Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 16, 2004 22:19:26	Hi, new to these boards but a big of Greyhawk. Eversince third edition came out I have used the Greyhawk campaign world for my home campaign. I used to own the original box set, and only a few of the other books, but those have long gone to goodwill many moons ago prior to 3E coming. When 3E came out a while ago, I snapped up eveything that hit the shelves for the first few months - including the slim 32 page Gazetter - (of which I am a huge fan of). Later I picked up LGG but have never really used it. I still go back to my 32 page one. Why? Well when 3E came out - I returned to DnD - I had been away for many years - and wanted to try it out. Without any given or printed campaign setting - I bought what was available which was the wee Gazetter (hereafter abreviated wG). I thought it was missing stuff (from memory as no longer had any other GH material) - but I proceeded to fill in the blanks myself. After a fairly successful campaign of 1.5 years near and around Verbobanc - I got the LGG. I learned that my Verbobanc was no where near the Canon Material. (Unless asked to keep from waxing lyrically on my own creations - I have not put what I used - if requested I can dig it up again). But it definetly had a different history and feel than the LGG one. Anyway to make a short story long - I ended up with something that was kind-of Greyhawk - at least it fit with everything in the wG but not even close to the LGG. So how much Greyhawk is in your Greyhawk? I have read a few posts about people wanting information and player's guides to GH like there is for FR. But I for one feel that I don't want that. I think of Greyhawk as every DM's WOTC granted private sandbox. Close enough that it will be recognized by almost any gamer, but enough room to make their own. So to answer my question in my Campaign - there is a lot of Steve in my Greyhawk, but very LGG in there.
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 17, 2004 3:19:19	Unfortunately because it's mainly information and not alot of add ons to the rules the Greyhawk Gazeteer has sold poorly, and as a result of the that WotC has interpreted the lack of sales to lack of interest in Greyhawk and as a result no more books will be published for Greyhawk. Luckily the Living Greyhawk campaign has very detailed information on the world, otherwise I could easily see it dying out.
#3 max_writer Mar 17, 2004 8:10:09	[RANT ON] I personally am sick of every supplement having tons of spells, feats, and classes. I love the fluff (as opposed to crunch - which I've grown bored of reading) - especially Greyhawk fluff. I loved that the LLG was actually about the world instead of just a bunch of rules. [RANT OFF] Now, to get back on topic ... I use a LOT of official stuff for my campaign though I agree that every DM has his own WoG. Another DM in our county runs Greyhawk and I don't consider any of it canon for my own campaign though we both borrow from each other. I also have a lot of Andy in my campaign. Still, I usually try to make it work with the official stuff.
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 17, 2004 12:44:40	I agree, but the fact still remains that this is what most people are after.
#5 Greyson Mar 17, 2004 13:26:01	My Greyhawk is all Greyhawk, as compliant as I can be with v.3.5 rules. I do not stray from published canon and I try to keep my Greyhawk standard. I like the way the setting has been developed over the years. I do convert material from previous editions to v.3.5 when we need it for game play. But, most importantly for me, is the issue is time. I do not have time to tweak, adjust, create and write material, history or events. So I appreciate standard works like the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, material in Dungeon, especially the Living Greyhawk Journal, and some material from Living Greyhawk. I do consider the above sources official Greyhawk fare, in addition to adventures and sourcebooks from previous editions and years, as long as it can be reasonably reconciled. So, given my personal estimation on what canon is, I say that my Greyhawk is very much WoG and very little Don Brown. I am just a scrub, anyway. I don't have any business tampering with a setting that works as published. Happy Greyhawking!
#6 zombiegleemax Mar 17, 2004 17:09:23	Don, I appreciate your view for sure. I don't presume to say that the stuff that I have done is better than what the designers put into the LGG, but at the same time I had run my Greyhawk campaign in 3E for about a year before that book even came out. So that left me with a choice - recon everything back or continue. So I choose to continue. I agree with Max Writer - I also am not a big fan of all the add-on crunchy bits that are in many of the campaigns. But I think the original splat-books were really like the crunchy add-ons? (Don't have mine with me right now - so couldn't be sure) - Were there not some prestige classes that were from Greyhawk? I am not complaining about the lack of material - as a matter of fact if people cast their mind way back to the start of FR back in 1st Edition - it was supposed to be a setting where the publishers TSR at the time were supposed to be putting out a lot of sourcebooks vs. the greyhawk mentality of letting the GM fill stuff in. What turned me off from FR - was when in the original one - they said we will not touch Sembia. That is for each GM to develop on their own. What did they do - the developed Sembia - which really turned me off. I must admit that my two favorite sourcebooks for 3E (besides OA which is a different catergory all together) - is probably the two worst selling the Original Greyhawk Gazetter (32 page one - but like others I was sorely disappointed with the map - I was hoping it would look like the cover - is there any place you can get the map on the cover BTW) and the herobuilders guidebook. Both books are a little light on the crunchness. But that is where I get to do the fun. I like my sourcebooks to inspire not constrict. I really enjoy the freedom of the gazetter. But I too have added some bits - Like the Fight for Onwall from the Dragon Article. Since that was outside my Wild Coast/Verbobonc Main Campaign Area. Thanks for your feedback.... BTW is anyone interested into turning this thread into a list of how your grewhawk differs from the published material?
#7 Argon Mar 17, 2004 23:02:24	Well I would say that my Greyhawk has alot more Sargent than Gygax and even more Dennis then either. But it is Greyhawk through and through! I for one have never subscribed myself towards canon and always tweak things to my liking. read my articles they stray from the setting drastically but keep enough of the original script to be known as Greyhawk. Heck, just my Elves of Oerth article alone caused major controversy on canonfire.com. Yet it is the most read article on peoples & cultures on the site. So I must have done something well! So when all is said and done I would say that my Greyhawk is the way the author would of liked to have made it! But that's my opinion and it works for me.
#8 omote Mar 18, 2004 8:39:47	When running my Greyhawk games, I keep as much "real" Greyhawk in their as possible, as said above, as much in compliance with v3.5 I can be. Mainly, I stick with the Sargent stuff as the (IMO) best canon stuff out there. The LGG is a great comprehensive work that I also base all of my games out of. I also use THE ADVENTURE BEGINS and THE PLAYERS GUIDE TO GREYHAWK for my players as canon. The rest of the stuff that is extraploted on from canon works, like a lot of stuff on canonfire is use as "fluff." One campaign it might be canon for and the next it wont be ~ whatever works best for the current batch of players. But being hardcore GH, if need be I tell my players who are interested in GH, that "this" partiular material, or "that" particular material is is canon or not. ......................Omote
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 19, 2004 14:54:02	Originally posted by GMSteve BTW is anyone interested into turning this thread into a list of how your grewhawk differs from the published material? As a DM whose Greyhawk has mutated quite a bit from when I first started out using the 1980 World of Greyhawk accessory, I would definitely be interested in how other peoples' Greyhawks differ. Probably the biggest difference in mine is that the Suel Barbarians on the Thillronian Peninsula aren't viking types. They're just called "barbarians" by the "civilized" nations because of the "unicivilized" way they act. They're really more like sub-arctic Melniboneans. The Scarlet Brotherhood is a confederation of Suel pirates instead of a secret organization bent on taking over the Oerth, though they still have the Suel supremacist outlook. The Horned Society is a horde of semi-nomadic warg-riding goblinoids who conquered their current lands from Furyondy when they invaded in 370. Oh yeah, and the Greyhawk Wars never happened. If I ever get my material updated for a 3.5 campaign with a new group I'll probably start it out in 576 CY.
#10 zombiegleemax Mar 22, 2004 6:41:21	OK, Below is my alternate history for Verbobonc. Recall that when I did this the only source I had was the 32 page gazetter - so I had to fill in quite a lot of stuff my stuff. Also I wanted evil elves - like drow - but not your FR underdark ones, just plain mean old buggers. Evils with an attitude and a score to settle - so they got put into my history as well. It is a bit long - so it not interested skip to next post. Verbobonc Proper Name - Viscounty and Town of Verbobonc Power Centers - His Noble Lordship, the Viscount Langard of Verbobonc, Defender of the Faith (Male Half-Elf - NG) - His Reverance, the Fury of a Vengful God, Keeper of the Manuscript Archbishop of St. Cutherbert of the Cudgel, Ansil VI (Male Human - LN) - The High Houses of Verbobonc (Various Races and Genders - mostly TN) Law - Lawful Good Resources - Copper, Iron, Gems, Lumber, Trade and Craft GP Limit - 40,000 GP Assessets - 4.2M GP Population - 23,000 - Human 73%, Elf 9%, Gnome 8%, Halfling 6%, Dwarf 2%, Hal-elf 1%, Half-orc 1% Allies - Veluna, Furyondy Enemies - Empire of Iuz, the Pomarj, Kron Hills gnomes, assorted evil cults Breif History Verbobonc started as an elven village long before before the great migrations came east. You can still some traces of its origins in some of the older portions of the city particullary where the last two Elven High Houses of Verbobonc have made their estates. The village was set in the lightly wooded plains on the Velverdyva River west of the Old Gnarely forest. Soon enough the village of only 100 small wooden and sandstone homes and towers started to receive large volumes of Human and gnome traders coming east with the migration, and west from the Great Kingdom. Although many of these travellers stayed and established markets and homes outside the original elven village, the village grew into a small town by 39 CY. The ruler was still the Ageless Comyrllyn who had governed the area since 123 BCY. The elves of the Velverdyva Plain were more tolernt then their cousins of Celene leaving it for Verbobonc over a 1000 years before the common year and Comyrllyn was a wise ruler and saw the way of the future. He did want to become like his cousins in the south, and he could not afford to with such a small elven population. His wife was stricken with an evil pestillance, which some of the town including one of the last remaining Elven High Houses believes was intentionally given to her by evil men. In his wisdom though Comyrlln did not banish the humans as the Elthwynin House demanded, but rather took one as his new wife. He was aged and new that although there was a chance he might outlive his wife, he thought that they could spend the twilight of their lives together, and heal the rift within the town. So started the line of Half-Elven Counts of Verbobonc. His first son Emeroth took the Scepter of Rulership in 98 CY after his mother and father died on the same day. During the funeral, the young Emeroth noticed an old man walking the streets near the Road of Prayers where all of the temples were. The man seemed to appear at his side as Emeroth was walking back to palace, eluding his guards. Emeroth was shocked at first, but the man seemed so wise, so commanding. He pointed out to Emeroth, the sprawling nature of boom-town Verbobonc and those that lived outside the protection of the old city, which the elves originally built on a small island on Velverdyva. Emeroth’s emotions boiled, the old man pointed out the inconsintencies of the laws. He showed Emeroth that outside the small court of the city, the High Houses had abosulute power. They took what they wanted, bordered on slavery, and ruled out of fear. Emeroth was shocked. He sent for his sister from the palace, who was his scribe and clerk. Emeroth, Anna, and the old man spent hours walking in the ramshakle shanty town surronding Verbobonc. Anna wrote down the transcription of the entire evenings conversations, including questions on law, justice, philosophy, methods of governing, the right of judgement and truth. In the morning, the man was gone, but Emeroth had a dream, a dream of a man walking Oerth in the elder days carrying forth a Cudgel which he used to smite his enemy’s. Emeroth asked his sister to research this dream in the old elven libraries. Anna discovered about St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel. Until this time, there were few Clerics of St. Cuthbert. He was a God invoked to curse an injustice to oneself, such as losing in dice or buisness. But Emeroth was certain the man he spoke with was St. Cuthbert. He became angry with the state of the city, the town, and even the Flaness itself. He would start the first temple to this man. Suddenly Anna knelt before her brother and said “My liege, you must govern this land justly as Cuthbert has shown you, you will have no energy for this task. I will take this burden upon my shoulders.” Anna made a copy of the manuscript of the next day, and taking up a Cudgel she travelled east to the Great Kingdom and their scholars to seek more knowledge of this God so she could be made worthy to be ordained. Emeroth meanwhile reformed the laws of his city. He could not wrench all power from the High Houses without plunging the city into chaos, but he did managed to codify the laws into what is now known as Emeroth’s Will and appointed the Three Ministers to advise him and serve as his will. He built the Minister’s Hall next to his palace to hear the grievences of his people where he or his Ministers would hold court. He established his Captains who were the Counts Fists, in the same manner that the Ministers were the Counts Voice. In the outer smaller villages around Verbobonc he established the Sheriffs to ensure a Counts Man was always in attendance, even if the ruler of the village was a lord or reeve of the High Houses. He had to though make concessions. And the greatest concession was formalizing the High Houses. One quarter of the city controlled 98% of the wealth. These rich and powerful people became the High Houses of Verbobonc. Emeroth originally thought that they would die out, as he left no provisions for the creation of new High Houses. In some ways he was right, only two of the original twelve elven houses remain. Some left to Celene, others were killed in the various wars, while others thought that Verbobonc was becoming too humanized. There is only one Dwarven High House left, and many of the Gnome High Houses fled to the Kron Hills. Remaining there are two Elven Houses, Three Gnomish Houses, One Dwarven House, and Twelve Human Houses. The Houses now only constitute 2% of the population, but still control a great deal of the wealth. The halflings who came later, feel a little short changed as they have no High Houses to speak of. Some have called the codification of the Aristrocracy Emeroth’s Folly. But he did limit their power. They may only have ‘20 able bodied men or women to carry arms and defend their interests all others must come from the Captains and serve the (Vis)Count or be considered mercenaries and bandits’. All of the Houses keep their maximum allotment, and all are some of the best wizards and warriors in the Flaness. Twenty years went by since the ride of Anna, and Emeroth had finally regained a just rule in the now growing city. But he still worried of his sister. He finally got word from her from a messenger who came. A man in full armor upon a great warhorse, bearing a symbol enamelled on the breastplate. He would not speak or say his name, but tell Emeroth that he was a messanger from his sister and he bore a scroll for him. Anna had written to Emeroth telling him, that St. Cuthbert was proud of him, and found him worthy. He should clear a spot across from the palace for a Chruch to St. Cuthbert, and she would come and consencrate it in his name. Emeroth was estact to hear from his sister. She would be hear soon, and he hired the best masons of the House Dwerngard to clear the land in front of the palace and start building a great wide plaza where across from the palace his sister would build the first Catherdral to St. Cuthbert. Unfortuantly for House Elthwynin, there ancestral home one of the original elven towers which had since been expanded by their wealth was where Emeroth had decreed the plaza and chruch. St. Cuthbert had always felt that the Elthwyin House was tainted with greed and the worst of the oppressors and guided Anna to build his Chruch there for justice against Elthwynin. He envisioned the Chruch standing opposite from the Palace showing the people that St. Cuthbert would look and watch the Ruler ensuring a just government. On the day before his sister was to arrive, he assembled members of the Ministers, Captains, the High Houses, and people to Verbobonc at the newly built plaza that had levelled the ancestral home of the Elthwynin. Standing on a wooden platform he explained his vision and the twenty long years of toil to bring a fair and just government to the land, when suddenly he was stricken down from afar, by a posioned arrow. The crown turned and saw the heir to Elthwynin appear as if out of thin air, holding a yew bow and laughing. But then the people heard a thundering noise, and the whole earth shook, as Anna riding into the city as a fury came charging towards him. Her eyes blazed with anger and fire, the bards speak of her white warhorse that caused the ground to tremble and with speed so swift caused gales of wind behind it. Anna charged into the heir of Elthwynin and a searing ray of light from her Cudgel struck down the heir. When she stopped with tears burning down her face she turned to the crowd and said ‘I am no longer Anna of Comyrllyn, for I bring the rightouesness of my God, St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel, I am the Fury of a Vengful God. Here I shall build a Temple to my God, and we shall smite injustice through out all of the lands. I curse the house of Elthwynin, to the end of Cuthbert’s days, to mark them such that all shall know of their treachery.’ Anna did build her Chruch, and ruled as regent until her nephew Thomthyn was of age. The House of Elthwynin was marked as she told, such that all of their family, bastards, and even half-elven offspring had very dark skin, almost a purple black with white hair and though they still have a place in the High Houses as dictated by Emeroth’s Will to this day most people fear them and find untrustworthy. Verbobonc continued to grow but each generation of Emeroth’s sons and daughters grew more tolerant and tended for a more practical government than their ancenstor. Although, Anna’s line who are still the ArchBisops of St. Cuthbert continued their teachings and lawfulness, sometimes putting them at odds with each other. Verbobonc was so inwardly focussed during these years that they became unaware of the growing threat of Iuz. Eventhough Anna III had warned her cousin the Count Gerandthal of the impending doom. When Verbobonc was sieged in 503 CY, most of the city was destroyed, and if not for Anna III and the Canon’s forces from Veluna the city would have fallen. Gerandthal was forced by Anna and Canon Denthen of Veluna to swear fealty to the ArchClericy as a penace for his County for being lax in preparing for the Doom. The Chruch of St. Cuthbert gained a little more power as Gerandthal became the last Count and the first Viscount of Verbobonc. The City of Verbobonc continued to grow establishing communities as far the borders of Furyondy, Veluna, the Gnarley Forest, and the Kron Hills, but when the Temple of Elemental Evil was discovered in 565 CY the city fell on dark times. Evil cults had taken control of a lot of the High Houses, and the Viscount Orenthall was under some dark sickness of the mind. Although the Temple was defeated the effects of the battles can still be felt in Verbobonc. Langard and Ansil VI have tried to heal the town and purge the evil, but most of the communties outside of the town could not be saved, and in 578 CY the Gnomes of the Kron Hills declared their independence. Langard would have done something about this rebellion had the GreyHawk Wars not come. His army fought valiantly and many of the Captains are honored in the rolls of history in the Minister’s Court. But the wars had destroyed or desterted what few remaining communties outside of Verbobonc. By 585 CY Verbobonc was not really a Viscounty, but a mere city.