If they can't afford it, sure, they might not buy so many... but a lot of people play this game as a dungeon crawl, hack-'n'-slash, combat fest. They get these books so the villains/heroes the party come across can have something new, whcih doesn't require thought or background... just a new prestige class!
I think, really, you know this, but don't play the game that way, so don't need to buy these books. When I go round one of my group's house to play DL, I am constantly amazed and surprised, and a little scared by the vast number of books that these two have brought, and hardly ever use. Or at least, they'll just use an item out of one of them, or a monster out of another... but most of the stuff is never used. Yet still they buy.
I can understand it on the same level as the 10-12 year old me played the game, but these people are the same age or older than me. We just try to have more role-play, I imagine. We don't need all the spare rulebooks, because we can use our imaginations - I mean, how difficult is it to think up of anti-magic manacles? Or things that are normally evil... but aren't - good undead (BoED) or for DL, good draconians?
Hmm. Perhaps this isn't all on topic. So I'll validate my post by saying that any nautical campaign, DL or not, might do well to get the Seafarer's Handbook, which although 3.0 rules, is easily updated, and is the most useful tool I've found when trying to work out such things as 'How many people need to crew a boat 80' x 22'?' (50-60) and 'How fast would a gnomish steam engine make a boat?' (all ships sink at about the same rate).
I'm also a fan of the Knight Errant prestige class in, I think, the Heroes of Light book for Ravenloft, and I think White Arcanist is in there as well, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you plan to occasionally play in RL.
Originally posted by Valharic
I'm also looking at using Cry Havok for some mass combat scenarios.
Cry Havoc (Havok is Scott Summers' brother) is an excellent book, very much worth the purchase. Mass combat was common in the last campaign I ran, since it was based on the 2nd edition Birthright setting. Not only does Cry Havoc handle it very well indeed, but it also includes realm management information for running kingdoms and provinces. That would make for an interesting post-War of Souls campaign, focusing on a group of allied leaders in an area of Ansalon that is no longer threatened by an Overlord (such as Abanasinia/Qualinesti).
Among the other books I have on my shelf which have proved useful to my current campaign are Arcana Unearthed (my wife is playing an akashic, the skill-focused class from this book), Skull & Bones from Green Ronin (more for its approach to social feats and fencing, etc), and of course the outstanding Dynasties and Demagogues from Atlas Games, which has a social conflict system and personality trait system that really liven a combat-free session with action and excitement.
As a freelancer for Sovereign Press I routinely pick up d20 books, most of them from WOTC or companies which I have found to release quality materials. I recently acquired the Conan RPG from Mongoose, which is very nice indeed, and I've got Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Manual on order. Lots of inspiration there for design monkeys like myself.
Cheers,
Cam
It's one reason I don't push myself to get back into D&D gaming, because there are too many rules as it is, and when you have books that are nothing but rules, it's just mind boggling.
Of course, I want worlds and books about the worlds. Rules are fine then, if they go hand in hand with this stuff.
But otherwise, rule books, beyond a select few, are a waste of time and money.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
But otherwise, rule books, beyond a select few, are a waste of time and money.
I think it's probably safe to say you're not the target audience for those books, nor are you really the target audience for this thread.
Cheers,
Cam
I'd like to remain on the topic of which 3rd party materials players use in Dragonlance, whether it be splatbook related or whether it is something that may benefit the setting itself.
For example, do you think that the Sovereign Stone magic system would be good to use with sorcerers and mystics?
I'd rather this thread be something beneficial to DL gamers, rather than a show of negativity towards 3rd party books.
Thanks, guys.
I usually don't buy a lot of 3rd party books, just very rarely. And the few I've bought don't fit too well into Dragonlance. I bought The Avator's Handbook because it had a spontaneous divine caster. This was before the DLCS came out. Also its a little bit different than the mystic, but don't need it in Dragonlance. Also I have Mindscapes to better psionics, but I don't use them in my DL campaign.
The few ones I own I use usually when I'm playing in Forgotten Realms, just because I believe you can pretty much find anything there heh. The Knight book sounds pretty interesting, I might look into it.
Course I got off track, I think that it would be neat to use the sov stone books as a basis for sorcery. I also have liked some third party books concerning dwarves. I cant think of any off the top of my head but I tend to read a lot for ways to help flesh out my dwarven chars. My main use for third party books however is mainly for ideas or historys, as for rules I we use only dm approved feats and such on a case to case basis.
*Shrug*
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I think it's probably safe to say you're not the target audience for those books,
The fact remains that throwing rule after rule at people isn't going to get new people to game
nor are you really the target audience for this thread.
*shrug* Everybody's allowed to have an opinion.
And maybe, just maybe, some companies actually want to know the reasons why people don't get into gaming. ;)
I dont normally use third party products in my game....unless of course you count the SP stuff as third party in a DL game. Anyhow, The reasoning why I dont use the third party stuff is that there really isnt anything I am truly interested in. Its WotC and SP products...Thats all I can really afford anyway. The one third party product that I ever allwoed in my game was the character folios from Green Ronin....on of my players copied it and made one folio for each character in the group...I hated it...It made a mess out of playing, and you couldnt ever find the info needed in a decent amount of time. The folios were like 7 pages front and back.....I just didnt see a need for that when one sheet did the trick just fine before....maybe a few pages kept for spells when there was a caster involved.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
The fact remains that throwing rule after rule at people isn't going to get new people to game
This is an interesting point. New rulebooks generally only appeal to the hardcore gamers who like like looking at new rules. That minority buys the majority of the game books. For example, one guy in my group buys 10x the number of rulebooks that the rest of us do. However, one thing he doesn't buy is campaign specific books like the dragonlance setting.
People don't campaign specific books to get their alternate rules. What people buy the campaign setting books for is the interesting things that are going on inside the campaign setting. That's why the FR campaign setting, though it has more than a few rules, 3/4 of the book is the setting material on countries and organizations.
More rules are only going to appeal to those who are already interested in the campaign setting already.
Also the reason less people buy campaign settings isn't due to the information in them but because they tend to lean towards the DM's side. Of course the bestselling books after the PHB are typically monster books which is odd since they are pretty DM to. Still books with feats and prestige classes tend to be players books so you can sell four of those for every one book you sell of campaign settings.
Originally posted by lugnut71
Also the reason less people buy campaign settings isn't due to the information in them but because they tend to lean towards the DM's side. Of course the bestselling books after the PHB are typically monster books which is odd since they are pretty DM to. Still books with feats and prestige classes tend to be players books so you can sell four of those for every one book you sell of campaign settings.
Exactly. Wizards of the Coast's current D&D marketing strategy lumps campaign settings into the type III gamer audience, those who are already established gamers and probably Dungeon Masters and who want fleshed-out campaign worlds with rules and development built-in, along with the experience to make use of these products to drive a story and create their own campaigns. Adventures and rules-light setting books historically do not sell anywhere near as much as rules-heavy supplementary products, too, so there's little to no incentive on the part of WOTC to release product without additional rules content.
The entry-level gamer (or Type I) is not the target of campaign setting books, and neither is the casual gamer (type II) who plays every once in a while, usually as the player, in a casual group and picks up the core books or supplements that interest them.
Sovereign Press looks ready to address the entry-level fans of Dragonlance with their Dragonlance Adventure Game, which should tie in nicely with WOTC's own young adult line of books being released this year.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
For example, do you think that the Sovereign Stone magic system would be good to use with sorcerers and mystics?
I have always been a huge advocate of Sovereign Stone magic process for 5th Age magic. Especially once I found out SP was going to be doing DL.
Unfortunately...it appears that wasn't allowed (most like because Dragonlance is still technically a Dungeons and Dragons game...I'm guesing)
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Exactly. Wizards of the Coast's current D&D marketing strategy lumps campaign settings into the type III gamer audience, those who are already established gamers and probably Dungeon Masters and who want fleshed-out campaign worlds with rules and development built-in, along with the experience to make use of these products to drive a story and create their own campaigns. Adventures and rules-light setting books historically do not sell anywhere near as much as rules-heavy supplementary products, too, so there's little to no incentive on the part of WOTC to release product without additional rules content.
Yep, it is too bad you have me on ignore Cam, because you've missed the point that type III, rules-heavy players also don't tend to buy campaign specific material. They buy rulebooks and splatbooks for the most part. :D They are the ones heavily invested in the hobby and have their own campaign settings, or have one or two that they are heavily invested in. The hardcore gamers simply aren't SP or any other setting publisher's core audience.
Campaign settings have a different audience, in fact they are precisely the casual gamer and the entry-level gamer, at least in regards to the core campaign setting books. Basically those without their own homebrew world, or those without the time or experience to come up with their own settings week in and week out. In Dragonlance's case it also would be the people who get exposed to the novels and might want to know more about the setting the stories are taking place in. That is why you need a lot of exposition about the world itself, who is in it, what's going on, and such. As I said, that is precisely why the FR Campaign Setting is 3/4 about countries and organizations. For its size, it is a very rules-light book, because it knows its target audience.
The supplementry campaign setting books you are pretty much pitching to the dragonlance faithful alone. If they haven't bought the core book, they probably won't buy the supplements such as the Age of Mortals Campaign Setting, the Bestiary or anything else.